Truth about China

Originally posted by Hawkssss
I have to say that I didn't mean to open this thread for it to turn into yet another "China Vs. USA" thread. I simply wanted to state some facts and let people know that China is not that backward militarily, politically, ideologically, economically, although we do have a lot of catching up to do.

The problem is, if China does not fit America politically, ideologically, to a certain degree (like Canada or England), it is considered backward. But as we are seeing, China is definitely not backward. In fact, in this day and age, it is the most progressive of all nations. Even the U.S. is being rather conservative.

Again some facts
1) China is not a democracy, but it is not a malignant dictatorship that sets out to oppress her people and bully over all its neighbors. The government made some mistakes in 1989, but since we have made great strides. I would say it is a benevolent dictatorship which is the right ideological and politcal entity for the current state of economical development. I am pretty positive that one day we will seek something similar to western democracy, but it will never be the same as yours. After all, we have never had this sort of system and our system is always concensus based: it is about the whole group, unlike yours which is about the individual. Keep in mind, the west has experimented with the concept of democracy for thousands of years since ancient Greece and ours is based on the Confucian system.

Well-said. Some people just don't understand that certain ways work better for certain people. I don't like the Confucian system, but apparently, it works for the Chinese, so I really have no right to say anything. China is authoritarian, but it is very willing, going back to the whole progressive thing. China is willing to go forward mostly because it's leaders want it. Like you say, that goes along with the "benevolent oligarchy" concept.

China is not a bully. it does not try to influence neighboring countries. In regards to your last paragraph, neither the U.S. nor China can afford such a war. I believe there is an ultimate winner, but the price is SO not worth it.

Agree with sweatmonicaIdo. Only he who is ocnfident can easily admit he has drawbacks.

In less than 200 yrs, the States became the world's #1 superpower. Every one should feel proud. However, it is important to be open minded, and modest. This includes respecting other countries/cultures.

Politicians are not necessarily like us ordinary people. They have different reasoning.

"benevolent oligarchy", that's the word.

hawkssss farenhight911 is a bad movie made to make you believe what Michael Moore wants for example in the movie they show you pics of hurt ppl then they cut right to the US soldiers that is manipulation

Originally posted by fuelcell
I wonder if you know the history of Tibet and Taiwan. Even Daila Lama proposes Tibet a part of China. Even General Chiang Khaishi demonstrated that Taiwan is a part of China, which is also acknowledged by over 180 countries in the world, including USA and Britain.

So robbing with gun is OK if you force victim to sign paper freeing you from any responsibility... gee, that might even work in the Promised Land of lawyers.

www.tibet.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

Like I said that stinks Stalin's peace.


And I know well that Taiwan was part of China... before it turned to communistic dictature.

Truth, equality and goodwill doesn't have anything to do with international policy. Greed and money are those which keep international policy running and as long as these multinational corporations have cheap labour in China which to use make more and more profits they urge their lapdogs in governments not to say anything which might be "inconvenient" to your holy trinity... oops, to your government.

"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field."
-Albert Einstein

With logic that because you once owned one land area you have the right to take it I could said that Japan has right to rule China (after all it was under Japan control in WW2), US and India should be under British rule...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

So what's your point, E_T? You haven't really given an argument, just a bunch of facts.

Are you justifying a cause for war?

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Are you justifying a cause for war?

No, just that world shouldn't stay silent when undemocratic country constantly threatens other.

And Iraq was placed under trade embargo after Hussein attacked Kuwait. (why didn't this happened when China invaded Tibet?)

Also remember all those peacy treaties with Hitler before WW2.
So as long as these "old guard" extreme communists have power in China I wouldn't completely exclude worst possibility.

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.
--George Bernard Shaw

well if china does try to force Taiwan by military force as a great president likes to say "Bring em on" -Gorge W. Bush-







West Point
Out

Originally posted by E_T

Originally posted by fuelcell

So robbing with gun is OK if you force victim to sign paper freeing you from any responsibility... gee, that might even work in the Promised Land of lawyers.
Like I said that stinks Stalin's peace.

And I know well that Taiwan was part of China... before it turned to communistic dictature.

To tell the truth, E_T, I smelt some political slogans in your post, which i don't really agree to .

I don't want to argue too much on this issue. But I would give some background items.

First, when we talk about this, we need to bear in mind that a "country/nation" generally consists of three aspects: the land, the people, and the government.

The Chinese Communist part is not the Chinese people, neither the land, even nor the "government"(of course we all knoow that the government there isrun by the communist").

If Taiwan was a part of China, it should still be a part of China unless the Chinsee agree to let it separate, irrelevant to fact that the goverment is communist or not. If you want Taiwan to get independent, YOU are changing the political situation, And, LEGALLY, you need to let the Chinese Agree.

Tibet has been long under the ruling of China (not starting from the communist government then). The communist inhirited the ruling. I don't mean that the communist ruling is legitimate. However, this is the issue of "CHINESE PEOPLE". If they accept it, what can you do? Go there to liberate them with a war?

By the way, the western did blockaded the communist goverment for over 20 years.

Japan did not get the legal control of China. That was and is an "invasion". I can't agree on your logic with this issue.

However, so many countries admit the "Situation" that Tibet and Taiwan are parts of China. Can you really compare that to the Hitler case? Then most countries (at least their governments) in the world are Hitler's victims? Is this only the results of international political issues without any justice? legitimacy? I doubt.

I talked with many chinese graduates and business person. They told me that in the Taiwan and Tibet issues, Chinese people are on the government's side. And, if the communist government were not to claim the ownership and let them separate, the government would be overthrown by Chinese people, immediately.

I asked ifany biased education, such as "brainwash", led to this situation. I was told:

"Nobody can cheat 1.3 billion people all the time."


OK, let's forget the Chinese issue temporarily. In a commercial age, business is so important. Let's forget wars. Let's maintain peace to make business. In the end, business will also result in good things such as democracy and freedom.


[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

Originally posted by Blarney
I believe China has an eye on the middle east oil and will align itself with countries like Iran and Syria. Watch events closely. China will not allow the U.S. to unduly control the middle east (just like the U.S. would not allow, hypothetically, China to take over Kuwait). We should allow China a greater stake in the middle east rather than watch her become allies with countries we would rather not be given nuclear reactor information.

good one, in fact a couple of days ago the syrian president was in China, and he signed a lot of treaties paving the way for more things to come( as he personnaly quoted seeking a better relationship and cooperation)

Originally posted by fuelcell
Japan did not get the legal control of China. That was and is an "invasion". I can't agree on your logic with this issue.

Same way it's an invasion if you go to Taiwan and its people doesn't want to be under ruling of your government.

sweatmonicaIdo,
I am having a hard time remembering when I gave lip service to the USA, in fact, I believe I stated my discontent with our current government. As for my "stomach for it" 101 class, you clearly contradict yourself when you say we dont have the stomach for war, then saying if it came down to war you would fight til your head was blown off, which only reaffirmed my point that we will fight just as hard as any other country, and the US has had its fair share of wars so your China has fought more wars theory is also incorrect. Maybe more wars with horses and spears, but not modern warfare, theres a difference. Its important, I agree, to not underestimate any adversary, however youre somehow dismissing the FACT that the US has the largest and by far most technologically advanced military in the world.There is no single country that can compete conventionally at this point. Sure theres alot of countries that have nukes, but thats not conventional, and MAD is a pretty effective deterrent. As for your "I dont like the people" comment, well maybe you should move to China and join the winning team in your eyes, because if youre not proud of the country you live in because of the people, if you dont at least like the people, then youre just a drag on society and should live somewhere that youre happy. Once again I want to state that I hope no war occurs between the US and China, (or any other country for that matter). I like Chinese food and Chinese people.

P.S. In response to youre example of US "weakness" you referred to the "night hawk" helicopters (black hawk actually) being taken down by RPG sneak attacks, that is hardly a gauge of fighting skill when youre there to oversee a humanatarian mission in a seemingly non-hostile environment, and youre caught with youre back turned, just like 9/11. Both are also quite different than conventional army to army conflict.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by jd27]

[edit on 27-6-2004 by jd27]

Originally posted by Bl00D_Th0rN

Originally posted by Blarney
I believe China has an eye on the middle east oil and will align itself with countries like Iran and Syria.

good one, in fact a couple of days ago the syrian president was in China, and he signed a lot of treaties paving the way for more things to come( as he personnaly quoted seeking a better relationship and cooperation)

Agree. Kind of a "Live and let live" thing. If the other main players such as europe and Russia and China can also get something, there would be no trouble at all. Everybody get a piece of the big cake and the State can definitely get the biggest without any trouble in that case. Everybody is happy, including the Iraqis. Every one can do a good business.

Sounds like gangsters game but it should be the reality.

Unilaterism caused the big trouble.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

Originally posted by E_T

Originally posted by fuelcell
Japan did not get the legal control of China. That was and is an "invasion". I can't agree on your logic with this issue.

Same way it's an invasion if you go to Taiwan and its people doesn't want to be under ruling of your government.

E_T, that would be a civil war, like many other civil wars.

BTW, I hate wars, even a civil war.

As for your "I dont like the people" comment, well maybe you should move to China and join the winning team in your eyes, because if youre not proud of the country you live in because of the people, if you dont at least like the people, then youre just a drag on society and should live somewhere that youre happy.

Dude, that is so funny. I mean, okay, I wasn't even talking about everybody (either I didn't specify enough or you took things way too literally). There are good people in the U.S. But your reasoning is so flawed. Because I don't like many people in Amerca, that makes me anti-American?

Let me ask you this: Do you like every American?

And find where I said I wasn't happy in America, I think I missed that.

Maybe when you learn to see the side of others' as well as your own you begin to understand how people feel. Like I said, you just don't understand people. No wonder you have to PRETEND I don't like the country.

I was watching a Discovery Channel program on Marine Corps Basic Training and there was one recruit who said there were many things he didn't like about the country, like the people. But he said he still love the country and he is now a U.S. Marine. I guess he should move to China too, since he doesn't like many people of America?

I think anyone who can't say anything except "move to another country" because others say something they don't like are the real drags to society.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Yeah, you did not specify enough that you didnt mean every American. And no, of course I do not like everybody in this country, but only because they have given me a personal reason not to. You on the other hand, since you say you dont hate all Americans, at least seem (and I say seem because I am just speculating) like the type of person who dislikes people until they give you a personal reason not too. But I never used the term "anti-american" did I? Im not a politician. Your posts are, however, on the whole negatve toward this country. I have not at any point seen you cede to the fact that we are the worlds super power, you have obviously not been watching the discovery channel enough to see how well this country performs militarily, the missions are not always agreeable but, but our soldiers are the best at what they do. But again I think war is never the answer. And I suggested you move to China because on most of your posts thus far you have made it clear that you admire that country so greatly, and since you stated pretty much that you hate most (not all, correction noted) Americans, and somehow youve met "most" Americans, maybe you will give the Chinese a chance. If you are happy in this country, maybe you should (and this again is just a speculation) turn off the Bauhaus cd, throw on your favorite Nine Inch Nails shirt, and go out and meet most of the people you hate, because most people are not like the bullies in high school. And again Im only speculating on the reason you dislike most people, I dont know you, of course. And no disrespect to goth music, I like industrial myself. But you should at least have some pride in your country, and faith in your countrymen. Not like Im saying buy a Toby Keith cd, and vote for Bush, Im just saying you can have pride in your country without being over-patriotic. You dont even have to like everybody, but you should not cede any victory to any country if war does occur, youre lucky enough to live in a country that is somewhat stable and has the power to wage war in a way nobody truly wants to take on (except fanatic terrorists, and thats only because they dont have to face barrel to barrel, we see how bad they lose when they do). But I guess were gonna have to agree to disagree.
P.S. That marine on the discovery channel probably wouldnt be saying the US doesnt have the most powerful military in the world either.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by jd27]

[edit on 27-6-2004 by jd27]

jd27,

Hey, believe what you want, it's your issue.

Anyway, this is a thread about how China stacks up against the U.S., not about patriotism or whatever you wanted to talk about. So all I can say is stick to the subject or go to the Political Mud Pit.

Not trying to be nasty, but it seems like you've totally missed the point of the thread. "Faith in nation and countrymen" is not what the thread was about. I've wasted enough time, I should get back to the real subject at hand.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

A little food for thought for the Chinese... An old friend of mine (now passed away) who had served a full career in naval intelligence, and who had many knowledgeable friends, once assurred me that if China, much less North Korea, ever attempted to launch an ICBM at the United States, it would either blow up on the launch pad or never come back down. He didn't give me details on this, and I suppose he could have been telling stories, but I never thought of him as one to embellish for no reason, since he was a baptist minister.

Not that I expect anyone to take my word for this... I know it's thin. I just thought I'd mention it and see if anyone had suspicions as to how it could be true, and IF it is true.

Actually I think this already happened once I don't have any info on this but the Chinese tried to do a testing launch and the rocket exploded on take off it wasn't carrying real nuclear warhead but if it had been real there go a whole lot of Chinese people

sweatmonicaIdo,

Actually, we were discussing a war between China and the US, and our discussion stemmed from the fact that you favor China to win, and I favor the US. I agree it has gone off track, although in each of my posts I state my belief that the US military is superior, so I never strayed too far off point. So believe what you like as well, however misguided it may be, but I rest assured in a military conflict we would come out on top. But luckily this is all just speculation, as both countries rely to heavily on one another for their economies.