Obama: "Mexicans" Were Here "Long Before America Was Even An Idea"

reply to post by JakiusFogg


Everything I stated was in fact, quite true. You sir, live in a fantasy world.

I have been across the border many times, mucho gusto Latin-American culutura, y viajo alla mucho, y otra pais.

And my knowledge of history is far better than yours, as well. Have you never heard of the Zapatistas and their fairly recent revolt against Mexico?

flag.blackened.net...

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Most Mexicans are not Native Americans, they are the descendants of Spaniards, they look Spanish, and of course they talk Spanish. It isn't hard to spot those that are of mixed ancestry.

Us U.S. Americans are liked and welcome to Mexico, and even more popular in other South American nations. Of course they like us for our money, but even more they like us for our character, our willingness to stand up to authority, and lack of pretentiousness.

It is the government that is hostile to the idea of us living there. If too many Americans were to start living in Mexico, we might get involved in politics, and wrestle control away from the family oligarchies that currently control Mexico. Look what we have managed to do in Costa Rico.

Sad, you can't even see your own biases.

reply to post by JakiusFogg

That Mexicans (the Mexhtli) where there on the land of what is now the western states of the USA BEFORE it was even an idea

You really should read some history before you start spouting such ignorance.

WRONG, the Mexhtli were never in what is now the Western States of the U.S.. Maybe the Aztecs had sent an expedition or two up into these areas, but they were a very long way from the Aztec Empire, and never controlled by the Aztecs.

The Spaniards who conquered the Aztecs and all the territory now known as Mexico laid claim to territories that are now a part of the Western U.S., but they never controlled those territories. When people from the U.S. moved into these areas, the Spaniards who controlled Mexico tried to tell them what to do, but did not have the ability to back up their claims.

I don't know where you learned history, but you should get a refund.

as you guys were just sitting down eating corn, and fearing gods wrath, long after the Mexicans had built some of the greatest structures in the world.

Structures built for human sacrifice to the gods. Who was god fearing?

reply to post by poet1b


So let me get this straight: "mucho gusto Latin-American culutura, y viajo alla mucho, y otra pais"

"Nice to meet you Latin American Culture, and i travel there allot, and another country"

Sir, your Spanish is as bad as your reasoning.

To state carte blanche that the Mexican people have nothing but disdain and scorn for their Aztec (and other) culture, and uphold them selves as Spanish descendants first and foremost. Yet only within the last week, and still on going they celebrate their independence from Spain. To this i can say with the utmost confidence that this is incorrect 100%.

as stated previously the bias that exists is a socio-economic one and not cultural.

In case you missed it on the thread I will recap. I live in Mexico, and I have a Mexican family. Should you ask them, or our extended family, or the friends we know, if they consider themselves to be Spanish. you will be met with a resounding NO! We are Mexican. I know this, as it is a fun way of winding my wife up!

As for the rest of statement about the humble gracious, and benevolent attitudes displayed by Americans towards Mexican people, and their love for your people.

From the evidence of my own eyes, and experience. From talking with actual people who are born and raised here. and live a normal life, and not withing the hospitality sector, I can only assume that you are deluded or trolling.

If the former, then you need to open your eyes. And yet you accuse me of bias.

To state your case offering language as evidence, then I am please to see that the inhabitants of the USA are proud to call themselves British first and foremost.

Tengo sospechos que la genta que encontraste solo son trabajadores, y representates del servicios de huespedes en los hoteles. Si verdadmate quieres ver el real Mexico, entonces la proxima tiempo llegas en nuestro pais, por que no sales afuera de la habitacion y abre los ochos.

If you enjoy and like the country so much, them why the constant diatribes early talking the place down?

reply to post by poet1b

"The Spaniards who conquered the Aztecs and all the territory now known as Mexico laid claim to territories that are now a part of the Western U.S., but they never controlled those territories. When people from the U.S. moved into these areas, the Spaniards who controlled Mexico tried to tell them what to do, but did not have the ability to back up their claims"

Spaniards!?? what Spaniards? The land to the west of the united states was taken over by the Mexican government after the recognition of independence. The annexation of Texas which precluded the American Mexican war was was a good 20 years after the Spanish were booted out.The rest of the land that was surrendered, by after the cessation of hostilities, and by the ratification of the treaty of Hidalgo, which basically drew a straight line from the Rio Grande to San Diego, in return for payment. more land to be bought out later,.

All of this is both academic and a little pointless. because regardless of that fact, the Mexicans do, and will remain annoyed and upset about this fact.

My point is, one of the factors accompanying this, and as demonstrated abundantly throughout this thread, is the attitude by US citizens towards Mexicans, where here or there, that casts them as a lower form of life, and a second class people, not worthy of respect or credit in anything that they have done, but more over to be treated like vermin.

By the way, "They look Spanish" have you ever been to Spain!??

Granted there are some that have a Iberian / Mediterranean look about them, but they for a country as a whole a minority. What you will generally find especially in Central and Sount American countries, that those that look more european will generally have German or Italian descendants, primarily post WW1 / 2

The rest are meztizo, or of mixed, and in the main have more of an indigenous look about them, rather than European. These my freind are far in the Majority.

Also just to add. I just asked a Costa Rican friend about you statements. His reply? "No seas pendejo". his words not mine.

reply to post by livefreeordieinnh


Ideologically I agree. Anyone should be able to go anywhere, and find opportunity. As it currently stands, the U.S., and these days, Europe perhaps, are the only places this is somewhat true. The rest of the world is controlled by people who refuse to play fair, and the only answer would be to fight them until they no longer have the ability to ruthlessly rule over others. However, the same people who insist that the U.S. accept all the refugees on the planet consider it to be racist for the U.S. to support the overthrow of third world dictators, no matter how brutally they oppress the people of their country. It is pure madness.

Realistically, the U.S. needs to protect its borders, and restrict immigration to reasonable levels, or we will lose our ability to find opportunity, and our liberty as well. Everyone on the planet can not live in the U.S..

Long Before America Was Even An Idea

Political tools come in all forms and are applied to create misperceptions that, in turn, are meant to cement certain concepts in the public's mind. One of these happens to deal with how certain peoples were here on the North American continent before the Europeans, and that this somehow gives them squatter's rights to any piece of dirt of their choosing.

The best science we currently have is pretty clear; there are no truly native species of human beings to North America. Period.

Now, whether that is indeed true, is left for the scholars to decide. But all things now being equal, there are no legitimate claims to natural ownership that withstand even a passing scrutiny. So called 'Native Americans' are no more native than descendants of those relocated Europeans.

The same thing can now be applied to the Mexicans, as well.

Of course, this has nothing to do with land deeds and such. This is (again) about politics and the desire to corral a certain segment of the population for the purpose of securing their potential votes. And in lock-step with this hard truth, there is no more a genuine concern for the rights of Native Americans and Latinos... than those of European decent.

War may be the scourge of mankind but politics, in all its many variations, is its lowest form of collective expression; a manifest bilge of greed and deception.

Have a nice day

reply to post by xiphias


Well said, unfortunately people wont come out and say what they mean because they don't know the winning side yet, they would rather skirt around it using all and anything to blame for their own pitfalls.

Shame really, but hey at least we can see them coming from miles away.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


And yet yo understood my Spanish, as your last line indicates. You really are making a fool of yourself.

So you live in Mexico, you are still a history revisionist who obviously hates the U.S., as your posts continually demonstrates. You don't know what Native Americans look like, and apparently Spanish people as well.

Didn't bother to look up Zapatista did you. Or you just don't like the truth.

You blather on and on trying to put words in my mouth, to cling to your hatred for the U.S.. I speak to real Mexicans on a daily basis, next door, and across the street, and all over the place here in California. It is my experience that Mexicans and people from Latin American will often have an attitude towards Americans, which is how they refer to people from the U.S., but they will still like us better than people from other countries, including other Latin American countries. Most people from Latin American countries don't particularly care for Mexicans, and they like people from the U.S. more than Mexicans, or the Brits.

I like Latin culture, but I am not going to put up with Mexico's false claim to Western states, from people who came to the U.S. to find the opportunity that they could not find in Mexico. I know very, very few Mexicans willing to go back to Mexico.

Obama's whole pitch to the Mexican community is to offer an amnesty plan. If most illegals want to go back to Mexico, then why would they care about amnesty.

To state your case offering language as evidence, then I am please to see that the inhabitants of the USA are proud to call themselves British first and foremost.

As opposed to the silly claim that we are all descendants of Native Americans as Many people from Latin America try to thinly pretend. Push them on the issue and you will find their true opinion. You will find most Americans from the U.S. are proud of their ancestry, their true ancestry.

reply to post by JakiusFogg

The land to the west of the united states was taken over by the Mexican government after the recognition of independence.

You keep repeating this nonsense as if that will make it true. The land west of the United States was claimed by Mexico, but they never controlled it, and they never had the ability to hold it. The people who occupied these territories choose to become a part of the U.S.. Even those of Spanish descent.

Mexico's failed wars of aggression to try and hand on to these territories give them no justice for further claims, and the Mexicans who are annoyed abut this are annoying a lot of Americans.

is the attitude by US citizens towards Mexicans, where here or there, that casts them as a lower form of life, and a second class people, not worthy of respect or credit in anything that they have done, but more over to be treated like vermin.

The fact is that the situation is the reverse. Actually, it is the attitude of people like you who cast Americans in this light.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


As far as the success of Costa Rico goes, they have a much better standard of living than Mexico, so your friend maybe has other problems.

www.prweb.com...

OK Here we go.

Zapatista. Revoltionary group fomed in 1910 by their leader Emiliano Zapata. But I gather you are trying to refer to the armed insurgent group from Chiapas which was formed in 1994, and wants automony for the state of Chiapas from the Federal Government.

So your point is what exactly? maybe we should just through in the FARC for good measure? every country, developed or undeveloped has it's problems with separatist movements.

Again your are deliverately ingore the point I mades about class distinction here in Mexico to be that of a socio-economic symptom, rather than as you suggest. The proud Spanish Oligarchy having nothing bust disdain for the "indigenous Mexicans".

If what you are saying would be correct, Then most people in Mexico look Spanish, Are proud to be Spanish and as before still oppress the native people, with whom there is little mixing.

I would ask you what you have been smoking. As the reality is it could not be further from the truth. Despite what you care to believe. You are misguided in your assumptions.

State of fact. Mexicans do not consider themselves to be Spanish. I really don't know who you have been talking to. But if that is what they told you, maybe they were just trying to tell you about his personal family history. As for the vast majority. the reverse is true.

Yes I have been to Spain many times and am well aware of how the Spanish appear, and as stated I now live here. and although there are similarities between the two. there are massive differences between them as the two people appear generally. Simply stating that I obviously don;t know what Spaniards, Mexicans, "Native Americans: look like is just a stupidity.

I take it by Native Americans you are including the likes of the Aztec, Maya, Olmecs into this?? and not just the tribes found in the US.


On to the history point. You will see in an earlier post that I agree that the government of Mexico was not able to enforce dominion over the western states, that were part of of it's inherited territory. You will find that only Texas invited annexation. But strangely that they have been trying to leave ever since. So you say that Mexico had no claim over the land? well I ask you did. What was the claim on this land by the US? Mexico's War of aggression. Most would see it as trying to retain that which is in there sphere of influence? or should Texas or Chiapas, now be allowed autonomy, just because that is what they want. It might be a nice idea. But it is not reality. but I guess you just hold on to the manifest destiny doctrine. But the fact remains that the recognized boder of Mexico at that time, included the states. And no amount of rhetoric will change that fact. And by stating that there is no claim nor was any claim, just because at the tome could not enforce their border as you suggest. Is akin to someone house being robbed, just because they were not home. OK so lets take that reasoning, The US cannot currently enforce it's border. Therefore has no claim on the Territory and therefore is part of mexico.

Isn't semantics fun!

As for the rest of it. I can assure you everything I have stated regarding the attitude of Americans towards Mexicans and their actions within Mexico is true and has been witnessed personally by me, and in fact has been demonstrated, as previously stated, abundantly throughout this thread. The attitude of feeling by Mexicans towards the US has been testified to me by people born and living here in Mexico, on numerous occasions. And again nothing you can say can change that fact.

It really is as simple as that.

if indeed you are as you say, ans you like Mexico and it's people. and act respectfully towards it and it's people. I am sure you will not have any issues. However, the sweeping generalizations that you have stated about them, in what it quite obviously a jingoistic diatribe, basing it simply on perceived truth that when held up to reality. do not hold true.

As for your Spanish, I understood it as I translated it literally, as as I natural English speaker, with Spanish as a second laguage I am able to decipher what you were saying by the construct of the words used. and recognize the mistakes. However if you were to say "Mucho Gusto Cultura Latin America" they would at best greet you back, but then ask why you called him Latin American Culture! Mostly you would just get a QUE!???

In closing, you obviously have your beliefs of what Mexico is and who Mexicans are. although it is far from reality, maybe that is just the way things are up there is California, So that's fine. I will continue to live here in the reality of what is real Mexico, and we look forward to welcoming you back on your next Mexican Holiday Adventure. Please don't forget to tip generously, and be courteous to your hostess. Drinks 2 for 1 by the pool bar between 8-10.

Just a tip though. Whatever you pay here, know that you are paying 50% extra for the privilege of being a Gringo..... You can afford it.

reply to post by poet1b


As for my Friend from Costa Rica, I asked him if he considered himself to be Spanish.... well you saw his reply.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Aggie Man

 

and the illegals still thinks themselves uniquely mexican now that they are living here in america never bothering to follow its laws its rule or its customs or culture or language

American culture? Eh?


*snip* who now go on about how Irish they are or the Italian Americans who still continue their very Italian culture? I have a feeling this doesn't bother you quite as much.

Originally posted by poet1b
but even more they like us for our character, our willingness to stand up to authority, and lack of pretentiousness.

Arf!





Mod Edit: Civility And Decorum Are Required on AboveTopSecret.com. Please review This Link.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


The point about the Zapatistas is that they were treated by the ruling families of Mexico the same way they have always been treated when demanding their fair rights. Your interpretation of history is still nothing but a fantasy.

No, Mexicans don't consider themselves Spanish first, and I never claimed this. Like Irish Americans, or Italian Americans they consider themselves American first, and whatever heritage second. Most Mexicans consider themselves Mexican first, and Spanish second, unless of course they have some association with a Native culture, which is less likely.

Mexico's War of aggression was encouraged by the British, who, after their humiliating loss in New Orleans, were not ever about to attack the U.S. again. The Mexicans thought they could defeat the U.S., and in fact had ambitions of annexing New Orleans. Then they were defeated in one of the most lopsided wars in the history of war. Then everyone forgot about Mexico's aggression and ambition.

You are not aware of how anyone appears, you are too blinded by your ideology.

Um, all the territories desired to join the U.S.. After the Mexican American war, many Mexicans wanted to join the U.S.. Do you know that originally Mexico wanted to model its constitution after the U.S., but the ruling oligarchies stopped that.

The U. S. is more than capable of protecting its border, but should we loose the capability, no doubt Mexico would be happy to take advantage, as they are currently taking advantage of U.S. sympathy for the poverty in their nation. The problem is that they have taken too much advantage, and now the people of the U.S. are starting to take action.

My experience is just the opposite of yours, and I live in the U.S. where there is far more interaction between Mexicans and U.S. citizens, and I have been to Mexico enough to see how things are, and have had many frank conversation with Mexicans in Mexico.

Here is the kicker, you claim that Americans all treat Mexicans badly, and that the fault is all on the American, where I have never claimed Mexicans are all, or mostly, jerks as you have claimed about Americans. All I have done is point out your historical inaccuracies and bigotry.

Your bias is clear in your portrayal of Americans, of history, and so the ethnic make up of Mexico. No doubt you will continue to cling to it.

Most Mexicans and South Americans interpret "gusto" as I like, and know exactly what I am talking about. Also, my statement was about Latin American culture, which includes all the countries south of Mexico as well. Colombia is much more fun.

C'mon people. This isnt about RACE. Its about fear mongering and power. America is a Land built by immigrants for immigrants. This the land of the free and home of the brave. Not land of the racist home of the scared. Stop being so ignorant.

Originally posted by StrangeTimez
C'mon people. This isnt about RACE. Its about fear mongering and power. America is a Land built by immigrants for immigrants. This the land of the free and home of the brave. Not land of the racist home of the scared. Stop being so ignorant.

That is what they want you to believe that it is all about race. It is a way to divide us all from each other.

reply to post by StrangeTimez


With the democrats, it is all about race. Special privileges, affirmative action, free medical care for immigrants because they might be illegally in the country, while poor people, and working people people between jobs have to pay.

Far too much of the democratic platform is based entirely on appealing to minorities, and our schools have bent over backwards to teach a biased version of history that paints some in pastel, while exaggerating anything that other groups may have done.

Don't give credit to people for things they did not do.

Stop the racial pandering.

OK day 3, here we go!

The point about the Zapatistas is that they were treated by the ruling families of Mexico the same way they have always been treated when demanding their fair rights. Your interpretation of history is still nothing but a fantasy.

I don't believe i made any interpretation on the history of the Zapatistas, or their social struggle other than to say who they were. And you'll find that "ruling families" in any country have a habit of crapping on whoever they want, whenever they want. Sooo, so what.

No, Mexicans don't consider themselves Spanish first, and I never claimed this. Like Irish Americans, or Italian Americans they consider themselves American first, and whatever heritage second. Most Mexicans consider themselves Mexican first, and Spanish second, unless of course they have some association with a Native culture, which is less likely.

A direct quote from your earlier post

Wrong, at least not any of the Mexicans I have known. They have nothing but contempt for Aztecs, and look down upon them as inferior people. They will push the Native American angle when it serves them, but consider themselves to be Spanish first.

In fact, regardless of what you have heard, that normal every day Mexicans consider the Mexican heritage to be that of the "indigenous" people and not the heritage of the Spanish, although on the genetic level they will have Indo-European gene as the majority of the population is Mestizo. I have yet to meet one single Mexicans that puts the Spanish part first. I really don;t know how to make this any clearer to you. But I am sure you will just brush it off an accuse my of bigotry once more. But I am past caring.

Mexico's War of aggression was encouraged by the British, who, after their humiliating loss in New Orleans, were not ever about to attack the U.S. again.

Nothing but jingoism - The British and French actually tried to dissuade Mexico from declaring war after the Annexation of Texas

The Mexicans thought they could defeat the U.S., and in fact had ambitions of annexing New Orleans. Then they were defeated in one of the most lopsided wars in the history of war. Then everyone forgot about Mexico's aggression and ambition.

I am sure they Mexico did have ambition, Lopsided war in the history of war... yeah OK. Mexico's aggression, Then I am glad everyone remember just how peaceful and diplomatic, and wasn't in a expansionist frame of mind whatsoever.

You are not aware of how anyone appears, you are too blinded by your ideology.

I guess i forgot put my blind man vision visor on the day they were showing pictures of people from different countries at school then!

Um, all the territories desired to join the U.S.. After the Mexican American war, many Mexicans wanted to join the U.S.. Do you know that originally Mexico wanted to model its constitution after the U.S., but the ruling oligarchies stopped that.

And so that is why California fought a war against the US invaders trying to annex it, after having declared independence from Mexico?

The U. S. is more than capable of protecting its border, but should we loose the capability, no doubt Mexico would be happy to take advantage, as they are currently taking advantage of U.S. sympathy for the poverty in their nation. The problem is that they have taken too much advantage, and now the people of the U.S. are starting to take action.

And you accuse me of bigotry. Look to your own prejudices first.

My experience is just the opposite of yours, and I live in the U.S. where there is far more interaction between Mexicans and U.S. citizens, and I have been to Mexico enough to see how things are, and have had many frank conversation with Mexicans in Mexico.

I suppose you suggest that this is because there are more Mexicans in the US then there are in Mexico or other such made up experiences just to back up your claims?

Here is the kicker, you claim that Americans all treat Mexicans badly, and that the fault is all on the American, where I have never claimed Mexicans are all, or mostly, jerks as you have claimed about Americans. All I have done is point out your historical inaccuracies and bigotry.

Another quote of yours

The Mexican attitude towards the U.S. is easily summed up at this. What is yours is ours, what is ours is ours.

But maybe I am a little sweeping in my assumption that ALL Americans are jerks to Mexicans and treat them as servant and second rate people. But why is it that they have this reputation. And when I see Americans in Mexico. the general jibes going around is about how bad things are in Mexico, how good everything is in the US. and constant bravado, and showiness, which when in context of the surrounds may be seen as inappropriate.

Your bias is clear in your portrayal of Americans, of history, and so the ethnic make up of Mexico. No doubt you will continue to cling to it.

Indeed, as everything i have said in my posts, through empirical evidence, and my own experience, is true and witnessed fact.

Most Mexicans and South Americans interpret "gusto" as I like, and know exactly what I am talking about. Also, my statement was about Latin American culture, which includes all the countries south of Mexico as well. Colombia is much more fun.

Gusto comes from Gustar, which you are correct, in that i means To Like, So "yo me gusto" means I like, Me Gustas, means I like you, whereas "Mucho Gusto" as you wrote, means nice to meet you. or in some cases, you're welcome, Although that would be "Con mucho gusto"
So seeing as you are such a nitpicking perfectionist for detail and accuracy, I am sure you can appreciate this sentiment rather than just saying, "oh well you know what I mean anyway"

It seems we differ on most thing, I found Colombia to be hard work. And there just seemed to be something wrong with the food. which was agreed with by my latin American Collueges, Although maybe that was just Bogota. but I am glad you enjoyed it.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


Now you are just repeating nonsense.

No, not a direct quote.

Mexico started the Mexican American war, it is a historical fact. And it was a war of aggression waged by Mexico.

www.lone-star.net...

Mexican leaders clearly expected to win these battles as well as to recover Texas and win the war. Parades spoke grandly of occupying New Orleans and Mobile. His army of about 32,000 men was four to six times the size of the original U.S. army. Furthermore, Mexican troops were well armed, disciplined, and, above all, experienced in scores of revolutions. Parades also counted on logistics. The principal theater of war would be Texas, hundreds of miles from the populous areas of the United States. Many Centralists believed that abolitionists' objections to the war would demoralize the United States, and some Centralists believed a Mexican invasion would be supported by a massive slave uprising.

Thus, the quick defeats at Palo Alto and Resaca de la Palma surprised and shocked the Mexican leadership. The U.S. victories against a larger, better trained force were attributed to the unexpected effectiveness of the American light artillery. Parades found it expedient, however, to lay the blame on his commanding general, and he quickly replaced him. The Mexican garrison evacuated Matamoros, moving to the south.

At what point do you realize you are making a fool of yourself?

Heck the Mexicans will bring up how much better things are in the U.S.. I prefer to talk about the nice beaches, the quaint downtowns, and of course the beautiful women.

There are an equal share of jerks on both sides of the border, to claim differently just proves your bias.