Should We Clone Neanderthals?, page 7
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reply posted on 4-10-2010 @ 07:30 PM by Kailassa
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Originally posted by Kailassa
I always suspected the better man lost, in that survival competition.

Perhaps Neanderthals were too busy singing and dancing to fight off cannibalistic raids from their nasty little neighbours.

If governments ever allow such cloning to take place, you can be sure it will be for nefarious purposes.

Perhaps the "gentle giants" that many of us are familiar with have active Neanderthal genes.

You people amuse me.
Yes, everything is better than humans.
Neanderthals were enlightened species, wolves are more spiritually aware, hell, a dung beetle has a better personality than a human.

You People? Way to go, categorise your opponent as belonging to some ill-defined and imaginary group and then throw ridiculous insults at that group.

Perhaps you should at least get your facts straight.
Neanderthals were humans.

Listen, in clinical terms, this is known as reflection...meaning you take the attributes you personally have and put it on to other people. If you are a drug addict, suddenly everyone on earth in your eyes is a drug addict. If you are a murderer, everyone is a murderer. . . . .
. . . but that only applies to one person...so you should ask yourself, why do you feel that way about yourself?

You have a point, here.

I'm from a family of tall, strong, reddish-haired people, and we all love singing, playing instruments and dancing.
And despite the hereditary strong physiques, we're a very gentle crowd. - And I'm into jewellery making.
Oh, we do pretty well on IQ tests, too, not that they measure true intelligence particularly well.

So I guess it's quite natural for me to identify with the large-brained, musical Neanderthals and appreciate their qualities.

edit on 4/10/10 by Kailassa because: formatting



reply posted on 4-10-2010 @ 10:58 PM by Shadowed
reply to post by schuyler



Neanderthal could speak I have a documentary that I think may help out here.






From this you can really see just how human these "animals" were.
edit on 4/10/10 by Shadowed because: addition



reply posted on 4-10-2010 @ 11:38 PM by Aquarius1
reply to post by Shadowed



Thank you for the video documentary, will watch it tomorrow when I am more awake. I already believe they could speak.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 01:29 AM by Kailassa
Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Its an animal...just an animal. cloning animals out of extinction = good.

Why is cloning an extinct animal ''good'' ?
Don't be obtuse.
A species is a group of animals that can produce fertile offspring amongst themselves upon mating.
Are you saying that it would be ok to exploit and experiment on a living being purely because it wouldn't produce a fertile baby if we had sex with it ?

Is that how you would seriously, ethically justify your suggestion of dumping some hapless neanderthals on an island ?
How would the neanderthals cope after being ''created'' without any parents or tribe to guide them through their formative years ?
It would be a truly horrific experience for these unfortunate neanderthals.

Have you not got a conscience ?

He can justify it easily; just class Neanderthals as Zygotes:

Originally posted by SaturnFX
the experiment is giving them life..a biological experiment involving dna strands and a zygote..are we not allowed to experiment on zygotes now?
equal rights for zygote movement...never heard of it.

By the way, a Neanderthal/modern human mating would be even likelier to produce fertile offspring new than it was when our ancestors originally mated. We share
99.5% - nearly 99.9% of our DNA with them. As some of this shared DNA has come from mating with them long ago, obviously we could produce fertile offspring together back when we had even less in common than we do now.

It would seem the assumption that the DNA of any two humans is 99.9% similar in content and identity no longer holds.

The researchers were astonished to locate 1,447 CNVs in nearly 2,900 genes, the starting "templates" written in the DNA that are used by cells to make the proteins which drive our bodies.

This is a huge, hitherto unrecognised, level of variation between one individual and the next.

"Each one of us has a unique pattern of gains and losses of complete sections of DNA," said Matthew Hurles, of the UK's Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute.

So if you met a random Neanderthal, it's possible his genes would be closer to yours than those of your next-door neighbour.

Scientists are no longer agreed that we should regard Neanderthals as a separate species.

With the similarities so great between us and this branch of our ancestors, there is only one way to decide on the morality of experimenting on Neanderthals. "Would it be ethical to do this to our own children?"

People are forgetting, any cloned Neanderthal will be someone's child, because the only way to create it would be to place the cloned zygote into a human mother for gestation. Then, for optimum development, the baby would need a human mother figure to cuddle and feed it, and to teach it the basics needed for human development.

What sort of outcry would there be when these mothers were expected to give up the children they loved to be "observed" in a colony on a desert island?
What sort of realism would there be in a colony which began with children who had all suffered this trauma?
The experiment would tell us more about the effects of such trauma on humans than it would about Neanderthals.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 04:49 AM by TheNewKid
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Originally posted by Phage
reply to
post by SaturnFX


Sure. First it starts with, "Hey, look at the guys with the heavy unibrow."
Then the screaming starts.

You're talking about "observing" creatures which could likely be as intelligent as humans.


edit on 10/3/2010 by Phage because: (no reason given)




and?

I did say seperate on a isolated island...let them pick up where they left off...living in caves and gnawing on berries...in a few hundred (or thousand) years, they may get the tech to slap something together and see what is beyond the ocean world they live on.

Could be a fascinating study...and hey, its not like they will complain about it once they realize whats going on...being they were initially extinct and whatnot.


Your idea reminds me of the Jim Carrey movie called The Truman Show, I think alot of people if aware of this study will try interfere somehow.

Imagine they saw a plane pass through the sky overhead


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 04:57 AM by Sherlock Holmes
Originally posted by Kailassa
He can justify it easily; just class Neanderthals as Zygotes:


If someone is attempting to justify it on those grounds, then that is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, the initial experiment is on a zygote and a few DNA strands, but clearly the intention of the experiment is to create a living, breathing creature purely for a group of voyeuristic humans to spy on.

The whole idea is completely twisted.

Originally posted by Kailassa
People are forgetting, any cloned Neanderthal will be someone's child, because the only way to create it would be to place the cloned zygote into a human mother for gestation. Then, for optimum development, the baby would need a human mother figure to cuddle and feed it, and to teach it the basics needed for human development.

What sort of outcry would there be when these mothers were expected to give up the children they loved to be "observed" in a colony on a desert island?
What sort of realism would there be in a colony which began with children who had all suffered this trauma?
The experiment would tell us more about the effects of such trauma on humans than it would about Neanderthals.


Sadly, I think many people just don't care, rather than forgetting.

This is why any experiment would be completely fruitless, as the scenario would be so warped and unnatural, that it would yield practically no valid data about neanderthals.

They would be largely mimicking the behaviour of their homo sapiens mother that brought them up, so as you say, there would be no realism at all.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 07:02 AM by WorstCaseScenario
reply to post by SaturnFX



Yo SaturnFX,

I did mention "SPORE and POPULOUS" they were both great games, I don't wanna be seen as a God but it would be interesting to see if they did start to worship us anyway, if they saw our aerial vehicles, that's assuming they were capable of such thoughts. I remember reading somewhere about a tribe, cut off from modern civilisation, that were first visited by a team of western scientist who arrived by aeroplane, when they returned a few years later this tribe had built statues (looking for a better word there, they were made from trees and plants) of the planes and had started to worship the team as higher beings.

If the idea was to be taken seriously then I think you are right, a covert camera set up would do the trick. Have you seen Battle Royale? A set up similar to that would work. The idea is completely ridiculous though!

I'm not sure if cloning a Neanderthal would really be of much benefit. Perhaps medically, but to really study how they lived you would need the same conditions exactly, otherwise its just a neanderthal growing up in modern times and therefore wouldn't know the difference. I
think they had a high level of intelligence and would make the best of any situation, and I don't think a laboratory is a good situation to be in for any creature of this earth.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 07:29 AM by DogsDogsDogs
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes



Thank you. The callousness and absence of ethics in this thread really is breathtaking. Sorry to be "judgmental", but if the thinking that cloned creatures have no feelings, no soul, or emotion or that it is somehow "okay" to just create a toy or a "subject" without regard for any of that, wtf? Obviously, human ancestor or not, no obligation is felt toward this beings quality of life or rights or....crap, maybe that's the idea.
This is extremely dark. Sick.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 10:57 AM by Aeons
reply to post by SaturnFX



Wow - look at him go. Punching down strawmen he crafts first.

Wonderful Job.


reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 04:48 PM by Sherlock Holmes
reply to post by DogsDogsDogs



As a man of science and a man that has firm moral beliefs, I have to draw the line at scientific endeavours that ignore any kind of ethics in the researcher's pursuit of knowledge.

I would say that many posters on this subject display the same kind of ethos that Dr. Mengele had.

While it'd be unfair to directly equate these posters with Dr. Mengele, the similarities still arise.
edit on 5-10-2010 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)




reply posted on 5-10-2010 @ 05:24 PM by SaturnFX
Originally posted by Aeons
reply to
post by SaturnFX



Wow - look at him go. Punching down strawmen he crafts first.

Wonderful Job.


No clue what your talking about...but I am glad you are clearly excited about something. Being happy is a good thing


reply posted on 6-10-2010 @ 12:59 AM by Seeker PI
reply to post by WorstCaseScenario



I remember reading somewhere about a tribe, cut off from modern civilisation, that were first visited by a team of western scientist who arrived by aeroplane, when they returned a few years later this tribe had built statues (looking for a better word there, they were made from trees and plants) of the planes and had started to worship the team as higher beings.


They are called Cargo Cults.

www.britannica.com...
www.scientificamerican.com...
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