The END of Online Piracy

reply to post by UKWO1Phot


Please point out where I said they have been "going at it" for 20 years.... I said I was friends with a member for 20 years... Big difference.

Does their income matter? Does it matter how much is lost?...
No!!!! Any money lost is taken without consent !!! PERIOD!!!

I simply used taproot as an example, because I know a member, and later because it was just simply a name for an example..Although, they are a great band !

reply to post by daskakik


Yep, thats them, my buddy is back right side. I agree that the record companies are tyrants.. But, in the big picture.. the artists are hurt by illegal downloads..Are they raked over the coals by the record companies? Of course! But there is money lost on the free downloading.

reply to post by Mobius1974


My point was that if they (hawthorn heights in that example but any band really) had followed the "pay what you like" they could have come out alot better.

I mean I don't remember having ever heard of taproot before you mentioned them here. They didn't spend a dime to have you put their name up here. I checked out there facebook page and listened to a couple streams. Went to Victory Records site and they have a new cd for ~$13.00 and no DL option. I can't pay that amount for a CD so they miss a sale with me. If I could have downloaded for $5 I may have gone for it and if I could DL and pay what I can I would have at least offered what the Label would have given them if it actually pays up.

This reminds me. A couple of years ago my sister bought me a U2 cd. I told her that I could have just downloaded it or that we could have made a copy of hers. "I know" she said, "but their my boys so I don't mind giving them my money". Too bad even they probably only get a buck out of the deal.

reply to post by daskakik


I hope you dont think that a band that is signed with a major record company, has any control over the price.. They know what is expected by the "overhead" and then control the profit above and beyond that..

Taproot is pretty big.. If you saw how meagerly the band lives, you would appreciate their situation. They are your average buddy from high school...

The band doesn't lose a fortune from illegal downloads... But it definetly affects whether they buy a new car and a used car.

reply to post by Mobius1974


I know that the band doesn't have control. They sign all that over to the label usually with the rights to their art.

Had they not signed with that label (or any label) and used word of mouth, social networks, a site with a donate/"pay what you like" button and/or sites that allow musicians to sell their music through them then they would not have lost that control and they would probably have a bit more cash in their pockets because loyal fans don't mind helping out "their boys" but not if it isn't getting to them. I don't buy that trickle down economics theory.

reply to post by Mobius1974


The situation is that the music industry was spoiled for a while. People and labels made millions from record sales for a while. But that was all an illusion and temporary. There are so many artists that can't see that now and are failing and baffled. They don't know how to adjust.

Money is made from doing shows for artists...period! Record sales are nothing more than the gravy, that was only available because the world was adjusting to the technology available.

The people who are crying are the people who have the least to do with the creation of art. The people who loan artists thousands of dollars to do what they do and then repay them. It's the dozens of middle men who are losing out. They have become fat by weaseling their hands into true artists pockets. Compare it to health insurance companies. A person should be able to directly negotiate with their doctor concerning compensation. Some slick genius came up with a way to make it seem at first, and then make it reality that he should be involved first with YOUR healthcare. He isn't providing nothing but a gap, while he's profiting himself.

This has been around since time began. There will always be people who find a way to make something for their actually offering nothing. Ancient priests even found a way to make it that people actually felt they couldn't talk directly to God but had to go through them first, have their priest relay a message. For a fee of course.

I'm a independent artist and it would be gravy if I got paid for everytime my song was downloaded or listened too, but those days are over. Now I have to actually work. If I want money I have to go and perform a show, work up a sweat. I can't do what many lazy people breaking into the industry expect; record a album, put it out and sit on my arse for two years eating good until I feel like doing it again. That model drew too many lazy hustlers into the music industry in the first place.

There is no going back, only forward. Someone can waste time whining and complaining or turn the way things are to their advantage.

This piracy business is all the fault of poor people. Damn them anyway. Just get rid of all the poor and problem solved.

The movie and recording industries depend on stupidity. If you're stupid enough to fork out $20 bucks for a CD or $12 bucks for a seat in a theatre you've passed the industry IQ test and are forever a "valued customer". I believe the Yiddish term is schmuck.

I quit complaining about the cost of movies and cds about the same time I quit buying them. My wallet rejoiced and I was on a personal high having re-empowered myself with the ability to say "no".

Bono isn't my favorite charity nor is Spielberg. If these or the likes are dependent on me to eat they will get very skinny before much longer.

This is where the vast majority of people miss the boat. They have the economic power to drive prices down by simply not spending money. If people understood what the corporate hierarchy had to do to keep stockholders happy they'd realize they have the power not the corporation. If there is no demand companies have few choices in order to keep the cash flowing.

Just once I'd like to see Main Street flex it's muscle if for no other reason than to see them reacquaint themselves with the power they still wield. We have the power to bust monopolies and to end wars. All we have to do is quit whining and do it.

If it's an end to piracy the world wants then the world needs to work to ensure good jobs that pay decent wages. 90% of the worlds pirates would disappear if the movies, music and software was reasonably priced and affordable for the majority.

Originally posted by Mobius1974
reply to post by daskakik

 

The band doesn't lose a fortune from illegal downloads... But it definetly affects whether they buy a new car and a used car.

edit on 22-9-2010 by Mobius1974 because: (no reason given)

They don't lose a cent, because you can't lose something you never had.
I wrote this little computer game. Last time I checked there were about 5000 people who had downloaded it. Does this mean 5000 people play it? No. Does this mean 5000 people have played it? No. Does this mean I would have 50.000 Dollars now if I charged 10$ per download? No. Would that be a yearly income from writing computergames of 25.000 Dollars? Yes (For those of you not good with math: took me 2 years of my spare time to write it). Can I guess that propably about 100-500 people have played it? More like it.

What is so hard to get here Mobius? Yes, you can try to sell whatever you want, in whatever packaging you want for whatever price (Unless there is a state granted monopoly, like with music recordings) But if I don't buy it you can not blame me! Well, you can, but it won't help your sales.
Another point of course is, that it's a zero sum game. I don't buy a CD and I am just as happy as during the times I went into the record store 2-3 times a week. What do I do with the dollars I used to give to my record store? I give it to my ISP who realizes that its suddenly worth it to provide broadband access to rural areas. I go and have dinner in a nice restaurant.
If Piracy is killed, will you be just as quick to acusse everybody who buys CDs of stealing from restaurants?
You sound like a luddite , mobius.

Originally posted by CmdrZero
This is where the vast majority of people miss the boat. They have the economic power to drive prices down by simply not spending money. If people understood what the corporate hierarchy had to do to keep stockholders happy they'd realize they have the power not the corporation. If there is no demand companies have few choices in order to keep the cash flowing.

Knowing the Industry they'll refuse to change the business model and adapt to the inevitable - stubbornly blame their dwindling profits on piracy and find ways to curb websites and make up new laws.

second line.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Ok... so lets apply this to the average band.... Because to "real, true" musicians it is all about the music... Are they drugged into signing? Are they hypnotized? ... Oh wait.. a career eventually turns into financial gain, or so is hoped.

So then who exactly are the bands that stand up to "the man" and do it strictly for the money? Some might argue that they are an underground band that enjoys the undergroud scene..For a select few, it is about only the music.. But if this is something you love, and would like to do this to make a living, who are we to tell them how much money is acceptable?

These band sign to have the security to consider their art a career. They go in expecting to sell their music, and sign a contract stating that. Are they greedy? Maybe just trying to make a living from their art..

The band that I was specifically speaking of came on the scene around the time that napster was ending. Shortly after, the file sharing network exploded. This increase in downloads tramatized most bands. Some changed marketing approaches and some collapsed, but almost all felt it.

I agree that they should change strategy and attempt to fit into the digital lifestyle, but I disagree with protesting by stealing.

I read all of your responses, and agree with a good portion of the logic. I simply have a very firm stance on this, due to personal information or influence, and see it from the artists point of view.

If you were a lead singer of a band and could quit your day job, you would try to get your money from the sale of your product. How can you knock a guy for going after what is his?

Until their is a viable solution to this, the artist will always suffer in some way, from sharing.

How many albums have you bought that you had never previously heard?

I've done it a few times because I really like an artist and am pretty sure their new joint will be worth it, but very few (next to no one) will buy an album they have never heard from an artist they don't already know.

Most record companys are beginning to realize that free downloads aren't as bad as they thought and are actually a good way to promote the band. ..Just like radio and music videos (do those still exist?) or hearing an album in your friends car and so on.

For instance about ayear ago I was curious about black metal. I had heard the term and seen pictures of guys dressed as Zartan but wasn't really sure what it was sound wise and wasn't even sure if I'd like it. So I found a black metal blog and checked out a few albums. One album caught my attention because I really liked the art on the cover. I downloaded it and loved it. I then made a post about said album on a message board I frequent. Several other posters on that board posted comments saying that on my suggestion they too had checked out the album and were going to buy physical copies. One of the people on that board who liked the album reviews records for a living. ...more promotion for the album.


Here is the Oranssi Pazuz album art that pequed my interest (and maybe yours)
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0c2a4eccfe87.jpg[/atsimg]
Oranssi Pazuzu

So because I "stole" the album I generated a minimum of at least 6 sales of the album and got somone who reviews records interested and now I'm exposing you guys as well.


The idea that a band isn't making money because they are having their music "stolen" off the internet is absurd. Maybe the band are old and tired. Maybe they weren't any good to begin with. Maybe they are being screwed by their record label.

I played music for about ten years and would have loved for millions of people to have downloaded my stuff FOR FREE. It would have ment that people were interested and that my music was growing a fan base, and it would have been the foundation from which I could have turned that interest into money and therfore a living.

Originally posted by Mobius1974 who are we to tell them how much money is acceptable?

Who are we? Consumers.
We tell people at what price we are willing to buy all the time, for all kinds of things. If they don't offer at that price, we don't buy. It's called "Free Market"
I think it's nice that some people want to get rich by selling CDs. Am I obliged to help them with it? No.
It worked in the 90ies. Another thing that worked in the 90ies was to found a company, put "internet" somewhere in the name, and sell stock. Should we pass laws to ensure that that way of making money works again too? If not, why not? And if not, why again do we have to subsidize CDs, DVDs and the recording industry?

reply to post by Mobius1974


Go read the link I posted at the end of page 16. Yes, those are the things bands expect. Is it what they get? No. It's starts with a letter of intent and goes downhill from there.

reply to post by debunky


"We dont buy"... so we steal?? It really is funny how some of you justify this.. Your common theives.. Maybe you should stop stealing...pay your way in life.. maybe then your kids will have a parental figure to be proud of..

Maybe "little Jonny" should take one of your "ripped" movies in for show and tell...
"This is a DVD that my daddy stole for me.. Most people pay money for these.. not my daddy, he steals them!"

Originally posted by RestingInPieces

Originally posted by silo13

If I can listen to 'Waka Waka' for free at Mc Donalds while buying myself a heartattck? I should be able to listen to it on my computer - minus the plaque and grease!

The radio station and/or McDonalds is licensed to play the song. Your computer is not, unless you purchase the rights to the song or get licensed to play it from your computer.

Things must have changed a LOT over time. I did a gig as a DJ at a commercial radio station a few years back (we still used cart machines to run our spots, so anyone in the business can gauge about how far back that was - for everyone else it was in the 80's). I understand that times change, but when did they change that?

We didn't pay any sort of licensing fees for ANY of the music we played. Most labels, and a few individual musicians, sent comp copies to us gratis. We got it free, on the theory that when we played it, folks would want to buy a copy of their own if they liked it, and go to concerts and things. Every now and then, a record would sneak through and we didn't get a copy for one reason or another. If it made it up to a certain point on the charts, we'd head to the store and buy a copy, but that was pretty rare. Yeah, whenever we did that, we used the same store Joe Public used.

Every now and then, a label would try to sell us their product before it even hit the charts. We never bought . If it turned out to be good enough for air time, we'd head to the music store and buy a copy then, but not sight unseen.

We never, ever, paid any sort of "licensing fee" to any one other than the standard FCC operation licenses, and local business licenses. Never a licensing fee to a record label or artist. That would have been entirely contrary to the business model. If you wanted your song heard, you gave it to us, we played it, and if people liked it they bought it.

Most of our copies were stamped along the lines of "STATION COPY -NOT FOR RESALE".

"Licensing fees"? Pshaw. You want your stuff to sell, put it out there and see if anyone wants to buy. Marketing, not extortion.

Like I said, time must have changed a lot. Greed is gonna kill us all.

Or at the very least make life pretty boring when folks rebel against crap being force fed them.

Originally posted by Mobius1974
reply to post by debunky

 

"We dont buy"... so we steal?? It really is funny how some of you justify this.. Your common theives.. Maybe you should stop stealing...pay your way in life.. maybe then your kids will have a parental figure to be proud of..

Maybe "little Jonny" should take one of your "ripped" movies in for show and tell...
"This is a DVD that my daddy stole for me.. Most people pay money for these.. not my daddy, he steals them!"

*yawn*
I have never stolen a thing in my life.

You, on the other hand seem to be quite happy to use my Tax-euros to prop up an industry that only manages to produce Disks with an immense overhead. Something everybody who really wants it, can do at home these days, with very little effort, and no investment in Hardware than your standard PC he will have standing around anyway. (and 10c for a disk)
Doesnt that make you a thief, rather than me, and on a much bigger scale? We are talking billions here worldwide.

Originally posted by Mak Manto

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by serbsta

 

It should be free, if I find it on some site it's not my fault it's there for download as long as I can download it.
It should be restricted, not available, password protected I don't know, but as long as it is click the link and download then I don't see the problem.

That is honestly a lame argument...

If that was justifiable, anybody could use that as an argument.

"Oh, I found some child pornography on some site, it's not my fault it's there for download as long as I can download it."

I guess you decided to use another lame argument to make your point.

Let em explain.

child porn = illegal to exist in any form at all

mp3 music = some exists free at lower quality, some is totally free, some is not free, but all legal to exist.

reply to post by debunky


That is the most water brained argument I have ever read.... Do you even know what overhead is? Apparently you are not even familiar with what it takes to run a business.. That does not suprise me.. I would expect no more.

Originally posted by Mobius1974
reply to post by debunky

 

That is the most water brained argument I have ever read.... Do you even know what overhead is? Apparently you are not even familiar with what it takes to run a business.. That does not suprise me.. I would expect no more.

Cost not associated with direct production of the good. Can be variable or non variable.
Do you know what theft is?

Originally posted by thomas_
reply to post by serbsta

 

... At best they will manage to force all the US ISPs to block such addresses and nothing more. Unless of course the foreign country where such sites are hosted decides to work hand in hand with the US and bend their own laws to block these. Something that I doubt will happen in every instance for every country out there.

... and for that, the gods spoke, and said "TOR BE!... and TOR was..."

Works for China's Great Firewall, and Iranian censors, so it ought to work for US and any other country as well.