Philosophical reasoning that "God" in whatever form it may be, exists., page 2

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reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 08:25 AM by DisappearCompletely

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

Yeah, I couldn't really care less about what your definition of god is, all I was saying is that your definition is no more correct than any other interpretation made. Do you honestly think you're the only person to "understand god" through personal experience in the entire history of man kind?

Hey Randy, better check your closet tonight for the Boogeyman, I hear he magically jumped out of the dictionary since words apparently have the power to manifest themselves into reality. Also, we had better start being prepared for all of the vampires, zombies, werewolves, and whatever else we thought was used for good fantasty/sci-fi fiction, since those words exist too!

I wonder if Gandalf is free for lunch today..

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 10:13 AM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by mryanbrown

This is a very simplified form of the Ontological Argument

In short it goes like this:

1: Posit a being with every perfection
2: Existing is more perfect than not existing
3: Therefore this being exists
4: This being shall be referred to as 'God'

The problem with it being that there is no logical justification to say that existence is more perfect than nonexistence, the labeling of this entity as a deity is also not necessary, as well as a whole host of other problems.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 10:16 AM by xiphias

Originally posted by Titen-SxullAll of which make far more sense as evolutionary survival mechanisms

I'm surprised anybody picked up on that one.

Supposedly laughing evolved from barking/huffing/puffing. And heartbreak: who knows...

edit on 28-9-2010 by xiphias because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 06:29 PM by gift0fpr0phecy

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely
reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

Yeah, I couldn't really care less about what your definition of god is, all I was saying is that your definition is no more correct than any other interpretation made.

How are you going to tell me my definition is no more correct if you don't care to understand my definition? If you don't know the definition of God, who are you to say it is incorrect? In order to understand what is correct or incorrect you must know the answer. Do you know the true definition of the word God?

How do you prove God does or does not exist if you don't define it?

You must be the type that insists God doesn't exist even though you don't know what God is, and you don't have any clear definition for God. Or you are the type that gets all definitions from every source, packing them all together into one definition, and basing your idea that God does or does not exist on this collection of conflicting definitions. Either way, your approach is illogical.

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely
Do you honestly think you're the only person to "understand god" through personal experience in the entire history of man kind?

No. Did I say I thought that?

However, I do know that millions of people only believe in a "God" because someone gave them the idea and definition. I didn't have someone give me the idea or definition.

Through science, I have come to understand how the entire universe operates as one whole entity, and that whole entity is my creator (FACT). Included inside of this whole entity is everything I know, and everything anyone knows, so inside of this entity is all knowledge. Also included in this whole entity is all energy that I, or anyone, has ever known. This energy exist everywhere at all times, and combined together it is all the power that has and will ever exist, so this entity is all powerful, and omnipresent.

Not many people come to their own understanding of the definition of God, but I am not saying I am the only one.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 07:41 PM by DisappearCompletely

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
How are you going to tell me my definition is no more correct if you don't care to understand my definition? If you don't know the definition of God, who are you to say it is incorrect? In order to understand what is correct or incorrect you must know the answer. Do you know the true definition of the word God?

Are you trolling or do you just have comprehension issues? Of course I know the definitions for the word itself; there are many, and while you may think there is a true definition, there isn't. This is what I was trying to point out by saying that your personal perspective on the matter is no more correct than a Yogi, Shaman, or Priest. Reality is generally subjective, so trying to pass off your own thoughts as a universal truth is simple arrogance.

Also, simply defining a word doesn't make someone or something manifest into reality.

How do you prove God does or does not exist if you don't define it?

How can you prove that I'm not riding a unicorn to mars while breathing rainbows to keep me alive? You can't. The same way I can't prove, beyond a doubt, that a universal intelligence or god (or whatever you want to call it) exists. That's why there's a word called faith.

You must be the type that insists God doesn't exist even though you don't know what God is, and you don't have any clear definition for God. Or you are the type that gets all definitions from every source, packing them all together into one definition, and basing your idea that God does or does not exist on this collection of conflicting definitions. Either way, your approach is illogical.

Or I'm the type that really doesn't fit into your narrow and ignorant descriptions. I'd really drop the nonsensical assumptions if you don't want to appear a mental midget.

No. Did I say I thought that?

However, I do know that millions of people only believe in a "God" because someone gave them the idea and definition. I didn't have someone give me the idea or definition.

That's great and all, but it doesn't mean your belief is any more valid than another person's. I'm sure you think they are, though.

Through science, I have come to understand how the entire universe operates as one whole entity, and that whole entity is my creator (FACT). Included inside of this whole entity is everything I know, and everything anyone knows, so inside of this entity is all knowledge. Also included in this whole entity is all energy that I, or anyone, has ever known. This energy exist everywhere at all times, and combined together it is all the power that has and will ever exist, so this entity is all powerful, and omnipresent.

That's great! Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide everyone with your peer reviewed paper and/or your raw data and calculations / theorems since you have obviously solved all the problems in the universe. I would be greatly in your debt (and I'm sure everyone else would be as well) if you could prove to everyone that god exists through science (real science, that is).

Not many people come to their own understanding of the definition of God, but I am not saying I am the only one.

Yeah obviously, I mean the existence of god hasn't been the most philosophized topic in the history of man kind; it's too bad they've all been too ignorant to try and find their own truths. Only you and a small handful of people have ever been clever enough to come up with your own perspective, amirite?

While true a lot of people are indoctrinated at a young age, your presumptions are only based in ignorance.

Someone, with no empirical, testable, or even viewable evidence (until you can provide it) claiming he has found the true perspective of god, whilst almost declaring everyone else wrong in the same breath is logical, but me, no, I'm the illogical one. Thanks for the laugh.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 08:43 PM by gift0fpr0phecy

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely
Are you trolling or do you just have comprehension issues?

I'm trying to have a conversation with you and insulting me by insisting I am a troll and can't comprehend what you write tells me you are too immature to do such a thing.

I am putting you on ignore now. I know your type. You are worthless.

edit on 28-9-2010 by gift0fpr0phecy because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 08:54 PM by Romantic_Rebel

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

What are you guys arguing about here? I would like to jump into the storm.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 09:16 PM by DisappearCompletely

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

Not really sure how that is an insult. Having to explain my point multiple times while having it misunderstood is a little tiring, which is why I asked. But I guess it's easier to deflect everyone that doesn't agree with you. Kind of disappointing actually since I was looking forward to your scientific proof of god.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 09:22 PM by DisappearCompletely

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

Typical religious thread actually: He's right, everyone else is wrong, and will ignore anyone who disagrees with him.

reply posted on 28-9-2010 @ 09:24 PM by gift0fpr0phecy

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

Well, that guy who thinks he is a worthless accident is trying to tell me that my definition of God is wrong when he himself doesn't even know the definition.

Then he erroneously compares belief in God to belief in imaginary things...

God was originally a name given to life and the universe itself. Unless life and the universe is imaginary, comparing God to space traveling unicorns is hilariously idiotic.

Then he actually asks for scientific proof that the entire universe is a whole entity.

Little does he know that I am the universe, and I am an entity.... and you are too!

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 05:00 AM by imnotbncre8ive

Originally posted by mryanbrown
I just had this conversation in chat, and thought it was worth bringing the concept to the boards.

"Do you know how I know there's a being greater than man? Because the concept exists. History is a vacuum, it only has it's self to draw from. If there wasn't such a thing as a God or higher being, we wouldn't even have had the notion because there would have been nothing to draw upon the idea from."

Epic lulz.

"Do you know how I know there's a pink elephant? Because the concept exists. History is a vacuum, it only has it's self to draw from. If there wasn't such a thing as a pink elephant or colorful being, we wouldn't even have had the notion because there would have been nothing to draw upon the idea from."

I believe that when you die, Jesus reincarnates you into a fat laughing Buddha statue.

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 05:14 AM by catwhoknows

There are no answers within human reason.

Give up before you go mad.

I have majored in philosophy and the professors have no answer.

Do yourself a favour and live the life you have.

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 05:51 AM by snowen20

Like all threads of this sort, these questions really are aimed at sparking argumentative debate between deity believers and non deity believers.
Moreover ultimately all these "pseudo-debates" are 100% pointless because people have been and always will be trapped inside what they choose to believe. Sometimes being trapped is a choice. This is the case for the Atheist and Believer alike. There may be a percentage of people that if presented with facts may begin to accept an alternate view. However considering how many times people have gone to their death for what they believed I would say if change were possible it would of happened long ago.

I am not given power by an invisible sky man to sway the minds of unbelievers, nor can an Atheist sway the minds of those who believe in a deity. The question then becomes....What are you gonna do about it?
Continue ad nauseam to regurgitate the same old crap between one another hoping to make some enlightening statement? It wont work I promise.

Here is an example:
The Atheist has said..Even if their turns out to be a God I would just rather be sent to hell rather than to serve a tyrant ass hole.

The believer says...Even if somehow God is proven 100% to be a man made idea and counts for nothing, I would rather believe and not take a chance than to accept the possible loss for my transgression" DOUBLE SPEAK!!

The point is, that as long as man exists there will be those who put their faith in a god for prosperity, and that will never change. Just like as time goes by there will always be those who place their faith in Science for prosperity and knowledge.

DO I rely need to define faith before someone tries to tell me otherwise?

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 08:48 PM by imnotbncre8ive

Originally posted by snowen20
Like all threads of this sort, these questions really are aimed at sparking argumentative debate between deity believers and non deity believers.
Moreover ultimately all these "pseudo-debates" are 100% pointless because people have been and always will be trapped inside what they choose to believe. Sometimes being trapped is a choice. This is the case for the Atheist and Believer alike. There may be a percentage of people that if presented with facts may begin to accept an alternate view. However considering how many times people have gone to their death for what they believed I would say if change were possible it would of happened long ago.

Atheists are open to a changes in their positions, if provided sufficient evidence. A religious believer clings to his ideology in the face of contradictory evidence. I can't understand how this point is consistently missed. Let me guess - you believe in the Judeo-Christian God? Why don't you believe in the Buddha?

Originally posted by snowen20
The Atheist has said..Even if their turns out to be a God I would just rather be sent to hell rather than to serve a tyrant ass hole.

You mischaracterize the vast majority of atheists. How can you expect me to take anything you say seriously now?

edit on 17-10-2010 by imnotbncre8ive because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 09:37 PM by snowen20

reply to post by imnotbncre8ive

Funny you speak in contradiction. Because just as atheists like to paint deity believers with the a broad brush so too can Atheist be painted the same way. Just because that can be done does not make it accurate nor does it make it ethically correct.
As a matter of fact on multiple occasions while here on ATS those who openly claim to not believe in a superior life form, (in this case a god and more specifically Judaeo Christian God) have stated quite frankly that even if proof were found and or they were confronted with "evidence" as you claim, that they would just assume deny that deity and suffer whatever comes next.

Another point I was making that you so conveniently seemed to miss was that Both nonbelievers and believers ALIKE suffer from the same issue. In this case that issue is a blocked mind to anything that could possibly make what they believe fraudulent or nonexistent. Claiming that there is a difference between one or other is ridiculous considering the aforementioned points made where people have died in favor of what they, (and get this)....choose... to believe.

Conversely, I consider it funny that some people again both believer and nonbeliever would just as easily deny a belief to save their lives.

Can an atheist be confronted with evidence and then change their mind? Uhh...DUH obviously. Just like there have been plenty of Believers in a god change their mind and accept what is given as science.

Though I like to consider people with open minds to be the wisest of us all. Please consider the following quote:
"It should not surprise us if a phenomenon that is inaccessible to a scientific procedure appears irrational."
astronomer J. Allen Hynek

Is this quote open to interpretation? No.. considering it was made to explain why things such as UFOs and possible Alien technology elude mankind.

When placed into such a perspective as that, and rationalizing your former comments, only one possible question remains.............How can I possibly take you seriously?

Quite frankly, the best way you can prove your point is by not replying to this, nor even expressing a view for others to see, since doing so will only show that you feel compelled to spread an idea and or a philosophy, something I would expect an Atheist to avoid; since compulsion denotes conviction and likewise denotes fervor.
Things that are best left to the religiously inclined and believers in gods.

At any rate, what difference would what I choose to believe have an impact on you? You will hopefully be the tough guy or girl I hope you are and say.."none at all." You would be correct then we can live our lives believing peaceably what makes us feel complete as sentient beings. Can we not both agree to this one simple part of this ridiculous equation? That what one believes so long as it is not forced upon another should not have an effect on worldly outcomes?

Regards:

reply posted on 17-10-2010 @ 09:48 PM by platipus

you can find major religions of the old days connected with one another, if people took some time to study them. you wont be surprised at the information you can obtain from wiki about these religions and culture of the old days if you took the time to seek these knowledge lazy people take for granted otherwise.

there isn't any wrong and right religion. humans just have different ways of describing what they experience so it's not going to seem like they are even similar.

reply posted on 18-10-2010 @ 02:05 AM by snowen20

I just don't see what people have a against those who wish to practice religion. If it is indeed religion that has been created in times past that allows a person to have a set pf principles to live by, and if it is that framework of principles that makes a person better outwardly and inwardly whats the harm?

It is true that if not kept in check religion can be a dangerous thing, not unlike politics and science. Im sorry to say it is all relative. Not because of the systems humans live by but because of people in general. Typically driven by power and greed in every facet of human scheming, be it religion, science, business or anything else.

As long as those groups are policed they are quite harmless. People like to blame religion for the worlds woes especially warfare. But just as many battles have been fought over land, freedom, and resources.
When people find something to believe in, something to live by, that becomes their most valuable resource and you can expect them to fight to the death to protect it.

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