The Murder, The Patsy, The Conspiracy

reply to post by Cobra.EXE

i agree and also believe the driver or passenger in front of kennedy are the ones who shot him, you clearly see it in the film. i dont know if its the zapruder or grassy knoll video but its there. for everyone to see.

I believe it's the Zapruder film you’re referring to here and no it's not clear that the driver was the one to shot Kennedy, if anything it's clear that the shot that struck Kennedy IMHO came from the grassy knoll area, not merely a couple of feet away from the president.

And if indeed it did come from merely a few feet away from the president, and in front of hundreds of witnesses all focused on this exact spot, don’t you think one of them would’ve actually seen the driver shoot him? Wouldn’t one of them have become even the slightest bit suspicious seeing the driver turn around and deliver a fatal wound to the president, and then speed off? Surely one of them would have don’t you think?

But, Instead, the witnesses raced up the grassy knoll area, many of whom hearing shots come from there at the time of the fatal head wound and some even seeing smoke and even a fire.

reply to post by Rising Against




well exactly my point, it was pretty much hidden in plain sight. the person who sat directly in front of kennedy delivered that shot. notice how jackie kennedy is seen heading toward the trunk area of the car? because the shots were coming from the front and she was moving in the direction opposite of its flightpath.

another weird thing is, all the witnesses who were only meters away from the assassination were murdered under mysterious circumstances not even a few years after..

mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

richardcharnin.com...

www.maebrussell.com...

reply to post by Cobra.EXE

No offence intended, but was she not scrabbling about on the trunk of the car trying to retrieve the top of her husbands skull, rather than trying to move away from the line of fire ?

I do however query why the driver with all his training would have hit the brakes when everything he would have been taught told him to accelerate away from an area underfire.

reply to post by Cobra.EXE

well exactly my point, it was pretty much hidden in plain sight. the person who sat directly in front of kennedy delivered that shot. notice how jackie kennedy is seen heading toward the trunk area of the car? because the shots were coming from the front and she was moving in the direction opposite of its flightpath.

With all due respect but this is all IMO very wrong.

No. 1. The person in front of Kennedy was Connally and then a secret agent ahead of him I believe. William Greer, the driver was the one in front of Jackie and Connally’s wife, in other words to the far left.

No. 2. Jackie Kennedy, and this is well known as she herself claimed this, reached back and grabbed a piece of Kennedy's skull, not trying to escape like you say. She was even heard, and I believe witnesses as well as the secret agents present (even Clint hill the man who jumped in the car) have heard her at this time cry out "I have a piece of his brain in my hand." I believe It’s relatively well documented.

Here’s what else Clint hill said about this:

In November 1963 Hill went on the presidential trip to Texas. His special duty was to protect Jackie Kennedy. On the motorcade tour of Dallas on 22nd November, 1963, Hill rode on the running board of the Secret Service car immediately behind the presidential car.

After the first shot was fired Hill ran forward: "I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off," then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy."

(Source)

Anyway, here is Jackie clearly reaching for something...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b0354ca93337.jpg[/atsimg]

Something that can be seen in the Zapruder film, and here is the actual Zapruder film frame by frame - You can clearly see from around frame 360, she clearly see's something and starts to go after it before finally reaching out, grabbing it, then clint hill ushers her back into the car and protects her as well as the president.

It's pretty clearly shown IMO, and you can even make out an object in which she’s aiming for.

another weird thing is, all the witnesses who were only meters away from the assassination were murdered under mysterious circumstances not even a few years after..

Right and wrong - Yes, many witnesses were killed by suspicious circumstances, by it was in no means just the witnesses closest to Kennedy, it was a HUGE variety of people involved who met their demise here , witnesses to the event IMO rarely died in fact (Lee Bowers – One who did is worth researching ).

The people who were said to have been involved and then had information that they were seemingly willing to inform others about were seemingly the targets, names such as Giancana, roselli, de Mohrenschildt, Dorothy Kilgallen, mary meyer, gary underhill just to name a few.

None of these were even witnesses, all of whom seemed to have too much information and all met there end under extremely suspicious circumstances.

reply to post by Seeker PI

I do however query why the driver with all his training would have hit the brakes when everything he would have been taught told him to accelerate away from an area underfire.

I agree, and here's something that may interest you as well as Cobra.EXE that I thought was worth sharing.

At the end of the Second World War Greer joined the U.S. Secret Service. He joined the staff of the White House in November, 1950. Over the next thirteen years he worked as a chauffeur for Harry S. Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, and John F. Kennedy.

On the 22nd November, 1963, Greer was assigned to drive the presidential car in the motorcade through Dallas. Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was hot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot".

Kenneth O'Donnell (special assistant to Kennedy), who was riding in the motorcade, later wrote: "If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? He added "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots."

William Manchester claims that Greer told Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!"

Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was riding with Lyndon B. Johnson, was highly critical of the actions of Greer: "When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop... After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital... The cars all stopped... 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they (the Secret Service) should be trained to take off when a shot is fired."

It has been estimated that 59 witnesses and the Zapruder Film indicated that Greer stopped after the first shot was fired. However, when interviewed by the Warren Commission, Greer claimed: "I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away."

Greer also testified that he heard three shots and they all came from behind him. His testimony on Kennedy's head wound did suggest that a conspiracy had taken place. He claimed that when he got to Parkland Hospital he noticed Kennedy's "head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood... it looked like that (his head) was all blown off." This contradicts the pictures of Kennedy's head that were published sometime after his death.

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

William Greer died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."

(Source)

Originally posted by Cobra.EXE






i agree and also believe the driver or passenger in front of kennedy are the ones who shot him, you clearly see it in the film. i dont know if its the zapruder or grassy knoll video but its there. for everyone to see.

i dont see how its so hard for people to understand or to get some kind of legal prosecution going. i mean, clearly somebody is to be held accountable for the murder of one of our greatest presidents.

obama bin laden drives this country into the ground, and all we do is celebrate. youd think somebody would have assassinated him by now....

www.youtube.com... This video show that the driver and his passenger could not had shot JFK, and i agree with that.
And why should the driver or his passenger shoot JFK unnoticed? First, it would be crazy, secondly, people (police officers, secret agents and the rest of the croud near the vehicle) would clearly had noticed in case the driver or his passenger would pull a gun.

It officially states it was Oswald who from a building (from a high level position, pointing the rifle downwards) shot all three shots at JFK from a back angle position. But how is that possible? Long time ago i saw a another youtube video clip (i don't remember what youtube clip) were it clearly shows that the last shot came from the front, as JFK's head is forced backwards.
In the 1990'ies i watched the JFK movie were Kevin Costner played the attorney who investigated the JFK assasination. I of course assume that Kevin Costner played this real attorney. If i recall, the JFK movie should describe the authentic investigation. The real investigation show that it is impossible that a rifle could had shot all three shots within few seconds. The investigation also states that all three shots were shot from three different angles (from ground level position).

www.john-f-kennedy.net...
blogs.myspace.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com... From my 'Marilyn Monroe and Kennedy UFO conspiracy' thread

reply to post by Anunaki10

The real investigation show that it is impossible that a rifle could had shot all three shots within few seconds. The investigation also states that all three shots were shot from three different angles (from ground level position).

I'm sorry but I can't find a link for this, but as far as I'm aware the 3 shots very much so could have been achieved in the set time from the first shot to the final and fatal shot, something that's seemingly proven in video evidence. The only issue is the fact that even though you could have achieved all 3 shots, the chances of hitting “the target” here are very very VERY slim indeed. Practically impossible.

Oswald himself wasn't even, again, this is as far as I'm aware, a very good shot and you have to take into account that this was also a moving target and that's not forgetting the sheer pressure he would be under given the importance of this shot to him and the potential consequences if he was to miss.

Assuming, Oswald was shooter of course – something I sooooooo disagree with.

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by Anunaki10

 

The real investigation show that it is impossible that a rifle could had shot all three shots within few seconds. The investigation also states that all three shots were shot from three different angles (from ground level position).

I'm sorry but I can't find a link for this, but as far as I'm aware the 3 shots very much so could have been achieved in the set time from the first shot to the final and fatal shot, something that's seemingly proven in video evidence. The only issue is the fact that even though you could have achieved all 3 shots, the chances of hitting “the target” here are very very VERY slim indeed. Practically impossible.

Oswald himself wasn't even, again, this is as far as I'm aware, a very good shot and you have to take into account that this was also a moving target and that's not forgetting the sheer pressure he would be under given the importance of this shot to him and the potential consequences if he was to miss.

Assuming, Oswald was shooter of course – something I sooooooo disagree with.

I forgot to mention that like also said in my Marilyn thread that i'm not drawing any conclusion, and we may never know the truth (unfortunately). But nevertheless indeed an intriguing conspiracy story.
I wish there was a link mentioning the three shots fired from three different angles at ground level position. I think it was from the JFK movie were Kevin Costner played the attorney Jim Garrison who investigated the JFK assassination, were i got these informations about the three shots from, were he also mentioned that these three shots couldn't had been fired from the same rifle, load and aim, shoot the first shot, load and aim, shoot the second shot, load and aim, shoot the third shot, all these three shots fired within few seconds, seems impossible to me, especially considering if these three shots were fired from a building from high level position. I assume the JFK movie describes the real investigation www.youtube.com... It was in 1991 or 1992 i watched that JFK movie, so it's long time ago i watched it. I will try see what i can bring up.

Yes, Oswald as a shooter - something i also sooooooo disagree with

Lee Harvey Oswald spent weeks in training as a rifleman in the Marine Corps back before the M-16 and spray and pray shooting became a common practice due to problems with the ammunition and the lack of visible targets in the densely overgrown rain forest of Vietnam..... As a Marine, it is a requirement that you maintain you proficiency with the weapons you are qualified to shoot as long as you are in the Corps...... If anyone could pull of that shot a Marine could have with ease..... I was at the assassination site a few hours after the shooting and spent many hours over the years studying the possible positions from which a rifleman could have fired from.... I've read many books , listened to recordings of the police radio transmissions and have talked to law enforcement people that were there that day.....Oswald was there because he had been trained as a Marine and could shoot better than the average Marine which is better than 98% of the rest of the population.... He was also involved with the CIA and in training of Cuban expatriates in Louisiana and Florida.... The trip to the USSR had to have been some implemented deal to set him up at a later date as a patsy for use when needed..... I don't think he was innocent of being involved and having knowledge of what was happening but for some reason I came to the conclusion that he was not the trigger man that killed JFK or officer J.D. Tippet based on a lot of reading, listening to people that knew things, memories of the day itself and days leading up to it... There are so many people that have been coming up with theories for the last 47 years since the event that if there is ever a release of the truth, TPTB will have a wealth of research to put to use when they compose their story.

reply to post by hypervigilant

Lee Harvey Oswald spent weeks in training as a rifleman in the Marine Corps back before the M-16 and spray and pray shooting became a common practice due to problems with the ammunition and the lack of visible targets in the densely overgrown rain forest of Vietnam..... As a Marine, it is a requirement that you maintain you proficiency with the weapons you are qualified to shoot as long as you are in the Corps...... If anyone could pull of that shot a Marine could have with ease

Just because he was involved with the marines, that in no way means he was a good shot ....

Could Oswald have shot Kennedy? What kind of a marksman was he? Was he known as a skilled rifleman by those who saw him shoot? Or, was Oswald in fact a rather poor shot who was incapable of doing what the Commission claimed he did, as many researchers have concluded? Let us now answer these questions.

------Oswald's Marine Rifle Scores------

Even after weeks of practice and intensive training, Oswald barely managed to qualify at the level of "Sharpshooter," the middle of three rifle qualification levels in the Marines. He obtained a score of 212, two points above the minimum for the "Sharpshooter" level. In other words, even after extensive training and practice, and even though he was firing at stationary targets with a semi-automatic rifle and had plenty of time to shoot (even during the so-called "rapid-fire" phase), Oswald narrowly missed scoring at the lowest possible qualification level.

The next time Oswald fired for record in the Marines, he barely managed to qualify at all, obtaining a score of 191, which was one point above the minimum needed for the lowest qualification level, "Marksman." To put it another way, he came within two points of failing to qualify.

------Three Marine Colleagues------

Nelson Delgado, Sherman Cooley, and James R. Persons served with Oswald in the Marines and saw him shoot. Here is some of what they had to say about his marksmanship ability:

* Nelson Delgado

Before the Warren Commission:

Q. Did you fire with Oswald?

DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his [shooting]. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Q. Missed the target completely?

DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know going to the range. (8 H 235)

In a filmed interview with attorney Mark Lane:

LANE. Sergeant, prior to your Warren Commission testimony, were you interviewed by agents of the FBI?

DELGADO. Yes, they came to my home in south Jersey to interview me. The first two visits, they came just to get my story--what I knew about Oswald, how close we were, and things like that. After that, the questions were tending [to try] to break my story down. . . .

LANE. When did you first meet Oswald?

DELGADO. Just prior to the Christmas of 1958, Lee Oswald reported into our unit. Oswald and I got along really good together. We were, like I say, working in the same job, involving aircraft and radar. We controlled them from the ground, and ran intercepts. We were about forty enlisted men who participated in this job.

All of us knew Lee, and he knew all of us. We got along fine. We had discussions, and, uh [stops].

LANE. Was Oswald interested in guns?

DELGADO. They [the Warren Commission] say he was a gun enthusiast, but I recall many instances where we stood inspections, and he was constantly being gigged for having a dirty weapon and for taking improper care of his weapon. He was always reminded when he had to clean the weapon. He never took it upon himself to do so.

LANE. Do you have personal knowledge of Oswald's ability with a rifle?

DELGADO. At the range he couldn't prove by me that he was a good shot.

As any person who has ever served in the armed forces could tell you, there's a part in the qualification that calls for rapid firing. This is done with ten shots, eight in the clip and two that you load by hand. They give you forty-five seconds to fire these ten rounds. Well, when you fire these, then you stand you stand away from your firing position, till everyone has finished firing. Then the targets are brought down and scored. The targets are run back up, and there are disks for the number that you have hit--fives, fours, threes, or misses.

Well, in Oswald's particular case, it was quite funny to look at, because he would get a couple of disks. Maybe out of a possible ten he'll get two or three Maggie's drawers. Now, these [the Maggie's drawers] are a red flag that's on a long pole, and this is running from left to right on the target itself. And, you don't see this on a firing line too often--not a Marine firing line. You can't help but noticing when you're seeing disks, round cylinder things, coming up and down, and farther on down the line you see a flag waving [i.e., a Maggie's drawer]. Well, that was gonna catch your eye anyway. And we thought it was funny that Oswald was getting these Maggie's drawers so rapidly, one after the other. And this is why I can't think that he could be a good shot, because a good shot doesn't pull this. He'll pull a three, but he won't pull a Maggie's drawer-- that's a complete miss.

LANE. How did the FBI react to your statement that Oswald was a poor shot?

DELGADO. They tried to disprove it. They did not like the idea when I came up with the statement that Oswald, as far as I knew, was a very poor shot.

LANE. Do you feel that the agents of the FBI actually tried to get you to change your statement that Oswald was a poor shot.

DELGADO. Yes, sir, I definitely do. (From the 1966 documentary RUSH TO JUDGMENT, produced by Mark Lane and Emile de Antonio)

- Please see this link for the rest of this information -

So no, he was seemingly not a good shot at all and the fact he was in the marines proves absolutely nothing to disprove this.

Oswald was there because he had been trained as a Marine and could shoot better than the average Marine which is better than 98% of the rest of the population

No, he wasn’t a good shot, let alone be better than most marines. Please read the above information.

I don't think he was innocent of being involved and having knowledge of what was happening but for some reason I came to the conclusion that he was not the trigger man that killed JFK or officer J.D.Tippet based on a lot of reading, listening to people that knew things, memories of the day itself and days leading up to it...

Care to elaborate?

reply to post by Rising Against
I read onec tht it was over 300 witnesses that "died" within a few years.

reply to post by Logarock


Personally, I think that's a huge exaggeration if I was to be completely honest.

Many have died under what was extremely suspicious circumstances yes, but 300 in a few years is a bit of a stretch of the imagination from where I am. If you could prove me wrong though, please do.

it was a scoped rifle, fired by a trained marksman. depending on the magnification of the scope and how good it was zeroed, jfk's head could have looked like a giant watermelon on the cross hairs. and these large cal. rifles are extremely accurate at close range, it would've been like a laser pointer in its trajectory. especially on a bullet going on a downward angle taking gravity, distance and drop out of the equation. the shots aren't impossible but extremely impressive. for a shooter, heavily focused as oswald appears to be, time must have slowed down to for an eternity making the shoots possible. also wasn't it confirmed by jfk's wife herself that in the zapruder film, the frames where she is reaching back, was that she was picking up pieces of his brain in a state of shock, hoping to put his head back together.

If Oswald hadn't qualified during boot camp training during the 2 weeks at Edson Range on the west coast or it's equivalent on the east coast he would have never gotten out of boot camp. We fired from the standing, kneeling, sitting and prone positions from distances of 100 meters, 200 meters, 300 meters and 500 meters .... Also consider that David Ferrie was an instructor in the Civilian Air Control unit that Oswald was in and he had received rifle training there as well... Oswald was involved in training anti Castro Cubans for an invasion force that was to perform raids and espionage operations on the island with funding coming from C.I.A. sources... He was witnessed at a target range on West Jefferson Street shooting so well that everyone stopped to watch him and for kicks when others on the range would put out a new target he would fire bulls eyes on them before they could squeeze of a shot... A guy I went to school with named Sterling Wood that is now a podiatrist, in the Oak Cliff part of Dallas witnessed this and was interviewed by the feds because his father and he took Oswald to within a block of the house he lived in on north Beckley. He could have easily made the shot.... If you were ever to spend some time at Dealey Plaza and think about how slow that convoy had to be going to make that left turn from Houston Street onto Elm right in front of the school book depository you could see that a dead on shot would be easy to do from that 3rd floor window.... You can also see numerous other places that would be even better suited as a position to fire from.... Regardless of Oswald's proficiency with a rifle his purpose there was to serve as a patsy.

reply to post by hypervigilant


Anyway you can at the very least try and back up you claims?

Regardless of Oswald's proficiency with a rifle his purpose there was to serve as a patsy.

Are you trying to say he was a willing patsy?

reply to post by Rising Against

If a person is a patsy it isn't by choice.... For one thing the rifle that was immediately found in the School Book Depository was identified as a Mauser by a police officer that worked part time at the largest dealer of firearms in the city and an expert on fire arms.... There were no fingerprints found by the police or FBI on the 6.5mm Italian Carcano until officers went to the Fort Worth funeral home that was preparing Oswald's body with the rifle and were left alone with the body. Afterwards a palm print was found on the forward piece of the stock..... At the location where officer J.D.Tippit was killed there were expended shells from a .38 Super and Oswalds wallet was also dropped there... When Oswald was arrested at the Texas Theater we was carrying a a Smith&Wesson Military and Police model revolver that doesn't eject cartridges or fire the .38 Super round and there were photographs of police officers removing his billfold from his pocket.... I can go on and on about this... It happened in an area I was familiar with and I have been following it by reading and talking to others that were around back then and have the same recollections.... There are many stories with different slants and suspects but it has been evident for many years that there was more than one person that was popping up here and there prior to the assassination going by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald in an effort to have a single suspect with strong circumstantial evidence that could be eliminated before he could be tried in court..... It was odd to me that there were people that were very suspicious leaving the area with weapons in the back of a white station wagon headed west on Commerce street and police were told to ignore the vehicle and proceed to the area where one of the Oswalds lived, followed by his description.

This is a bummer to say and could be merely coincidence, but

I am usually pretty good at cross referencing faces. It is something I learned from watching old movies with my dad when I was growing up. He would always quiz me about where I had seen actors before. He would say, "do you recognize that guy, what else has he played in?" It would be up to me and my brothers to figure out what other movies or shows that the actor in question played in.

With that being said: Look at the amber looking enhanced photo of the shooter from the grassy knoll, labeled as new image in the text above the photo. In the picture you can see a lot of the face of the shooter. This person has a distinct look about the forehead and hairline shape. Does anyone else think this hairline and forehead shape match someone we all would lovingly refer to as "Senior" I am just saying I have seen this, rumored to be dark, person lurking in the background in a lot of photo's after tragic events in that era of the subjected timeline.

In 1973, I was watching a PBS program about the JFK assassination. The one thing that caught my attention and has stayed with me all of these years ... a photo of a man behind the white fence, holding a rifle aimed towards the street where JFK's car was. That was the only time I've ever seen this photo. Has anyone else ever seen the same pic?

Just saw on TV (the history channel) a documentary is being prepared to be shown on the anniversary of JFK's assassination that's more than worth a watch. It should air on the 22nd so if possible, please take the time to watch as it seems like it will be a very enlightening documentary..

I believe this was it:

The Kennedy Assassination – 24 Hours After

Thanks..

Just giving this thread a quick bump since it's the anniversary of the death of JFK.