Any Dog can be taught to pray

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I also believe that this power should come under the authority of the individual, and to the degree that someone continues to stridently believe in a story "given" to them, then their lives are ultimately being guided by someone else.

Once again, everybody's lives are being guided by other people.

Nobody has any power, authority or personal autonomy over their lives and thought process, because every point of reference in our memories and thought constructs are based on experiences involving environmental factors and personal interactions that we have no control over.

For someone to genuinely believe that they have control or authority over their own existence, then that is delusional.

edit on 24-9-2010 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)

Which is why it makes perfect sense to assume no authority outside of yourself when making decisions of a personal nature. The only moral code required is "How is this working toward my pursuit of happiness".

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

Now who's preaching..

Why do you even care anyway?

For the record. My dog can sit, sit pretty, stay, roll over, shake, speak, touch (jumping and then touching my hand on command).. Doesn't mean anything.

edit on 24-9-2010 by DaMod because: (no reason given)

Good point...

I can say the same thing about the actions of some people I know.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Which is why it makes perfect sense to assume no authority outside of yourself when making decisions of a personal nature. The only moral code required is "How is this working toward my pursuit of happiness".

The point being, though, that nobody has any personal authority. It's an illusion.

The only reason someone would believe that they have genuine control or authority, is as a coping mechanism to block out the fact that we are slaves to our own bodies and our environment.

You said yourself:

''Take back your authority... Be your own god.... stop believing in the fairy tales which were given to you.... instead, make up your own! I guarantee you, it will be better than what you have now. ''

You are telling people to take back their authority, but if they took your advice, they would be doing the opposite of taking personal responsibility. They would have been guided and influenced by your words, and not by any thoughts of their own making.

Originally posted by yeahright

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
The only moral code required is "How is this working toward my pursuit of happiness".

That's not a moral code, that's an emotional whim. "The proper value is whatever you happen to value" is license, not code.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

As an American, it is my highest code... Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Great video! What a cute (and well-trained) puppy! And I see and agree with your point.

Originally posted by DrChuck
Oh please, are you serious? So a prayer is merely kneeling down and bowing your head?

I'd guess that for 99% of the children and 80% of adults, that's EXACTLY what it is. The same thing going through that dog's head while his head was bowed is going through most people's heads while someone else is reciting the words.

I wasn't aware that you had mindreading ability for the entire religious population. A prayer is much more than merely a kneeling position with clasped hands. Its a acknowledgement of a higher power, asking for guidance in times of toil, repentance for ones own conscious regrets, thankfulness for whatever we are grateful for.
Before you go speculating what goes through most peoples heads during a prayer why don't ask some? Your view of prayer is much misguided.

As an American, it is my highest code... Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Putting labels aside, such as an "American"...what is your highest code as a human? America does not define humanity nor its ethical and moral codes, its just a large piece of land where people reside with a certain set of rules and ideals set by other humans, nothing more.

You said earlier that the only moral code is to pursue ones happiness, thats a very dangerous code. More likely to end in your demise than bring you happiness. Its a license to take whatever action necessary, no matter the consequences to others, for your own fulfillment.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Indeed, I am encouraging others to figure out what to do for themselves. I'm asking others to wake up to the fact that in all of their major changes in life from one belief system to another, they are not really changing at all... simply looking for the answer outside...

I'm perfectly comfortable with paradoxes like this.

For example, the only thing I am ever certain of is that conviction is a blindness.


But what you seem to fail to realize, is that there is a reason we humans do this... its because we are TRAINED to do this as children, much like this dog is being trained. And since we are all trained dogs... in order to change that we need to become our own masters.

All I'm saying to the other dogs.. is stop listening to your external masters. Unless of course you are extremely happy already being submissive....

Originally posted by yeahright

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
As an American, it is my highest code... Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

It may be a goal, but it isn't a code. A moral code is a system of rules, a definition of values which delineate what is considered to be virtuous. Your happiness may be a personal purpose, but it isn't a standard. Unless you're 5 years old.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

I agree, and it is a very simply set of rules and values. And though its listed as Pursuit in the words of our founding fathers, it is an everyday state of existence for me.

The first and only value is freedom for the pursuit of happiness.

The only rule is to do whatever it takes to maintain that happiness, no matter what any moral code stipulates. Now for some, this might mean being altruistic. For others it might mean being lazy.

Now not to wax religious but I seem to recall Jesus saying something about entering the kingdom as a child. I don't claim to know what is meant by that, but yes I have found that even at age 37, its only when I approach the world as a child would that I find happiness. It's when I begin to assume the same woes and perspectives of those around me (and on the MSM) and see those perspectives as valid that my own real authority begins to slip away.

Many times in my own pursuit of happiness I find myself following the moral codes of others out of a respect which brings me good will from others, which of course adds to my happiness. I follow the laws of my land (within reason... We all speed from time to time) because I wish to maintain my freedom and the laws seem reasonable to me and don't interfere with my freedom.

But what I will never do is let someone else stipulate what SHOULD be important to me. I don't believe in right and wrong, only that which works towards enriching ones happiness...

Like I said... simple value... simple rule... even simple minds can grasp it...

Originally posted by DrChuck
I wasn't aware that you had mindreading ability for the entire religious population.

I don't. It was just a guess. My opinion. The reason I say that is that most of the time when I was growing up, when my parents recited the prayers at various occasions during the day, my mind, and my brothers' and sister's minds were on other things most of the time. I've also observed MANY people praying and I've seen them talking, whispering, looking at each other, etc.

A prayer is much more than merely a kneeling position with clasped hands.

That's true. My point was that many times, when people bow their heads and go through the motion of prayer, the ritual in the company of others, they're not praying at all. Sorry for the confusion.

I think the same thing is true of saying the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the National Anthem and other such rituals of society in the US. We do it for show, so they'll know that we're patriotic. And if you don't believe that, show me someone who salutes the flag and sings the National Anthem or says the Pledge of Allegiance when they're entirely alone.

Now THAT'S a patriot! Or a nutjob. One or the other.

Praying is different. One can (and in my opinion should) pray alone. Being in church and feeling obliged to bow the head and close the eyes along with everyone else when the leader instructs, just reinforces the pattern of "tricks" we're taught as havoc mentioned on page one. Positive Reinforcement. It's training. Like dog training.

That's just my opinion. I can't read minds or anything.

The reason I say that is that most of the time when I was growing up, when my parents recited the prayers at various occasions during the day, my mind, and my brothers' and sister's minds were on other things most of the time. I've also observed MANY people praying and I've seen them talking, whispering, looking at each other, etc.

My point was that many times, when people bow their heads and go through the motion of prayer, the ritual in the company of others, they're not praying at all. Sorry for the confusion.

Praying is different. One can (and in my opinion should) pray alone. Being in church and feeling obliged to bow the head and close the eyes along with everyone else when the leader instructs, just reinforces the pattern of "tricks" we're taught as havoc mentioned on page one. Positive Reinforcement.

It's training. Like dog training.

That's just my opinion. I can't read minds or anything.

Yes I agree that many do practice the "motion" of prayer, and I myself have seen it also. But don't forget to acknowledge that just as many are actually praying. A prayer can be made while walking in a park or driving in a car, or even in the middle of the sermon the leader is performing.

And as children nobody likes to pray, I for one can vouch for that. And it is also true that theists "train" or teach their progeny to pray. But what aren't we trained in as children? We certainly needed to be potty trained, or trained to clothed ourselves, keep tidy, brush our teeth, respect others, self control, and a plethora of other behaviors and habits.

Positive Reinforcement? You can't use that argument unless you believe that the power of prayer is true. The only positive reinforcement in prayer is the positive outcome of the prayer.

Nobody is obliged to bow their heads and pretend to pray in a church or any religious institution. It is the individuals own discomfort that obliges them. There is a reason why the leader instructs the congregation to pray together, its the same reason children at school are required to come to class at a certain time and eat meals at certain time. Its organization.

Originally posted by DrChuck

As an American, it is my highest code... Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Putting labels aside, such as an "American"...what is your highest code as a human? America does not define humanity nor its ethical and moral codes, its just a large piece of land where people reside with a certain set of rules and ideals set by other humans, nothing more.

You said earlier that the only moral code is to pursue ones happiness, thats a very dangerous code. More likely to end in your demise than bring you happiness. Its a license to take whatever action necessary, no matter the consequences to others, for your own fulfillment.

My highest value is being happy.

But you point out why many people don't simply follow that. Fear of demise.

Well, a life lived in fear is not a life lived. If I would have continued to have the same perspective that you exhibit, I would not be as happy as I am right this moment. I don't fear any hell or seek for any heaven...

I'm simply happy.

Originally posted by DrChuck
A prayer can be made while walking in a park or driving in a car, or even in the middle of the sermon the leader is performing.

Absolutely. That's really what I'm saying. A prayer should be made when 'the spirit' moves one to pray, not necessarily when someone tells you it's time to pray. At least that's my understanding.

And as children nobody likes to pray, I for one can vouch for that.

So, why are they doing it? THAT'S the positive reinforcement I'm talking about. The KIDS were reinforced for going through the motion of prayer, so they do it, hoping for more positive reinforcement. I'm not suggesting that people get what they want from prayer.

But what aren't we trained in as children? We certainly needed to be potty trained, or trained to clothed ourselves, keep tidy, brush our teeth, respect others, self control, and a plethora of other behaviors and habits.

But ALL children are taught these things. Everyone has to be able to dress themselves and learn to live in society. The teaching of prayer as a ritual is just a "trick", that for many, carries on into adulthood, where it then gains meaning to them.

Nobody is obliged to bow their heads and pretend to pray in a church or any religious institution. It is the individuals own discomfort that obliges them.

Yes, and why are they uncomfortable? Because everyone else is praying and they want to "fit in" (positive reinforcement).

Absolutely. That's really what I'm saying. A prayer should be made when 'the spirit' moves one to pray, not necessarily when someone tells you it's time to pray. At least that's my understanding.

Explain to me why a prayer should be a certain way? I never stated that prayer should be made when someone instructs it, a church is where people of the same faith can come together to worship and partake in fellowship. A structured session does not imply a training regimen.

So, why are they doing it? THAT'S the positive reinforcement I'm talking about. The KIDS were reinforced for going through the motion of prayer, so they do it, hoping for more positive reinforcement. I'm not suggesting that people get what they want from prayer.

But ALL children are taught these things. Everyone has to be able to dress themselves and learn to live in society. The teaching of prayer as a ritual is just a "trick", that for many, carries on into adulthood, where it then gains meaning to them.

You keep forgetting that people who practice a faith consider dressing yourself just as important as communicating with ones deity. You may brush off prayer as a waste of energy to a nonexistent being, and consider religion a fancy parody of hocus pocus and abracadabra. But those who practice it do not, it is a significant part of their livelihood. And as such will teach their children how to pray and consider it just as important as the fundamentals of living in society.

Yes, and why are they uncomfortable? Because everyone else is praying and they want to "fit in" (positive reinforcement).

But discomfort isn't a reason to be conforming. They have every right to leave, or not pray. A church is not a forced obligation, those that are there are there on their own will. And just to clarify its not positive reinforcement your talking about, its negative reinforcement, which is the removal of a negative stimulant to bring about a desired response.


By the way I am thoroughly enjoying this debate with you. Very intelligent and thought out. This is why ATS is so great. Thanks.

What I'm saying is that in my opinion, it should be a communication between a person and his god, not a ritual of conformity. That's all.

Originally posted by DrChuck
A church is not a forced obligation, those that are there are there on their own will.

I'm not saying it is, but are you denying that the people FEEL obliged to bow their heads and close their eyes, even if they have nothing to pray about? I'm not suggesting the church obliges them.

And just to clarify its not positive reinforcement your talking about, its negative reinforcement, which is the removal of a negative stimulant to bring about a desired response.

When a child is learning it, it's positive reinforcement. Parents praise their children for doing it. But you're right, later on, as adults, to avoid being the odd one out, they go through the motion, even if they don't actually "pray".

This is why ATS is so great.

You got that right!

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
This is a great thread. Hopefully creationists can see were we are coming from on this subject.

Hahahah Nah its' just a cool video.. bugger the god stuff.

Wicked dog, love him to bits.. !!!

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Wait -- You were serious?

Oh for chrtists sake..

WOW..

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Great video! What a cute (and well-trained) puppy! And I see and agree with your point.

Originally posted by DrChuck
Oh please, are you serious? So a prayer is merely kneeling down and bowing your head?

I'd guess that for 99% of the children and 80% of adults, that's EXACTLY what it is. The same thing going through that dog's head while his head was bowed is going through most people's heads while someone else is reciting the words.

99% of children would chase cars if we didn't EDUCATE them.... 80% of people? don't know what they're doing when they pray? Haha so they're no smarter the your average smart dog.

if Woofy does it and you do too, it's the same thing.

Bloody nora, how quaint.



I'll train my kids to grow up and think, ta very much

Originally posted by bogomil

Quote button pls.

hard to read thx