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How to spot quantum quackery

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posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 07:21 AM
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Didn't see this anywhere else and wasn't sure where to put it...

cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com...

Some argue that the same quantum processes seen in the universe around us have an effect on consciousness as well, but physicist Lawrence Krauss says that's highly debatable.

Alan Boyle writes: Can the weirdness of quantum mechanics make you well, or make you wealthy? Presentations ranging from "The Secret" to "What the Bleep Do We Know?" suggest that science allows you to capitalize on quantum possibilities, but theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss says it's just a load of bleep........

......Krauss worries that a lot of people can be fooled by appeals to the admittedly weird world of quantum physics — a world in which particles are said to take every possible path from point A to point B, in which the position and velocity of particles are necessarily cloaked in uncertainty, in which the mere act of observation changes the thing being observed.

In the last of a series of columns written for Scientific American, Krauss says "no area of physics stimulates more nonsense in the public arena than quantum mechanics." His list of "worst abusers" includes inspirational author Deepak Chopra, the best-selling book "The Secret" and the whole field of Transcendental Meditation. So what constitutes quantum quackery? Krauss discussed his criteria ln our interview last week. Here's an edited transcript:

cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com...




posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by Pauligirl
 




So when you hear about quantum mechanics and devices, you can say, "OK, that sounds reasonable." But when you hear about quantum mechanics and consciousness, you should assume the author is a crackpot unless proven otherwise. Moreover, assume that they want your money. ...


There's a lot of crackpottery out there. Maybe this will help dispel some of the woo-woo science we see. Then again, maybe not.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 07:39 AM
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Actually its the "quacks" (Metaphysicists) that have been talking about and predicted all the Behaviours of the quantum world hundreds and even thousands of years before Physicists "discovered" these things. Science moves forward in snail pace. In another 1000 years they will have caught up with Metaphysics.

I apologize for the dissent.


edit on 21-9-2010 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 07:48 AM
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to see such adamant attempts like this at discrediting the topic of quantum mechanics in the everyday existence and conciousness proves to me on a personal level that it is something they want to hide,

this guy is basicaly saying shut up and leave it to the professionals, while calling crackpots anyone in the public arena who cares to converse about the potential meaning of quantum mechanics, it's impossible to ponder the macroscopic effect of quantum mechanics without taking into account our very own existence and conciousness, but this man would call you a fool to consider such a topic of conversation.

and he offers no proof or reason for why, just his own opinion based on blind faith.


edit on 21-9-2010 by pryingopen3rdeye because: spelling



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 07:55 AM
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It's obvious there is an agenda with this subject matter, yes? That it is a tool for a specific end...

Just my opinion, but the fake "demonic" aliens come through Fermilabs' Tevatron (just outside Chicago, IL). Then "Heaven" (an "extradimensional" place) and the "god particle" are "accessed" via the Large Hadron Collider with the help of our alien buddies and "Christ".



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:01 AM
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reply to post by pryingopen3rdeye
 




Have a star.

I agree with everything you said, it looks like a blatant attempt to discredit the subject if you ask me.

Quantum Mechanics is something I'm very interested in and while I'll admit that some concepts in "What The Bleep Do We Know?" are dramatized, there's a lot of real information in the film such as atoms being composed of 99% of nothing, the same atom being in the two different places at the same time etc



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:06 AM
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Reading that article reminds me of watching 911 truthers on fox news.


No evidence or real explanation, he's just trying to bully people into his mind set.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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All is as should be.

To fully understand the Secret or what the bleep you have to first understand our true nature.

As a scholar of Quantum Mechanics the results of my studies have led me to an understanding that all separation is an illusion. There is no difference between you as you are now and you as you want to be.

What will really bake your noodle is in reality there is no difference between your body and the seat you are sitting on. We are all made of the same stuff Space-time... And space-time itself at the most fundamental scale the Planck length which is 10 to the minus 35 meters is the plane of consciousness. Your brain is not where your consciousness is created, more it is where your consciousness springs and is the instrument by which consciousness can arise.

Ever asked yourself why some people are so diametrically different in their personality to you??

The reason is that each brain is like a radio tuned to receive only certain frequencies, the true nature of consciousness is all things all frequencies, and our brain receives only some of those things those frequencies. There are some core frequencies that we all can receive and this is where the notion of global consciousness comes from.

Sounds all metaphysical doesn't it??

Well guess what, everything I said has a foundation in real testable results and real math and physics.

This is the principle of the Secret and What the bleep.

Korg.


edit on 21-9-2010 by Korg Trinity because: Spelling




posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Actually its the "quacks" (Metaphysicists) that have been talking about and predicted all the Behaviours of the quantum world hundreds and even thousands of years before Physicists "discovered" these things. Science moves forward in snail pace. In another 1000 years they will have caught up with Metaphysics.

I apologize for the dissent.


Exactly my thoughts. Except I don't expect it to take another 1000 years before science catches up with metaphysics. Or better, I hope not.


Lawrence Krauss approaches quantum physics from a rigid classical scientific mindframe, a rather contradictory stance. His old paradigm seems to prevent him from actually understanding the consequences of quantum physics for our existence - just as he admits not fully understanding what consciousness is.
Or he indeed has an agenda.

He argues that quantum physics only account in a well controlled scientific micro environment, for a short stance of time, and shouldn't be accepted as existing on a macro level. There's no logic in his reasoning. To start with, he should let go of his fixed ideas on concepts like time and space when talking quantum mechanics.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:20 AM
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I dont think anyone knows enough of the quantum world to proclaim its not linked in someway. TV programs like the secret and what the bleep are dramatizations what other way do they have to get the picture over to the layman. Just because the behavior in the quantum world is different than our macro world means nothing at this point we just haven't yet found the link.

Look at a microprocessor running under an electron microscope and you would wonder what the link was if you didn't know the rest of the computer existed. Yet it eventually produces a spread sheet a computer game or a simulation such as the sims.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by Pauligirl
 


we are very much attached in everyway to the universe and it most definatley effects our conciousness.

also i agree that quantum mechanics causes confusion...our understanding of it is incomplete and it will most probably become an obsolete empty word, after we have used it as a stepping stone onto something else?

maybe our current understanding of science has reached a dead end?


edit on 21-9-2010 by theAymen because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:30 AM
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Quantum quackery
...funny phrase. Score one to the "quantum haters".
IMO, QM is slowly revealing the true nature of reality, and it all slots together nicely with metaphysics. It's quite obvious in my opinion consciousness is deeply embedded within the framework of reality, it's also quite obvious that everything in the Universe is interconnected.

Quantum Mechanics will blow your mind - the peculiar features of quantum theory!

-all particles are popping in and out of existence.
-any particle can exist in more than one place at any one time.
-any particle is also simultaneously existing as a wave.
-at some level everything is connected.
-the observer can collapse the wave function of such particle waves simply by observing it.
-a particle-wave may interfere with its self.
-energy and mass are interchangeable.
-"empty" space fluctuates with activity.



edit on 21/9/10 by CHA0S because: grammar



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by Pauligirl
 


Maybe this will help dispel some of the woo-woo science we see. Then again, maybe not.

As you may have already concluded from the responses to your OP, Pauligirl, all it will do is make the believers hug their beliefs more tightly to themselves.

I take deep, abiding satisfaction in knowing that all their attempts to make their quantum wishes come true are doomed to repeated, total, abject failure. Ya boo sucks to them all, the silly geese.

Quantum quackery. Brings out the Adjectivator in me every time.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by pryingopen3rdeye
 




Have a star.

I agree with everything you said, it looks like a blatant attempt to discredit the subject if you ask me.

Quantum Mechanics is something I'm very interested in and while I'll admit that some concepts in "What The Bleep Do We Know?" are dramatized, there's a lot of real information in the film such as atoms being composed of 99% of nothing, the same atom being in the two different places at the same time etc



thank you,

i agree with all you said to.

i actualy first got into quantum mechanics when entire episodes were being devoted to it on the science channel, before what the bleep do we know even came out, and i had never seen the secret till recently, those movies are just junk to try and make science-pop, they sucked, but werent exactly off at all the concepts were not their own and actualy did come from other physicist's, so even more that guy in the article is also attacking the views of some certain professionals

anyway on the topic of quantum being micro and/or macro lets look at this,

from here - sci.tech-archive.net...

Number 613 #1, November 13, 2002 by Phil Schewe, James Riordon, and Ben Stein
www.aip.org...
A Bi-Photon de Broglie Wavelength

A bi-photon de Broglie wavelength has been directly measured in an interference experiment for the first time. In the early days of quantum mechanics, Louis de Broglie argued that if waves could act like particles (photoelectric effect) then why couldn't particles act like waves?

They could, as was borne out in numerous experiments (the double-slit experiment for electrons was voted the "most beautiful" experiment in a recent poll—see Physics World, Sept 2002).

In fact, intact atoms in motion and even molecules can be thought of as "de Broglie waves." Molecules as large as buckyballs (carbon-60) have been sent through an interferometer, creating a characteristic interference pattern....




so now not only have we seen particles act quantum but also a molecule which consists of 60 atoms, thats a big molecule, it goes particle - atom - molecule - us. and yet the man the op's article is about would have you think the last step from molecule to us is just ludicrous



edit - btw the article in the op confesses that superconducters also show quantum effects on a macro scale. so glad he can agree on this, also take note your pineal gland/third eye contains a superconducting fluid. i think it would be foolish to say quantum effects don't occur in our brains/mind and thus our concious.

whats even more foolish is to condemn such topic of conversation as foolish all together as is the attempt here, regardless over point of opinion, one can not be allowed to even discuss it to gain their own opinion if the OP's source is to be agreed with..



reply to post by Astyanax
 




you realy only posted an insult and how much you enjoy being able to insult these particular opinions.

not even any intelligent discusion on the question at hand, just a simple siding with the source of the article, how shamefull.

the question at hand i believe ought to be quantum and the micro vs macro scopic, instead the source article is just conversations about (micro vs macro scopic quantum effects) VS (DONT FREAKIN TALK ABOUT.)

don't be foolish, no one who tells you not to talk about certain things cares anything about your personal knowledge.


edit on 21-9-2010 by pryingopen3rdeye because: noted



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 04:24 PM
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For me, Quantum mechanics is where Science meets Spirituality.

I welcome this branch of science. It is not that I expect to learn something from it. It is more a case that at last Science is starting to catch up. What was known in Esoteric Science ( The Occult) for thousands of years is only just starting to be discovered through Quantum Mechanics.

However , I still have more faith in Esoteric science.

The positive thing about QM is that you can use it to add weight to some spiritual and occult theories.

I remember some 20 years ago I was watching The Ten Commandments on my old VHS video recorder , with Charlton Heston. It was raining heavily and there was thunder outside. Suddenly the video stopped playing. Something in me made me want to look at the video counter. It read 666 - as I expected !!. Now this is a typical case of Quantum Mechanics at play and I can use QM to explain why this happened. Twenty years ago I would have had to explain it using occult terminology and nobody would understand. Now I can explain it through QM and most will understand.

As some of you will realise, the counter read exactly what I expected it to read. I expected to see 666 because of the atmosphere of the film, the thunder and heavy rain outside my home - and also because I was a youngster who had watched too many omen movies. There was probably a power cut for a split second which stopped the video recorder. Then my expectation came into play and " matter behaved according to the observer" or rather matter behave according to what the observer expected. A good example of Quantum mechanics in action.

"If you look for waves you will see waves; If you look for atoms you will see atoms" as the saying goes in Quantum Mechanics.








edit on 21-9-2010 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Pauligirl
Some argue that the same quantum processes seen in the universe around us have an effect on consciousness as well


It is the other way around.

Consciousness has an effect on quantum processes.

More specifically the availability of information to consciousness has an effect on reality.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Pauligirl
 


Maybe this will help dispel some of the woo-woo science we see. Then again, maybe not.

As you may have already concluded from the responses to your OP, Pauligirl, all it will do is make the believers hug their beliefs more tightly to themselves.

I take deep, abiding satisfaction in knowing that all their attempts to make their quantum wishes come true are doomed to repeated, total, abject failure. Ya boo sucks to them all, the silly geese.

Quantum quackery. Brings out the Adjectivator in me every time.


Yeap. Maybe I should have posted this instead.
www.runes-for-health-wealth-love-now.com...


We discovered the runes, quantum physics, radionics and orgone generator technology. Now that we have evolved into the 21st century, we must learn to use our 21st century tools to evolve our gods/goddesses and our ancestral soul.


Meh.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by Pauligirl

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Pauligirl
 


Maybe this will help dispel some of the woo-woo science we see. Then again, maybe not.

As you may have already concluded from the responses to your OP, Pauligirl, all it will do is make the believers hug their beliefs more tightly to themselves.

I take deep, abiding satisfaction in knowing that all their attempts to make their quantum wishes come true are doomed to repeated, total, abject failure. Ya boo sucks to them all, the silly geese.

Quantum quackery. Brings out the Adjectivator in me every time.


Yeap. Maybe I should have posted this instead.
www.runes-for-health-wealth-love-now.com...


We discovered the runes, quantum physics, radionics and orgone generator technology. Now that we have evolved into the 21st century, we must learn to use our 21st century tools to evolve our gods/goddesses and our ancestral soul.


Meh.


are you trying to look for the least appealing and most unfounded? it sure seems that way,

i got one better for you

vids.myspace.com...

your OP's source is of the opinion that Michio Kaku is also a crackpot,



posted on Sep, 22 2010 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by pryingopen3rdeye

are you trying to look for the least appealing and most unfounded? it sure seems that way,


Yes I was, because to me, that was pretty much the point of the original article. Quantum quackery. Why do you find it least appealing and most unfounded?


i got one better for you

vids.myspace.com...

your OP's source is of the opinion that Michio Kaku is also a crackpot,


Interesting. I hadn't seen that one before, but I don't think Lawrence Krauss is calling Kaku a crackpot. Or maybe he is, I don't know. Granted, Krauss doesn't agree with the whole multiverse idea, but it seems that what he's going after is expressed in the article's original question: "Can the weirdness of quantum mechanics make you well, or make you wealthy?" and the promoters of such as Deepak Chopra, and the book "The Secret." No real quantum mechanics there, just junk science.



posted on Sep, 22 2010 @ 01:19 AM
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Hmmm... unfortunate that the scientific community harbors such harsh gatekeepers.

What does this guy think about quantum mechanics in neuroplasticity?

You can call it consciousness if you want - or you can call it the phenomenon of self-directed neuroplasticity.

Honestly, I'm not joking look it up.

It is literally the 'Will' described in scientific terms.

How does he think he thinks? Obviously QM has - if correct - influenced the evolution of our brain...

He gets two
from me.


edit to add: And would this same guy also deny Zero Point energy/density fluctuations
which, incidentally, was confirmed due to the quantum system never being at rest...

[Enter Thomas Aquinas and presocratics]


edit on 22-9-2010 by beebs because: (no reason given)



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