Another Ancient Site Norte Chico Civilization (Caral or Caral – Supe Civilization)

Usually the place I am going to talk about is lumped together with other places, but has not been given its own stand alone thread which I believe it deserves. I did use the search function and if it failed me I do apologize.

Many people know Sumer as the “Cradle of Civilization” and of the advancements that had been made there. What some may not know is what those particular advancements were.

Around about 6000 BC Cycladic people started using rudimentary clay for making different objects, brick was being used for a building material, and around 5000 BC metal tools started to replace stone tools. Around this same time jewelry making also appeared. Tools that once were simple and only for specific purposes, where now being decorated and personalized by their owners. Settlements were becoming organized, permanent and focusing on agriculture.

With this we had established what it takes for a civilization to come into being;
The wheel
Pottery Making
Metal Working
Agriculture

Archeologists have been excavating another site that has yielded specimens where at least one has been found to have been radiocarbon dated to 9210 BCE. This dig was not performed in Africa, Europe, or even Asia, it was found on the other side of the world, off the west coast of South America. The earliest date securely associated with the site is 3500 BCE; this was only about a thousand years after Sumer at a time when the pyramids of Egypt were just being built.

It was the work of Ruth Shady Solís and her team of archeologists that provided the documentation from the work at Caral. It seems that the radiocarbon work of Jonathan Haas found that 10 of 95 samples that were tested had dates that ranged prior to 3500 BCE the oldest from 9210 BCE. If this oldest one indeed was from the ancestors of the Caral, then they were most likely were not from the Sumer civilization, but this is purely speculation on my part, since the earliest date securely associated with the city is 3500 BCE.

What has become known as the Norte Chico Civilization (Caral or Caral – Supe Civilization), has given a inside look to show what causes a civilization to form. It was previously the four elements along with warfare is what brought people together to form a civilization. The site of Caral, I will be using this name here on out as this is the shortest of the names to use, has yielded no signs of warfare, no signs of metal working, no signs of pottery making, and no signs of the wheel being used.

The Archeologists had a hard time finding anything to date at one point till during the excavation of one of the pyramids they found fibers from woven bags. These woven bags were used to bring rocks to the site of the pyramid where they were used as back fill.

The element of civilization they found was signs of agriculture. Also interesting was that this Civilization was more inland than along the shoreline which was odd for an early civilization that was using stone tools. They have also found Shells and bones of fish, which was odd for an inland community of farmers. On the shores they found something else interesting fishermen of the same time where using nets made of cotton, which was grown in Caral, which leads the archeologists to believe that Caral was perhaps a center of trade where fisherman would trade what they caught for what the Farmers had grown.

The Archeologists kept making interesting finds; they found flutes made of seagull bones, and signs that they may have used drugs for recreation. They thus far have not found signs of human sacrifice, though they have found signs of a ritualistic burial, in the form of a child’s body being found in a basket under the floor of one of the houses. At first they thought that it was a human sacrifice, but without any marks on the bones or other signs of abuse, it is believed that the child died of natural causes.

From what the archeologists have been able to piece together there was a central government as well as a central religion. The pyramids and surrounding buildings were arranged in a planned city arrangement, and so far the archeologists have found no signs that show that they had any form of written language.

So this ancient site had no signs of warfare, no signs of pottery, no signs of metal working, no signs of the wheel, no signs of sacrifice, and no signs of a written language. There was a central government, religion, trade, music, agriculture, drug use, ritualistic burial. So what is really needed for there to be a civilization, this civilization seemed to be a peaceful, fun loving one, that was brought together based on combined efforts of farming and trade, not pushed together to protect themselves from would be attackers.

The civilization seemed to decline as the inhabitants spread further out in search of more fertile land and it wouldn’t be until the Chavin that the next great Peruvian culture arose.

We do not know where this culture came from, if they migrated down from North America after crossing the land bridge, or it is possible that during the time the sea levels were lower that there were islands between Africa and south America in the pacific ocean and the ancestors of this civilization island hopped to there destination. It is hard to be certain and most is definitely speculation since no sign of these islands between the continents have been found, and since this is the oldest datable site found thus far in the Americas, there are no signs showing them migrating from the north.

The out of Africa dates have been in recent times pushed back, my thought is that what if this group was a separate out of Africa group that traveled west island hopping to south America in the pacific ocean. If one group came to South America via this island hopping before the other group crossed the land bridge, it would mean that these two groups were separate groups that occupied America long ago and though of the same original group, where not of the same American group. Once again this is entirely speculation on my part and my goal is not to make wild speculations, but to spark the interest in this location of others.

The main reason for this thread is to bring Caral into more discussion, because I am hoping that enough discussion of the topic is aroused, that maybe the Archeologists responsible for its discovery will get back to a collaborative effort and help bring answers to so many questions.

I just wanted to say thank you to Slayer for bringing this subject up, and pointing me at other material for the thread, though this was not the only focus of your thread; it was the part of most interest to me for some reason.

Don't forget to check out the thread that got me on this path Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-2.

My Source material besides Slayers thread, the ones listed are the ones i pulled my info directly from, I visited others but as you can see with these while there is some new info, allot has been reused:

Basic info on Caral
Basic info and radio interview with archeologists
Basic info and some great photos
Basic wikipedia info
More basic info

Interesting post indeed in my country Ecuador we had a tribe in the cost line that appear according to records and its name is los Caras, There is a modern city based on that name.

The history says the Caras arrived by boat from the pacific ocean (no more details there) then settled on Manabi province then went up north to another province and started migrating to the andes mountains through the river, later that culture spread to become more tribes with different names which later were conquered by the incas.

I remember reading a material about Juan Morickz and his discovery on la cueva de los tallos where he thought of a connection between the ancient people of his country Hungary and indigenous tribes in Ecuador, some tribes were taling the same language Magyar, he then read a material about Lemuria and he believed that was the connection.

Things like this makes me research more and more, thanks a lot.


Edited to fix a sentence.

reply to post by AlienCarnage



nice thread and interesting possibilities.

the fact that there were so many peoples, fishing and farming and i guess more inland at that time, would mean people were there long before the city.


what i'm getting at is it takes more than a raft full of people to make a viable base for a civilization.

maybe a cruise liner full could do it and gilligans island would be up and running in no time.

i remember a thread that had the min amount of couples needed to start a "civilization" in australia?, with a varied gene pool but can't remember which one or details.

to develop the tech of cotton farming and trade as a business would take some time? unless they brought it with them. which would mean there are other places we haven't found to connect.

so timelines have to get pushed back to when the first peoples arrived.
would there be enough people to spread out in the area in 1000ys or 500 or even 200 to where they diversify to that degree?

s+f

reply to post by tierrafragil

Things like this makes me research more and more, thanks a lot.

It was Slayers thread that made me look into this a bit more. Then I did a search and saw that though there were discussions that included Caral in the discussion, there was not one that I found dedicated to Caral alone and thought it did deserve its own thread.

reply to post by fooks


If they came by island hopping, it is possible that it was not just one small group but several, if one group saw what another was doing, I am sure that they would have imitated and followed, and another would follow them, etc. Of course for this to be even considered a possibility, we would have to be able to find remnants of now submerged islands under the water in the Atlantic, and then if that was found, further investigation would have to be found indicating that they were at one point or another at least visited by peoples migrating to the west.

So for now we would have to assume that these people had originally come down from North America after crossing the land bridge. Without evidence of islands being in the Atlantic connecting Africa to South America, the land bridge migration would be the most reasonable.

I had originally in my opening post stated the Pacific Ocean between Africa and South America, I meant to say Atlantic, I can not go back and edit my original post or I would alter that. I was thinking of western South America, which is how I ended up mistakenly saying Pacific Ocean

Where there do appear on radar maps lighter colored spots which could have been islands or even a land bridge connecting Africa to South America I do not know of any evidence that supports this. If it was either islands or a land bridge, then artifacts would also need to be found to prove migration through this area.

reply to post by AlienCarnage


S & F

I have been fascinated with Caral ever since I first read about it in a newspaper article.

What really amazes me is that they had no form of writing. Writing allows the transfer of information so how did they make the calculations to build such structures with no writing? Yet they built pyramids and Temples.

Add to that they basically do not have a pre-culture/development stage. Just sort of showed up and built pyramids and temples. Some stories say they came from the sea.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I was amazed at what is basically the city plan, with no writing, done verbally, it is astonishing to say the least.The buildings are amazing as well for a people with no writing.

My theory has them coming initially from the east to the west via Islands or perhaps even a land bridge between Africa and South America across the Atlantic, there are lightly colored areas of the ocean on satellite images that could have been above the water at the time of the last ice age when the water level was much lower, and could have been theses islands or even the land bridge they may have used. If they would have come from the west they would have had to travel the pacific, which means that it is possible that they came from Africa by way of Australia and maybe some other islands that were above the water line at the time.

So if they came from the sea, was it the Pacific, which is the closest to where Caral was, or did they arrive from the Atlantic and cross land to where they ended up?

Many questions, I keep searching for the answers but seem to come up with more questions than answers.

Yes, Caral is a very interesting key site, something of the Göbleki Tepe of the Americas.

Here's a BBC documentary on it :

Google Video Link

I believe there's one made by Discovery Channel as well, I'm trying to find it as I type...

Although they had no written language as such, they did have an ancient record keeping system.
The "quipa" which consisted of a long central cord with varied colored cords strung along it.
Much the same as the quipas in use by the Incas when they were contacted by Spanish explorers.



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