Creationism/Intelligent Design: PROVE IT!

reply to post by GeisterFahrer
That about lines up with the knowledge they had at the time. The Bible is essentially a compendium of all human knowledge, wrapped around morals and fantasies, that was available. But the "authors" didn't write about DNA or computers because they didn't know about DNA or computers.

Doesn't prove creationism lol. Once someone figures out a way to grow plants in a vacuum, perhaps I'll reconsider the creationist myth.

reply to post by uva3021


Darwin didn't know about molecular biology when he formulated his opinion. I am sure he would have corrected it if he had studied the flagellum.

reply to post by GeisterFahrer


Speculation? I'm sorry, but he probably wouldn't have altered that idea. And Ken Miller knocked the flagellum out of the park at the Kitzmiller trial, it's a matter of public record. The flagellum is not irreducibly complex. It is complex and we can show how it arose. We can remove parts from it and it can still have function.

And here's the crazy thing, not all structures require function.

reply to post by GeisterFahrer
his theory has stood the test of time fairly well, and scientists have obviously integrated information available today with Darwin's theory from 150 years ago to refine an already existing theory

science is truly a remarkable enterprise

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Ok then, take God out of it and just assume that it is possible that life could have been seeded and designed by a superior species one that is formed in a way that has not been discovered yet.
But that probably wouldn't go well with the evolutionist who likes to arrogantly claim we are the only creatures in the universe, an arrogance that is just as fanatical as the bible thumper screaming about redemption on a soap box.
.

I think that evolutionists would pretty well all beleive that if we could evolve here, on this bit of rock, arround this particular star, then any one of a million other stars could support planets which were just as likely to permit evolution. We don't beleive that evolution can only happen on earth, and there is no other life in the universe. That is just not true.

For me, well although I do firmly beleive that evolution is real (I can't say I beleive IN evolution. You don't beleive in scientific fact, you believe in conjecture or psudo science, or religion, or something else which cannot be proven) I don't rule out that other infuences may be at hand. For example, IF there is a God, and he is all powerfull and almighty etc etc - then why could he not have designed evolution as a means of populating our planet? I'm not saying that is what I personally beleive, but it is a good a theory as any other I have read on this thread.

God created us through evolution. Possible. Not provable. There is no evidence for this. There is no evidence for creationism. There is no evidence for the flying spagetti monster, but it makes a great theory.

www.venganza.org...

I agree that humans have changed and adapted physical traits depending on regions that they inhabit. However there is no solid evidence for the theory of evolution in a sense that life just happened. Simply observing the complexities of the world we live in and our universe suggests intelligent design.

Their is a creator/god source so to speak as put in terms can understand. If you are asking me to provide solid evidence that the multi-dimensional being referred to as god exists simply look around you.

If God took human form came and knocked on your door and then said hey buddy I am god how are you doing I heard that you doubt my creative almighty power... You'd probably still not believe it and that it was just some random crazy god. Our loving creator does not have to perform on demand for us.

Now as for the Bible and the time it took Yaweh (judeo-christian god) to create us is relative in a sense that he is not limited by concepts of time and the week description was for human understanding because we do tell time according to the earths rotation etc... and this certainly wouldn't apply before the earth was created. The Bible also doesn't given details on how everything came about... it simply states that these things occurred.

It all comes down to faith. Quite frankly just like you claim the Bible was created by man, Science was created by man as well as the figures and methods used to estimate times and dates dealing with archeology etc. in addition to scientific literature. Quite frankly you can't just say that just because you weren't their or that you haven't seen something or experienced it personally that it really doesn't exist and it is non-sense.

Evolution is still a theory... Regardless of the religion there is a grand creator or source of existence even if humans can not fathom it.

There is really zero evidence to disprove the existence of a grand creator.

Evolution and the presumption that life came into this universe randomly is illogical and absurd.

Just because there a a few bad apples in imperfect humanity that claim to support a religion but epically fail doesn't mean that a true religion and creator doesn't exist.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Oh really can you provide evidence against my theory.


One day in an empty void of nothingness a being with the head of a cheeseburger was lonely. He decided that he wanted to create some friends to place around with so he created the universe. He created helpers (humans) to maintain the most intelligent helpers (cows) to be ground up processed shaped and served with a side of deep fried potatoes. For millions of years he cultivated the potatoes humans and cows until one day he could come to our planet and create a sand which in his image to be created and consumed by his creation humans. He came down to earth and created hamburger franchises... and that is why mc donalds, burger king and other franchises exist. PROVE TO ME THAT THIS S NOT HOW IT WENT DOWN. CHEESEBURGER influence the minds of man. His greatest creation.... the $1 cheeseburger.

disprove it!!!!!!!

The original theory of evolution was a product of a lack of understanding of the genetic make up of humanity amongst other things and is hugely flawed and based on assumptions of 150 plus years ago by a man with limited understanding. it is about as plausible as cheeseburger guy in the sky.

Originally posted by michaelknives52
The original theory of evolution was a product of a lack of understanding of the genetic make up of humanity amongst other things and is hugely flawed and based on assumptions of 150 plus years ago by a man with limited understanding. it is about as plausible as cheeseburger guy in the sky.

Ah, lets be straight here - Darwin got a *lot* of things right, and there's a reason that he is called the father of Evolution, and why the concept is so well placed in modern science.

All scientific theories are modified at some point, some more than others, but the ground work he did was amazing and shouldn't be discredited.

reply to post by michaelknives52


To say there is no proof for evolution is just blatently wrong.

To say that to proof that there is a creator which intelligently designed us, all we have to do is look around is just plain silly. In fact: To proove evolution just look arround! There, I can use the same argument and it makes as little sense as it did when you used it.

So try this as a little experiment. Take a large peice of paper and draw a line down the middle. On the left side write down all the proof you have for intelligent design, then on the right side all the proof we have for evolution. I can't think of a single thing which would be written on the left side, as faith and fantasy are not proof. On the right side there would be hundreds of items. Like all the diferent species of birds which evolved in different habitats but are origionaly of the same family. Vestigial organs. Similar bone structures accross differning species.
Visit the Natural History museum in London and see a line of actual skeletons which actually show evolution of our species.

Of course, as I posted before, non of this means there is no god, no "creator". But saying that denying evolution is denying a whole load of science. Real actual proper science. You know - science - the stuff that allows us to sit here and tye on these computers, and connect to the internet, and put up spacecraft. Science, provable, workable, results driven science. You can't pick ond choose which bits you like, if something is true, it is just true.

I've tried multiple times to put forth the vast mountains of evidence that support God, only to be ignored or to have these explanations waved away.

I've tried asking atheists what their specific problem is with the knowledge, only to not get many direct answers and to have my explanations of the belief again get waved away.

Well, faith is a positive position, it requires proof, which I've tried to provide. Atheism is also a positive position, so it also requires proof.

Lately, I've not seen a single person put forth an argument for the creationist perspective, I've only seen attacks on the evolutionary theory, as if disproving the evolutionary theory would immediately put the creationist/ID theory into the place of truthfulness. This is not true.

So, what is it?

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
I've tried multiple times to put forth the vast mountains of evidence that support God, only to be ignored or to have these explanations waved away.

Put forth your mountain of evidence, I promise you faithfully I will answer each and every point you make. I extend this invitation to you now, you have my word I will not wave away one single line of your post.

Originally posted by etherical waterwave

Lately, I've not seen a single person put forth an argument for the creationist perspective, I've only seen attacks on the evolutionary theory, as if disproving the evolutionary theory would immediately put the creationist/ID theory into the place of truthfulness. This is not true.

On this good sir we completely agree. Well said.

reply to post by michaelknives52

Originally posted by michaelknives52
I agree that humans have changed and adapted physical traits depending on regions that they inhabit. However there is no solid evidence for the theory of evolution in a sense that life just happened.

...well, that's not what evolution says. And that's not what this thread is about. It's about proving creationism/intelligent design. It's right there in the title.

Simply observing the complexities of the world we live in and our universe suggests intelligent design.

Sure, until you apply critical thinking and science.

Their is a creator/god source so to speak as put in terms can understand. If you are asking me to provide solid evidence that the multi-dimensional being referred to as god exists simply look around you.

"simply look around you" isn't evidence. I can either explain everything around me naturally with my own knowledge or that accumulated through the scientific method.

If God took human form came and knocked on your door and then said hey buddy I am god how are you doing I heard that you doubt my creative almighty power... You'd probably still not believe it and that it was just some random crazy god.

If the dude had godlike powers I might take a seat and listen. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...

Of course, that's sort of something to do with atheism, not intelligent design/creationism.

Our loving creator does not have to perform on demand for us.

I'm not asking it to, I'm asking creationists to prove their position is correct.

Now as for the Bible and the time it took Yaweh (judeo-christian god) to create us is relative in a sense that he is not limited by concepts of time and the week description was for human understanding because we do tell time according to the earths rotation etc... and this certainly wouldn't apply before the earth was created. The Bible also doesn't given details on how everything came about... it simply states that these things occurred.

And that they occurred in the wrong order.

It all comes down to faith.

Except that the scientific side of the argument doesn't, it comes down to fact.

Quite frankly just like you claim the Bible was created by man, Science was created by man as well as the figures and methods used to estimate times and dates dealing with archeology etc. in addition to scientific literature.

Yes, but the difference is that science has changed to accommodate new evidence and admitted when it was wrong and has done all it can to get to the right answer...the Bible...has remained the same even though it's clearly wrong on multiple issues.

But again, this is something that does't prove creationism.

Quite frankly you can't just say that just because you weren't their or that you haven't seen something or experienced it personally that it really doesn't exist and it is non-sense.

Um...that's what the creationists say. We know that we can infer things from physical evidence.

Evolution is still a theory...

...a theory is an explanation of a fact. Evolution is also a fact. It's a fact and a theory. Like gravity. The fact is that it happens, the theory is how it happens.

Regardless of the religion there is a grand creator or source of existence even if humans can not fathom it.

Prove it.

There is really zero evidence to disprove the existence of a grand creator.

Except...that's not how it works. You have to prove your points. You are making a positive claim, please provide proof positive.

Evolution and the presumption that life came into this universe randomly is illogical and absurd.

That statement has nothing to do with this thread. There is already a thread about disproving evolution, check my signature for "Evolution: FALSIFY IT!". I intentionally started this thread separately from that so creationists could prove their point.

Just because there a a few bad apples in imperfect humanity that claim to support a religion but epically fail doesn't mean that a true religion and creator doesn't exist.

...well, that's not our argument. And that's not the point of this thread. You're supposed to prove your point.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


> honestly there really isn't anything that can disprove creationism 100% because like some individuals stated on this thread the uses of a process similar to evolution can be a method that a God or Creative Force could have used.

The Bible and other religions haven't remained the same because as religions spread to different cultures theologies and practices were changed and made up to coincide with old practices or the wills of the leaders of the time. For example Rome and Christianity. I mean the very fact that there are different types of single religions exist is evidence the the original theology has been corrupted by humanity however the over all original message and principles remain the same.

Who or what set the process of evolution into motion? Even most scientist like Francis Crick stated that something as complex as DNA couldn't have simply evolved by chance.

If you refuse to accept existence as evidence because you feel that it is a cop out then that is fine. But the simplest explanation is right.

Also on another note if a guy came to you said he was god and displayed some cool powers it still wouldn't be evidence that he was god. He could be another of Gods creation that has a superiority complex and feels a need to lie.

I'll make you a deal. When I find a source that explains in detail the truth about the origins of the universe or physical tangible evidence that meets your standards since I have been give the burden of proof in this predicament I'll write a scientific paper on it and mail you a free copy.

However, I like many other religious believers and SCIENTIST do not believe that complex creatures like humans and other beings on this rock came into existence by chance.

he Bible or other religious texts aren't scientific journals they are a collection of stories and principles that should be applied to how humans should morally live their lives with free will.

You know just because some individuals cant prove things on the spot does not mean that what they believe in is bullocks. :p

It's interesting how some individuals put faith in one humans interpretation and then use the excuse that the writers of the Bible and other texts were only human and thusly belief in God is silly.

If you believe in God or a God Source then you pretty much have to believe in intelligent design.

reply to post by michaelknives52


I don't think that disparaging holy texts like the bible or the koran, which were inndeed written by humas, necesarily negates a beleif in God. I do beleive in a God of some sort, but I would bet by bottom that these wholy texts are not his words, or if they are they are so heavily tainted by human interpretation to have lost all of his origional meaning.

However, you have thrown a proverbial spanner into my works, so to speak:

Originally posted by michaelknives52

If you believe in God or a God Source then you pretty much have to believe in intelligent design.

I had not considerd this. Ummm, I need to go away and have a jolly good think now. Although, as I have said already on this thread, there is no reason that evolution could not be one of Gods tools for creation. Interesting.

Still for my money there is too much reasl scientific proof that evolution does play a roll in the development of species in our world to just dismiss it.

Originally posted by michaelknives52

Even most scientist like Francis Crick stated that something as complex as DNA couldn't have simply evolved by chance.

why the need to make stuff up, does lying to yourself make your fantastical beliefs a little more comforting?

he's stated many times that a self-replicating entity arising from molecules is rare (basically a view held by every single molecular scientist in history), but once achieved would spread like a disease

btw the "but things are so pretty" argument is very weak

reply to post by michaelknives52

Originally posted by michaelknives52
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

>

honestly there really isn't anything that can disprove creationism 100% because like some individuals stated on this thread the uses of a process similar to evolution can be a method that a God or Creative Force could have used.

And yet there's no reason to accept it until it's been proven. You have yet to prove your position. In fact, I'd simply ask you to look at the thread title. Either address it or please leave.

The Bible and other religions haven't remained the same because as religions spread to different cultures theologies and practices were changed and made up to coincide with old practices or the wills of the leaders of the time. For example Rome and Christianity. I mean the very fact that there are different types of single religions exist is evidence the the original theology has been corrupted by humanity however the over all original message and principles remain the same.

...and yet that's not what I was talking about. The foundations remain the same without regard for the addition of new evidence. We know that the Earth isn't a flat disc, we know that the Earth orbits the Sun, we know that there

Who or what set the process of evolution into motion?

It could have just happened. Crazy thing though, that's not the topic of this thread. At all. It is a call to prove creationism, not to question evolution.

Even most scientist like Francis Crick stated that something as complex as DNA couldn't have simply evolved by chance.

2 problems:
Problem 1: That is an argument from authority.
Problem 2: [citation needed]

If you refuse to accept existence as evidence because you feel that it is a cop out then that is fine.

It is a cop out until you demonstrate how it is not. Existence does not self-evidently prove creationism.

But the simplest explanation is right.

How is positing something infinitely more complex than the universe to explain the universe the simplest explanation?

Also on another note if a guy came to you said he was god and displayed some cool powers it still wouldn't be evidence that he was god. He could be another of Gods creation that has a superiority complex and feels a need to lie.

True, but at least his claims would have some weight to them. He'd be demonstrating something as opposed to...nothing.

I'll make you a deal. When I find a source that explains in detail the truth about the origins of the universe or physical tangible evidence that meets your standards since I have been give the burden of proof in this predicament I'll write a scientific paper on it and mail you a free copy.

...I hope you realize that a scientific paper requires original research, not the discovery of a source that proves you right...

However, I like many other religious believers and SCIENTIST do not believe that complex creatures like humans and other beings on this rock came into existence by chance.

Argumentum ad populum. So what if a lot of people agree with you?

The Bible or other religious texts aren't scientific journals they are a collection of stories and principles that should be applied to how humans should morally live their lives with free will.

Well, except Pharaoh, he doesn't get free will. And you're right, slavery, suppression of women, etc...all very moral. Oh wait, not they aren't and that isn't the point of this thread. We're not here to discuss the Bible, we're here for a creationist to prove that creationism is true. I made this quite clear in my last response to you, didn't I?

You know just because some individuals cant prove things on the spot does not mean that what they believe in is bullocks.

Well, I'm not putting anyone on the spot here. This thread has been up for four months and has no time limit on when responses can be put forth. It's a thread on the internet, you have all the time you need.

reply to post by michaelknives52

Originally posted by michaelknives52
It's interesting how some individuals put faith in one humans interpretation and then use the excuse that the writers of the Bible and other texts were only human and thusly belief in God is silly.

Straw man.

I'm sorry, but that's not how it goes. If you want to misrepresent the positions of atheists and talk about things other than the title of this thread, please go elsewhere to do so.

If you believe in God or a God Source then you pretty much have to believe in intelligent design.

...or a naturalistic deity, an apathetic deity, a deity that is subject to natural forces, a deity that is a result of natural processes, etc...

Originally posted by michaelknives52

You know just because some individuals cant prove things on the spot does not mean that what they believe in is bullocks. :p

This belief you mention, a belief in bullocks, is that at all related to the Hindu reverence for the cow?

Originally posted by michaelknives52
It's interesting how some individuals put faith in one humans interpretation and then use the excuse that the writers of the Bible and other texts were only human and thusly belief in God is silly.

The bible says many things which are provably silly. This does not disprove the existence of god, but it does nullify the bible as an authoritative source.

If you believe in God or a God Source then you pretty much have to believe in intelligent design.

Not at all.

Intelligent design is the belief there was a plan of creation, and that the universe was created as a home to humanity, the pinnacle of creation. Politically, I.D. is inevitably accompanied by the argument that gaps in evolution theory are proof that some intelligent force has kept dabbling with life-forms in order to make them conform with some pre-planned design.

It's a pretty weak god who has to keep sticking his finger in to give it another stir to get it right.

It is possible to believe in the existence of an evolving energy which manifests as a reality in which the physical world can arise, knowing this will inevitably lead to the evolution of life-forms, but not caring what kind of life-forms, not directing their development and not interfering in the direction of events ever.

I heard the Crick quotation on a Ancient Aliens History Channel special.

It's quite obvious that you are looking for a scientific study proving that God or a God Source so to speak created the universe and created life on the third rock from the sun.

No human on this planet can provide evidence following your criteria. It really doesn't make your speculation correct. You can speculate and say what probably happened but you will never know because you were not there during the start of creation. You can choose to believe or not believe. You're given free will. Nobody is forcing you to believe in god nor does anybody have to convince you. You really need to make the truth your own.

You can speculate that the religious texts... which all originated from a single source... is bogus because different cultures put a different spin on events but the principles and lessons that are taught remain the same.

Pretty much every defense that was created for evolution can be flipped and given reasoning from a religious sense. Just because some things are widely accepted as scientific fact doesn't necessarily mean that it is right... i.e. the theory about the world being flat.

I'll have my thesis and proof for you soon. Be on ATS when Armageddon comes for a rasberry emoticon