Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Yissachar1
Humour me with a study
I know with your abilities as shown on this site over and again that you will get it and put it in a way better than me

Your comments are very flattering.
The thing is, my viewpoint being a Christian one, that's the one I'm good at expressing.
In any case. there's a Revelation project that needs to be sorted out first.

MY viewpoints are also a "christian" one.. You are very quick to dismiss and neglect the fact that the culture and people that the Word comes from is Jewish.. Yeshua Himself is NOT a christian but a Jew who kept shabbat and the feasts.. Those which are to be kept FOREVER as a memorial and are all about Him and His Messianic agenda.. Yet you would not even listen to someone from that culture who knows for a fact that the message is relevant to your study of this subject and you would gain a lot from it too..

It shows arrogance and a blindness to all but the self..

Yeshua is the Word, the culture and the Spirit of the Jewish people in truth.. It is the very root that supports those grafted into this tree.. Do not boast against it or deam it irrelavent.. God does not and nor should you,

Disraeli,

I've read many of your posts and found them to be insightful.

Concerning Daniel chapter nine, there are many interpretations, most of them variations on ideas spread by John Nelson Darby and some of his contemporaries in the nineteenth century.

Therefore, allow me to present you with a different perspective, one not based on speculation about the future, but based on scripture lain against factually recorded recent events.

Besides the so called "70th" week, Gabriel was clear when he told Daniel there would be 62 "weeks of years" before "Messiah was cut off". He also said there would be 7 weeks of years.

These two time periods have one thing in common: They both begin counting down at "The reestablishment of Jerusalem to Israel". This is very important and often overlooked.

Obviously the 62 were fulfilled. But what about the 7 "weeks"? Many have tried to place these 7 "weeks" in various places, but one thing is certain, none of them began with a "reestablishment of Jerusalem to Israel".

In our time, however this event did occur again, for the first time in history since the return from the Babylonian exile. It happened in 1967 during the Six Day War when Israeli forces took back the "old city".

That's where we should start counting down: 7 "weeks of years", plus one more, the "70th week", bringing us to a total of 8 "weeks" that begin in 1967 and end in 2024.

As for Daniel's (or rather, Gabriel's) "70th" week, it is the only one in all the 70 to be described. It is described with three specific points of prophecy. We know what they are:
1. A 7 year "Covenant with Many" shall be established,
2. A halting of the "daily sacrifice" shall occur,
3. "The abomination of Desolation" will be established.

I'm here to tell you that all three of these prophecies were fulfilled perfectly between the years 1993-2000.

They happened thus:
1. 1993, the 7 year "Oslo Accords" were ratified by Arafat and Rabin (whose name means "the many").
2. March 13, 1997, (3 1/2 years to the day of the signing of Oslo) the "daily prayer", a stand in for the "daily sacrifice", was halted by the Palestinian Authority on the Temple Mount.
3. Right after Oslo ended, Ariel Sharon ascended the Temple Mount declaring that any Jew has the sovereign right to walk on those grounds, inciting riots and violence that lasted for many months as well as the current Palestinian "intifada".

This last one may not make sense until you read the alternate interpretation of Daniel 9:27 found in the footnotes of the NIV and considered by many scholars to be the most accurate translation:

It reads: "One who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city."
...clearly negating the need for a "third temple", instead describing an "abominable temple" (the current situation) and "one who causes desolation".

This is a perfect description of what Ariel Sharon fulfilled. Doesn't make him the "Antichrist". Doesn't need to. It does make him "one who causes desolation".

This event is what triggered the downward spiral that the world economy and world peace, itself, has been on ever since. October, November 2000 is the very moment that the bottom dropped out of the economy. The world powers shifted drastically. Bush was elected, Putin, and Sharon, himself in special elections just a few months later.

Indeed, the so called "70th week" of 1993-2000 was a period of relative peace for Israel and the world. We saw economic booms, the rise of the internet, optimism.

Most importantly, even supernaturally, the period 1993-2000 occurs directly in the middle of the "8 week" time line that begins in 1967.

You'll find that there are 3 1/2 periods of 7 years each, both preceding and following 1993-2000.

And remember that these are Biblical years. So I'm speaking approximates.

Ask this question: In the Olivet Discourse, why did Jesus say that "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, let those in Judea flee to the mountains..." ? (Notice that soon after this event Sharon began "walling in" the Palestinians. The human rights abuses currently underway in Judea are all rooted in Ariel Sharon's policies.)

Jesus also referred to this as being the sign that the end was "right at the door".

Why would he point us to a sign that was, according to Darby and all who ride on his coattails today, the last event of the endgame?

It's because it's not the last event.

These prophecies about 1993-2000 were given to Daniel so that those of us that live in these times would recognize them for what they are.

There were signs in the heavens. Jupiter was struck. On March 13th 1997, the Hale Boppe comet was in it's prime.

Look at Daniel chapter eight and you'll find another description of the "taking away of the daily sacrifice". It's described as basically, (paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me) "certain powers of the heavens were given over in exchange for the taking away of the daily sacrifice".

March 13, 1997 was also the same day the "Phoenix lights" event occurred.

Now, do what you will with this information, but take note: I'm not trying to foretell coming events based on scriptural interpretation. I'm not speculating about how the prophecies will play out. This is all factual information of historically verifiable events that happen to relate perfectly to Daniel chapter nine.

Ask this question as well: if we're supposed to be on the lookout for a 7 year treaty with Israel, how many are we supposed to ignore before the prophesied one occurs? And how many of them will also appear to be perfect fulfillment of prophecy?

The Oslo Accords are the first and only 7 year treaty Israel has signed in all of history.

As I understand it, according to this time line, the "time, times and half a time" are references to 3 1/2 seven year periods both preceding and following the "70th week" fulfilled in 1993-2000. The first 3 1/2 "weeks" were 1967 -1993. The final 3 1/2 "weeks" are 2000-2024.

The 4th "week" began in 1990 and was cut in half by the "treaty week" in 1993. It resumed in 2000. Amazingly everything that occurred in the split "4th week " repeated on both sides of the "treaty week".

In the 3 1/2 year period preceding 1993 we saw the first WTC attack and the first gulf war.
In the 3 1/2 year period following 2000 we saw the second WTC attack and the second gulf war. Almost as if they picked up right where they left off.

I'd encourage anyone to verify this information for themselves.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
You are very quick to dismiss and neglect the fact that the culture and people that the Word comes from is Jewish.. Yeshua Himself is NOT a christian but a Jew who kept shabbat and the feasts.. Those which are to be kept FOREVER as a memorial and are all about Him and His Messianic agenda..

OK, point taken and accepted. But a couple of remarks still need to be made.

One is that this thread was very much about the internal structure of the history in Revelation, particularly as it relates to the rule of the Beast and the time when it is persecuting the saints. As far as I can see, your comments on the fig-tree and the time for repentance relate to the timing of God coming in judgement, which is important, but I haven't been able to see how it connected with the specific topic of the OP. Perhaps you would like to read over the OP and explain how your angle connects with the view expressed there.

Also the question of the time-factor still remains.
Remember, I was reacting to your suggestion that I should not just look at this line of interpretation relating to the feasts, but actually present that line of interpretation myself- on the flattering grounds that I would do it.better. And my point was that I could not present that line of interpretation until I had made it my own, and I could not make it my own without, at the very least, a time-commitment. And I am committed at the moment to this project of attempting to interpret Revelation in terms of its own words. Although you may have noticed that on different occasions I have been drawing very heavily on the various Old Testament prophecies to which the imagery in Revelation alludes.

can someone please refer me to the verse that says there is to be a 7 year peace treaty

Originally posted by iamnot
can someone please refer me to the verse that says there is to be a 7 year peace treaty

Yes, exactly. I know where people are getting it from. I think it's the currently popular interpretation of Daniel ch9 v27;
"He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week".
However, you will see in the OP that I give a completely different interpretation of that verse; I relate it to "the ten kings offering their power to the Beast".
The "seven-year peace-treaty" is the product of anxiety to find topical details in Revelation, which I think is a mistake.

Originally posted by St Udio
Notice that Saturday, the Sabbath, is the 7th Trumpet...it is the culminatrion of all the wraths/bowls/plagues/thunders
It is also the time period when Gods' forces led by Michael actually attack the Beast Empire/False Prophet/anti-christ... not as you assume, when you say God is fighting against the Beast all throughout the final 3 1/2 years

Thank you for that contribution.
You're not willing to count the first six trumpets as "God fighting against the Beast"?
It seems a pretty war-like situation to me- I expect to get onto the trumpets in the near future.
And the whole sequence of trumpets is introduced by "peals of thunder, voices, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake", which looks very much to me like God's way of announcing that war has been declared.
Neville Chamberlain made a lugubrious announcement over the radio- God does it with thunder and lightning.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Thank you for that contribution.
You're not willing to count the first six trumpets as "God fighting against the Beast"?
It seems a pretty war-like situation to me- I expect to get onto the trumpets in the near future.
And the whole sequence of trumpets is introduced by "peals of thunder, voices, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake", which looks very much to me like God's way of announcing that war has been declared.
Neville Chamberlain made a lugubrious announcement over the radio- God does it with thunder and lightning.

no i do not... the Trumpets are for all mortal men, as some transpire all during the first half-week before the antichrist and false share power with the kings ( for an hour) and then lay-low 3 kings thus completing the
the seizing of the (10 toes - 2 feet) kingdom.
the church/Laws (candlestick) are in someway complicit or idle as the anti-christ person comes to seize the kingdom and the first few Trumpets are not God fighting...but instead giving due warning to the laggards in the churches ...

we do know that the anti-christ has not yet revealed himself, so the first 3 1/2 years when we see the 70th week commence,,,the escalation of the 4 horsemen that have been cycling in history to a new and profound presence at the onset of 70th week of Daniel is actually a clue & warning to the faithfull& the backsliders...
that the prophetic time clock has begun




Notice that the end-time reinvigorated four horsemen is not 'punishment' metted out to the Beast and those who have accepted his Mark.
but is sent out to the whole world of both good and evil persons... its only after the middle of the week , ie 3 1/2 years after the antichrist is revealed that punishment begins...
and its not God or the army of Angels at conflict with the Beast empire/man but it is the Earth and Nature
& the Cosmos and supernatural ways...along with the Beasts' nature to self-destroy that brings about all those calamities on itself and the followers...

God and Michael only war with satan in the final Day=Year of the week, at the 7th Trumpet, 7th vial, 7th bowl/ 7th plague, 7th seal are all in the package of 'wraths' leveled at the Beast & the followers, but also
withany remnant of good people too.



" God does it with thunder and lightning. "
our contemporary war zealots, the neocons call those actions Shock and Awe

Originally posted by St Udio
its only after the middle of the week , ie 3 1/2 years after the antichrist is revealed that punishment begins...

Yes, but I gave my reasons for identifying ch8 vv2-6, ie the beginning of the trumpets, as the middle of the week.
To recap the argument; one "hour" = one "week". Two names for the same thing.
Beast not being punished in the first half of the week? Yes, I agree, and that's exactly what is meant by the statement "There was silence in heaven for half an hour".
"Half an hour" = first half of the "one hour" = first half of the "week"
"Silence" = "God not expressing his wrath in punishment".
This first half-hour or first half-week occupying the period from ch7 v1 to ch8 v1.
I was using that argument in my very first thread, and repeated it in this OP.

Originally posted by Alpha Arietis
As for Daniel's (or rather, Gabriel's) "70th" week, it is the only one in all the 70 to be described. It is described with three specific points of prophecy. We know what they are:
1. A 7 year "Covenant with Many" shall be established,
2. A halting of the "daily sacrifice" shall occur,
3. "The abomination of Desolation" will be established.

I want to consider the meaning of the word "Desolation", because I think that's crucial to identifying it properly.
The English word comes from the Latin "SOLUS", "alone". A "desolate" widow is a woman on her own. A "desolate" land is a land that doesn't have any other human inhabitants.
The Greek word used in the gospel comes from EREMOS, which has the same meaning. That's important, because it shows what the gospel writers thought the Hebrew meant.

My lexicon gives the Hebrew word as "desolate" or "laid waste", and it's worth noting that the same word is used to describe Ezra's state of mind when he learns about the mixed marriages. Usually translated as "astonished".
So I think the word is really describing an emotional state- "devastated" in the emotional sense.

"Abomination of desolation" is used in 1 Maccabees to describe what the historical king Antiochus Epiphanes does. I don't think we can understand the Daniel story properly without connecting up with the history, because the two are obviously related. If we understand Daniel in the light of the historical events, that tells us;
That the hostile ruler is the one who is responsible for the Abomination.
That "setting up the Abominaton" and "causing the sacrifice to cease" are more or less the same thing; they're two aspects of the one operation. That's what the king did in the Temple.
And I'm convinced that the emotional impact of that event is what is meant by "making desolate". The Jews felt they had been "cut off" from their God. This meant that they felt alone, isolated, desolate.
It seems to me that a modern version of "Desolation" would have to be something along the same lines. Something which gave people the sense that they had been "cut off" from their God.

But I'm not sure that the intifada and events following on from it meet that description.

Originally posted by truthiron
Rev. 11,: I had in another reply made a post on this but don't remember now where.

It was in my thread on "the Two Witnesses".

There is a lot of views of who the 2 witnesses are but I find we are to be His withesses and in this case I find this chore goes to the 144,00.
They are armed with the Holy Spirit ( Two Olive Trees ) and the two candlesticks ( The Old and New Testaments,

yes, I agree that God's people are the two witnesses, as you will know from reading my thread on the subject.
But you have missed the point about the allusion to Zechariah. Zechariah mentions the two olive trees, and they are then identified to him as "the two anointed ones"- ie as Zerubabbel and Joshua. ie as "the king and the high priest". This is very important in identifying the witnesses as the church, because, as you will remember from ch5, "he has made us a kingdom and priests to our God". Or "kings and priests" in some translations.

This time period is a parallel to the 42 mos. of Rev. 13 but with a different view of things at the same time.

Yes, I know. In fact I spent the entire OP making that point. That is part of the fundamental theme of this thread.

Originally posted by truthiron
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

This was my point.
The king is anointed.
The high priest is anointed.
The two anointed ones.
If you look at the context, you realise that the whole point of Zechariah chs 3-4 is to encourage Joshua and Zerubabbel. They are the leaders of the people under God, and it is in that sense that they are "feeding the lampstand" of God's people.

reply to post by 35Foxtrot

Further to my previous comment on the translation of "a time, times" etc;
The Greek word is KAIROS- a set time, a limited time.
This is followed by KAIROUS, a simple plural.
But I believe the Hebrew word in Daniel ch12 is in the "dual" form, which specifies "two of".
So the usual interpretation (and sometimes the translation) of the Revelation ch12 verse tends to follow the Daniel precedent, assuming the verse to be a quotation.
Hence "A time, two times, and half a time".