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Fundamentalist/Conservative Christianity isn't really Christianity at all, just a tool of the PBT

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posted on Sep, 22 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Re Dontreally

with due respect. If 'christianity' is rooted in gnosticism, it must be invisible roots. From the beginning of the Jesus movement, some of his disciples were at odds with some of the gnostics (gnosticism not being a completely homogenous system).

Paulus, when he hijacked the Jesus movement, wasn't exactly fond of gnostics either, and increasing tension between paulinism and gnosticism eventually culminated in the albigensian crusade, where most gnostic were exterminated.

So the question is, which christians are rooted in which gnosticism? Antinomianism isn't a very good indication, as it can mean different things in different contexts.

The all-male pauline trinity is most likely a construct. All the existing Eurasian trinities before paulinism included a female part, which the paulines changed to male somewhat after they re-introduced a trinity.

Not trying to cut you down. I really am interested.

PS This direction is a bit off-topic, so I will not pursue it to much.


Im familiar with the history of Gnosticism. It goes much further back than the historical gnostic movement of basilides etc, prior to the hermetic sermons and still further than the late neo platonism - these 3 being all essentially akin. Gnosticism is paganism, rooted in the theological attitudes of the ancient Greek, Bebylonian, Egyptian and Indian philosophies.

Im not only criticizing christianituy, but attacking its entire foundation. Christianity began as an invention of the roman empire to deal with the historic "jewish problem" the pagans have had with the people of Israel. If you analyze the archetypal themes in the new testament it doesnt call for any specific behavior, but leaves it so much in the open - the absract.. waiting to be interpreted by the initiate. This is the crux of the taditionalist school - an ambivalence, a void, an open end - everyone living according to their own laws because reality is inherently sucjective - morally relevant, nihilistic. New Testament is very very closely related with popular greek theologies of Hesiod, Homer, Orpheus, and you can specifically sense the presence of Egyptian and Hermetic influences popular at that time in Egypt and the levant. If youre familiar with the archetypal pagan mentality as im familar with it, than you would have to start asking some major questions. Rabbinic writings talk heavily, especially ancient midrashes in an allegorical manenr of the nature of the enemy of Judaism - called Amalek. Amaleks "philosophy' which is also the philosophy of the builders of babel and the persuasion of the snake in genesis, is to convince man that to follow G-d and be like G-d, G-ds command "do not eat from the tree of good and evil" revealed so goes the 'logic' of the snake, a dialectical point. G-d emphasizing Good and evil in the statement "do not eat of the tree of good and evil") indicated a duality. Thats what the snake told eve. You have a CHOICE. He mentioned a duality, and he commanded you NOT to eat of it. Implying than (or suggesting in the mind of adam - snake being a symbol for the spiritual function which feigns as truth by presenting its own logic, but is in truth confused and counter intuitive - what it assumes and than establishes is often morally wrong - thus allowing man to follow his own sense of right and wrong rather than his conscience, which is G-ds knowledge, present within his being) that G-ds true intention was for man to disobey his command and therefore be like G-d by exercizing his OWN independence. This is what gnosticism is based on; this one tidbit from the Torah describes the beginnings of a spiritual philosophy among mankind, of whom the popular pagan nations trace themelves back to. Eve ate of it, as did adam and because of this tragic mistake mans reasoning faculties became severely impaired. G-d created the satan to tempt man; to devise any machinations possible to test mans intellectual faculties and devotion to G-d. But, satan having one job (as all angels do), which is too tempt, can sometimes be done with to much fervor - which in this case is what happened. He fell by actually causing man to sin and continuing it to worsen for the SAKE of G-d (strange logic eh? He was so desirous to be close to G-d that he overperformed his angelic duty) With this fall from G-ds grace mankind became more disposed to the will and desires of the physical body. Instead of uniting the physical with the spiritual, as adam and eve were created to do, mankind entered a field of a constant battle, for 120 years to fight off the will of his lower side. But, a certain group, Cain and his descendents, symbolized a different mentality.. Gnosticism. They believed the fall deliberate by G-d and they believed that G-d had wanted Adam and Eve to sin..Therefore, gnostics deify the evil principle, the power of dissent and chaos. They believe all reality is essentially null and void so therefore, man is to remain morally and consciously indifferent of the viccissitudes of lower existence - of his external relationships. Therefore the outer world was false and the inner world was true. Its about glorifying the SELF- where Satan is imagined as Hermes, who acts as a messenger between the Gods and man. Man rises above the "illusion" of the outer world and embraces the reality of his inner world. What HE deems right, according to his own personal and NATURAL (hence mary worship in todays churchs - becoming especially relevant with all the supposes apparitions of mary - probably staged events to symbolize the advent of the feminien function - as was the moon landing and woodstock happening on the same week) incliation is whats his natural law. His G-d is himself. This is Krishna in Hinduism, Boddhisatva in Buddhism, Christ in Christianity, Al Khadir in Islam, Hermes, Dionyous, Bacchus, Apollo, Philemon, Nebo, Tammuz, Horus, Thor, King Arthur, the philosophers stone, the fountain o youth, different names for the same symbolic reality called by mystics the 'self' the transcendent function whch embraces both poles in himself.

So because all of this is true, i naturally wonder what is orthodox christianity aside from a mechanism to control the ignorant masses. Islam carried themselves in the same manner. To those who didnt accept their religion, doom and damnation was destined for them, whetehr it comes in the next life in the form of hell or in this world at the hand of christs or mohommads elect. Judaism is completely unique in this respect. it explcity says in the Talmu Bavli (a cornerstone of rabbinic judaism/law) that the RIGHTEOUS of all the nations have a place in olam haba (heaven). Its a tenet of Orthodox Judaism. All people, as long as they follow the 7 universal laws fo noach deliniated in the Talmud, have a place in heaven. Makes no different what specific religion you embrace. If your sincere and love G-d, and perform good deeds, you have a heaven awaiting you.

People dont seem to realize how dramatically rational this is compared to Islam and Christianity. I think based on this fact alone, Judaism elevates itself morally above both of them.

Its mainly my understanding of Judaism and Kabbalah that i have realized what i do. I know its notp opular among christians and it probably irritates them. I know its offensive but i have no choice but to follow my gut. Christianity claim to be the fullfilment of Judaism, and yet christianity shares more in common with gnostic and pagan spirituality than with Judaism. historically, Judaism has stood out as the only real objectively moral spiritual system. In other lands, sure, they had a code of ethics but their code was as todays secular codes were. Its a social mechanism to maintain law and order as opposed to an immutable law imposed on mankind from the creator. In a Jewish society, as it was in the kingdom of Israel, all the people were instructed in the inenr wisdom. Not so in the pagan world.. the people were stupified and offered a dramatically different version of the mysteries that their leaders understood. It was a controlled paradigm...as it was than, so it is now. Christianity inheriting the social structure of pagandom, and in fact, the vatican proudly displays a 4500 year old Egyptian obelisk erected at heliopolis in the egyptian 5th dynasty. It was eventually brought to alexandria and then rested in neros colliseum which overlook hundreds of gladitorial battles.

Also, follow catholicism. Pius XII who declared the assumption of mary notably had a gnostic philosophy. He personally didnt intervene in the holocaust because of a policy of neutrality, peace and negotation between opposing powers. His 'taking it easy' enabled the germans to do all they did. In his personal theology, he thought the pope to be god on earth, as pharoah was to the egyptians; he being christs vicar on earth and therefore as good as being christ himself. This philosophy of the ancients is morally repugnant. A few people here have this attitude, like neo christian mystic




posted on Sep, 22 2010 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


Nice OP JR...

My take from it is..."major on the majors, and minor on the minors" Good job!

Remember Christians are the BODY of Christ...a body has a whole lot of different parts, so thinking and doing alike would make a cripple...the church needs diversity to be the church...great minds DON"T think alike...iron sharpens iron as one (poster) sharpens another...

OT



posted on Sep, 23 2010 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by Robert Boone
 


I always wondered if "Allah" was actually just a different name for the god we look up to.

Islam, Christianity and Judiasm did all come from the house of Abraham after all.



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 01:10 AM
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I have to say that I'm surprised... No, make that SHOCKED that the fundies have not decended upon this thread like a Biblical plague... Perhaps they cannot argue with the logic that I presented in the OP....



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 04:23 AM
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Hi Jaxon,

when have fundies ever cared about logic?

But I have noticed a general absense of them lately. Maybe they are reconsidering their strategy against sarcasm, and are now desperately searching for bible-verses on the sanctity of humour or not.

A few good jokes about sinners etc would enliven the place.

Or maybe a holy master-demagogue is on the way to crush us sons of darkness, and this is just the silence before the storm.



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 07:11 PM
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The situations you are talking about really have little to do with Christianity. Homophobia and Islamaphobia are more of a left/right issue. Most people wouldn't even talk about this stuff if mainsteam media and our politicians wouldn't keep making it the issue. TPTB have no interest of your sexual preferance or religion as long as the herd is fighting amongst themselves.

Judging from your previous posts, You just like dragging Christianity into it because you're having trouble reconciling your lifestyle with your faith.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

And how can you Love God and continue an action that he defines as a sin against him. You can't have two masters.

romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 10:39 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


Or maybe they've been *gasp* raptured finally!!! Hey, it could happen... OK, just kidding....



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by Bilw85
Judging from your previous posts, You just like dragging Christianity into it because you're having trouble reconciling your lifestyle with your faith.


Whoa there, preacher man! I have absolutely NO trouble reconciling my lifestyle with MY faith... I'm not a Cosmic Jewish Zombie worshiper! I just happen to find that about 90% of those who call themselves Christians are just giant hypocrites. You seem to be amongst that percentage.

The anti-gay rights movement is most DEFINITELY religious in origin, as is the anti-mosque movement. If you don't think so, you are either delusional or uninformed... Of course there is the third possiblility, that you are intentionally trying to deflect the resposibility from your own...



posted on Sep, 25 2010 @ 02:56 AM
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How is it that churchers scream anti gay, but ignore that pre marital sex also calls for stoning. Their kids are out banging each other, and if you don't think that's true, you haven't talked to them. Pull the log from your own eye people. If you tell me that the law has passed away, then the law against homosexuality is gone. If the law is still there, then you must abide by it.
Your own Jesus said
Whoever keeps the law and teaches others to do so will be great in the kingdom of God.
He also said the law will not pass away until heaven and Earth do.
Earth's still here. So is the law.
If so, then follow what your master said.
Why do you call me Lord, but do not keep my commandments.
But hey, the first sign Jesus said of the end days would be that teachers would come in HIS name (claiming to be followers) and there teachings would lead the many astray.
I guess the end of days is here.



posted on Sep, 25 2010 @ 03:16 AM
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Most real Christians don't involve themselves in worldly affairs. From personal experience, I held certain beliefs, but it was not up to me to right them. It was up to God. That's the way I understood it. It wasn't my place to remove the speck from my neighbor's eye. We have a saying here in the North Country, clean up your own backyard before you try to clean up somebody else's. Most fundamentalist Christians don't have respect for other people because God is not a respecter of persons. It's sad. I've always done unto others as I would like to be treated. I think that's what Jehoshua Messiah said to do.



posted on Sep, 26 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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Homosexuallity is a choice one makes.Okay, before you get all up in my face, hear me out.A man can love a man.A woman can love a woman. However, when a woman or man decides to to take it to the next level ( physical intimacy) With the same sex, They have just crossed the line and decided against natural law.( their choice). Is it a good or bad choice, Personally I believe its the wrong choice. ( not good or bad) Just my three cents!!
Ill still love you if your Gay though!
wanted to edit again But I cant...


edit on 26-9-2010 by oliveoil because: (no reason given)




edit on 26-9-2010 by oliveoil because: # 386.Jax homosexual 28976..lol



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 04:03 AM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I have to say that I'm surprised... No, make that SHOCKED that the fundies have not decended upon this thread like a Biblical plague... Perhaps they cannot argue with the logic that I presented in the OP....


Looking back of the threads it would appear that the hard assed fundies have steadily been lessening their engagement in discussions like this.

Let's be honest the xtian/god delsusion has been done over and over in many different ways here on ATS and the christians lose every time especially when they come up against well presented intelligent threads like this.

It would appear that they may well be giving up the ghost JR the word ( no pun intended) could be out that christians need to be very very smart before they even consider trying to "save" ATS members.

The downside to all this christian "running away" from critical debate is that they are less likely to learn anything and perhaps become more fundamental ( AKA throwing toys in dirt) which doesn't do anybody on this planet any good at all.

Needless to say, everyone should be concerned when christians slowly disengage in the debate but after a while turn up in a position of influence such as a Moderator.

To be honest I would like to see more muslims join ATS and present their case for open discussion it would be a breath of fresh air to debate the Allah delusion.

Excellent thread dude S&F , I particularly like the West Wing vid, I've never seen the show before is the series any good or just that particular episode ?



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 04:12 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 





They have just crossed the line and decided against natural law.(


Natural law ???

What the hell are you talking about ? Where in nature id there written a law and which part of nature authored it ?

For you information, quite a few of natures little cuddly things do a spot of pillow munching, consider the Bonobo this little dude will hump almost anything with a pulse. Now, considering the Bonobo in its' own "natural" state and environment enjoys to indulge in some ted Hargarding and humans evolved from apes, how can anyone possibly say something is "not natural" ??


You may not like it if I pick my nose by the table but picking my nose is perfectly natural "TO ME".



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by alonzo730
 





Most real Christians don't involve themselves in worldly affairs.


Well well, yet another "real"; chrisitian, can you please define what exactly a "real" christian is and how it is unlike a "not real" christian. Where would we find the job description for the "Real christian " ?

I've yet to hear from one single "not real" christian here on ATS but I'm led to believe by those that claim to be "real christians" that there quite a number of them so where are they ? Why are they so quiet ?.



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by inforeal
 

And earlier in the same book: "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." (2:62)



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 06:54 AM
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Hi Djin,

you made some good observations in your recent post about the general fundie situation. Personally I don't think there's any reason to worry, except in the case of fundies getting so frustrated from their missionary failures, that they start speculating in the big kaboom out of spite.

But taking over a forum isn't going to work. I was a very active participant on a relatively big and influential forum some time earlier. Liberal, Jung, verses about feeling pain in the rain (and other places) etc, but there was a couple of soul-savers, who had some influence on the forum. And as their agenda became more obvious (topics had to be approved beforehand, debate was to be sugar-coated and resistance to the preacher-boys was 'intolerant') the more competent writers disappeared and with them all the passive readers, who just came for the fireworks.

After some months of this, the forum was half dead.

I'm quite sure (rather know for a fact), that TPTB and their lackeys would love to get their sticky hands on forums, but it simply won't function. It's impossible to keep up an interesting forum, if it's run by zombis.



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by RRokkyy
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 

Christianity isnt Christianity.

Christianity as Christianity is Paganism; Mere rituals and beliefs. Fundamentalists are Pagans.

Christianity is Judaism Fulfilled as Christ was a Jewish Teacher.

A True Christian practices the Sacrifice of the Heart as Love, and does not believe in anything.


As a Pagan, a Wiccan, I take offense at that friend! Christianity is NOT Paganism in any way whatsoever, if it is, then why do Christians always say us Pagans need to burn at the stake? And by the way,. I have gay friends and customers, any Christian worth his salt would have nothing to do with such an abomination before their lord and master, is that not right? Martin Sheen has always been a sort of hero to me, I remember in the Viet Nam days when he chained himself to the gates of a National Guard Armory in protest to the war. He makes some very valid points, and shows clearly that Christians do not read and study their Bible, for if they ever did, and saw what a cruel God that was, they would run as fast as possible away from religion.

So please, I know you Christians hate Pagans, that is clear, and is alright. Just stop saying Christians are Pagans, they most certainly are not. Get your facts straight before posting.



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 





Personally I don't think there's any reason to worry, except in the case of fundies getting so frustrated from their missionary failures, that they start speculating in the big kaboom out of spite.


I am hearing you but remain cautious and suspect when it comes to christians generally we have to bear in mind that they have an agenda, albeit rather confused and wishy washy the general aim is to try and make the rest of us share their delusion.

I would agree that ultimately should fundies take control of a forum then it will ultimately end up as a proselytizing area for the preaching to the converted. Nevertheless we only have to look around us to see that does not matter to them as they will try to do it anyway in order to give the appearance of slapping the opposition.

I find it unreasonable to allow a christian to moderate a thread when he/she has such an extreme bias toward the topic,



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Re Autowrench

Being a european I live in a historical environment, where the 'christian' (and espcially pauline) hoax has a quite colourful (mostly blood-red) past.

The 'christian' tactics have usually been: Infiltrate, annex and then declare opposition as 'heretic'. Suddenly individuals with a legitimate and autonomous religion, have become 'heretics' inside this new hybridized religion, which was once their own.

It seems, that there's nothing 'christians soldiers' won't stoop to (something they share with all violent extremists).

As 'holiness' ofcourse only is an excuse for 'christian' powergrabbing, these hybrid-religions aren't considered worth the trouble to re-engineer, as long as they pay and grovel.

In its own evil and perverted way, the 'christian' hoax is quite elaborate, and individuals with inner existential vacuums may be tempted, because they can't see beyond the sugar-coating. Socalled pagans had problems understanding this Machievellan backstabbing, and often saw it coming to late.




edit on 27-9-2010 by bogomil because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2010 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I have to say that I'm surprised... No, make that SHOCKED that the fundies have not decended upon this thread like a Biblical plague... Perhaps they cannot argue with the logic that I presented in the OP....


Or, perhaps we've read proverbs 26:4 a few times??

Solomon was a wise ol' chap.



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