So what is england exactly? Is it just a corporation operating as a nation? How can it have no constitution and be recognized as a nation? What is the Supreme Law of the Land then? Please can somebody clarify?

MOOR, England doesn't have a contitution - more's the pity - and it basically functions as a mouthy region of the UK. Ancient countries like our's don't need your new-fangled constitutions to define ourselves, we can do it with twenty thousand pages of arcane legislation written in latin.

And thanks, Zzub, for the voice of reason. I agree that the arguments in favour of the EU aren't completely watertight, although I find them convincing enough, but I respect your right to your opinion. The UK is the UK, for better or worse - all this St. George nonsense is just weakening England's position further.

I adore England, in much the same way as I adore the US - both countries have produced wonders in the past, but are currently crippled by corrupt, hateful leaders. But this right-wing nationalistic rubbish does England no favours - if you want to express yourself as a contemporary, healthy Englishman, go and kick a BNP candidate or swear at Robert Kilroy-Silk. That way, everyone wins!

I need to continue to study this. In constitution I meant any document which govens the land not necessarily like the one the U.S. has almost abandoned. Very interesting. I'm gonna see if I can find decent info about this online. Everything is so corrupted on the net these days! Thanks. I'm still not clear completely.

There are limits to government power, but not written in one single document.

I'm assuming that those who claim euro-skeptics are drunk on"dreams of empire" or jingoistic irrational isolationists are going to study the real issues at some point, rather than sticking to name calling.

I understand some people want a change. It's normal to want some shake-up and for anyone with a grudge to bear against England/The British Establishment/the Queen or whoever to want to remove or nullify these things. It's OK.. we all get a bit miffed at the government sometimes, but scrapping it for an even BIGGER government really isn't going to help matters.

The thing is, for those who feel alienated by the UK, are you REALLY going to get what you're looking for in Europe? Is Europe more democratic the the UK? Is it more efficiently run? Is it more able to respond to the needs of the people? What EXACTLY are the economic advantages of closer ties with Europe?

Well, muppet, obviously I can't answer for others, but I don't feel alienated from the UK, nor do I have a grudge to bear - although I will admit that I'm not a monarchist. I want the UK to fully commit to the EU precisely because I want want this country to continue to thrive, to share our economic power and cultural wealth with our neighbours.

To be fair, there's silly name-calling on both sides of the debate, but it indicates deeper, and much more significant, arguments. Is the EU a giant, all-conquering dictatorship? No, of course not. Are those who fanatically wave the George Cross during Euro 2004 and Wimbledon isolationalist neo-luddites? No - at least, not entirely.

Sadly, this isn't the thread to get into the economic arguments regarding Europe - but rest assured, we'll save that for another day. Right now, I hope we can agree than England's best chance for a successful future is to embrace what it is now - a part of the UK and a part of the EU - and begin to define a new, 21st-century patriotism based on multiculturalism, social and technological dynamism, a rich heritage, and a flag which, nice as it is, looks a damn sight better with some blue in it.

England isn't under threat from the the EU, whatever their future relationship will be. England is under threat from small-minded bigots who want to ruin it for everyone else.

Wouldn't you agree, UK Wizard?

Originally posted by StrangeLands
England is under threat from small-minded bigots who want to ruin it for everyone else.

I take it you are refering to the BNP? *sighs* the lies of nazism. Nationalism is on the rise throughout Europe and in the UK, i don't mind nationalism, but when racists start to pump the public full of fear and lies then nationalism becomes dangerous.

The BNP, and, sadly, the more extreme members of the other nationalist parties (the UKIP, for instance).

You speak the truth, infinite. Patriotism should be a good and noble thing, but not when it's corrupted by the self-serving lies of the extremists. It's funny - and worrying - that countries throughout the EU, and our cousins across the Atlantic, are all facing a similiar threat at the same time. Now there's something for NWO theorists to get their teeth into!

Originally posted by StrangeLands
The BNP, and, sadly, the more extreme members of the other nationalist parties (the UKIP, for instance).

You speak the truth, infinite. Patriotism should be a good and noble thing, but not when it's corrupted by the self-serving lies of the extremists. It's funny - and worrying - that countries throughout the EU, and our cousins across the Atlantic, are all facing a similiar threat at the same time. Now there's something for NWO theorists to get their teeth into!

Don't get me started on UKIP lol UKIP are hidden racists who are too scared to admit it. UKIP would have never done well, if we all found out they were a bunch of racists. UKIP policies are almost like the BNP's, racists

Originally posted by StrangeLands
Sadly, this isn't the thread to get into the economic arguments regarding Europe - but rest assured, we'll save that for another day. Right now, I hope we can agree than England's best chance for a successful future is to embrace what it is now - a part of the UK and a part of the EU - and begin to define a new, 21st-century patriotism based on multiculturalism, social and technological dynamism, a rich heritage, and a flag which, nice as it is, looks a damn sight better with some blue in it.

You're right the economic arguments will come later, partly because they rely on some resolution as to what the EU actually IS at this point and what it wants to BE. For now you and I both are limited in our arguments since the politicians are still hammering out the deals to offer us.

I also think it's probably best if we don't wear each other out at this stage. It could be ages yet till be see the proper Euro referendum, and we don't want to peak too early. You and I could be worn out by the time it matters!!

There is one big advantage to all this though. It will hopefully wake a lot of people up to politics, and give people reason to think about who they are and what their relationship to their government and their country should be... which can't be a bad thing whichever camp you're in. Viva democracy.

anyway... 'til next time.

Racism is what you get when you supress national idenity and national pride. Thats why proper patriotism must be freely encouraged and expressed.

When you attempt to strip people of national idenity and historical pride, the spectre of racism follows in its wake. This is the backlash.

it happened in the states too. Under Clinton look how nuts the milita's went? Look at OKC bombing, the Freemen in Montana standoff, ect.

If national preservation and pride arent allowed to flow normally, youre gonna get the BNP and others too, because people will counterreact in the extreme. Just something to think about when examining the concequences of the EU.

This thread, however, is about the existance of England. the fact that there are powerful people saying it dont is disturbing, to the very least. England has existed as a definied culture and society for 1000 years, and the fact that they dont have the paperwork saying so is disturbing.

If England doesnt exist, than niether does the US. After all, wasnt it King George of England that we fought that whole war against? Didnt he, or his represenetives, sign the treaty of Paris?

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
If national preservation and pride arent allowed to flow normally, youre gonna get the BNP and others too, because people will counterreact in the extreme. Just something to think about when examining the concequences of the EU.

I agree, that is a real danger. possibly not racism per-se but there will certainly be a rise in militant nationalism. You only need to look at Northern Ireland to get a hint of what may happen. What would be the European response to this? Do we want to create more IRA's and ETA's?

When Blair is booted out of office, we should have a national holiday where he is burned in effigy and we all drink cider and eat black pudding.

While we're at it, we can replace our toilet paper with copies of the European flag too

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Pisky]

Originally posted by Pisky
When Blair is booted out of office, we should have a national holiday where he is burned in effigy and we all drink cider and eat black pudding.
While we're at it, we can replace our toilet paper with copies of the European flag too
[edit on 23-6-2004 by Pisky]

I'll drink to that.. Although if I'm honest I'm not too sure about Michael Howard either.... Who was it that said he had "something of the night" about him...they were right, although as an ex-raver I'm probably biased..

LMAO. good call Pisky!
You know there is another alternative and the more I think about how it would piss off the EU the funnier it gets. Join the U.S. lol lol lol
Stop and think about it. Scots can still be Scots, England will have a very real and rock solid Identity, and you'll be really rubbing it in when Tony Blair has to call Bush sir. lol Then we can all impeach them both in unison!
God I could only wish we could kill two (rather moronic) birds (bush/blair) with one stone. Don't worry I am only half-serious. ;-)

Originally posted by Crysstaafur
LMAO. good call Pisky!
You know there is another alternative and the more I think about how it would piss off the EU the funnier it gets. Join the U.S. lol lol lol

I've got a better idea.. let's become part of China!! they're the biggest growing economy, and there's more of them than Europeans and Americans put together!! Think of the economic benefits! think of the future!

In reply to StrangeLands
The English identity has been hijacked by extremist far right neo-nazis.
Thats the main problem with modern england, its seen as a yobbish racist culture that belongs in the past. I don't think England will ever shed it's dark past, maybe it is time to move on but to where, i don't believe in the direction that the EU is taking (i won't start arguing again), maybe we could become more united on a larger scale where we are united on a global scale rather than a european scale.

I don't understand this at all or it's implications. I need Euro-politics 101 without the alarmism.

I understand the caveat loophole issue, but who would Blair "sell" England off to? Who would carve it up?

Is this situation in any way relatable to the struggle of D.C. citizens to gain state's rights (independence from federal i.e. "union" jurisdiction) without becoming Maryland or Virginia? For all intensive purposes America's capitol doesn't "exist" either. I know it's just a state analogy compared to a soverign nation, but I'm trying to understand.