Originally posted by Big Trouble in Little Chi

Truthers are not meant to be speculators... They see the flaws in the official story and search for truth... It is a debunkers trap to lure a truther into speculation... There are a lot of unanswered questions and some major flaws in the official story.

A new investigation is needed to determine the definitive truth.

edit on 16-10-2010 by spiritualzombie because: (no reason given)

Fair enough.
So who should be in charge of the new investigation? Who should be included in the new investigation?
What happens if the new investigation, comes to the same conclusion as the first investigation? Will you accept the findings at of the first investigation at that point?

The first investigation was so flawed, that no, I would not accept a second investigation that was exactly the same as the first.

Your logic of "what is the truthers official story" is irrelevant, the official investigation has so many holes in it, eventually we may find out what really did happen, but until then come to terms with the fact that you were lied to.

So without another investigation, how would we find out the truth?
And again, who would be in charge of that investigation? Who would you put in charge? What groups would you attach to the investigation?
These are questions that truthers need to answer if they want another investigation.

jfj123:

The real investigation started right after 9/11 and continues to this day. This informal investigation has a much better chance of actually getting to the bottom of things, rather than another investigation sanctioned by co-opted government officials that are really only there to keep the truth just out of view from the general public.

This informal investigation is decentralized and almost completely free of the constraints of academic pressure and career-advancement concerns. This investigation utilizes the resources of millions of people, most of which are generally concerned with discovering the truth.

If you follow the money, all roads lead back to the CIA. The hijackers funding came through Pakistan's ISI, but that same money also appears to have originated with the CIA chief in Dubai. One of the hijackers paid his tab at one of the bars in Florida just before the hijackings with a credit card issued by the federal government. That's our federal government.

All of those short sales and put options on the airlines stock before 9/11 that were never claimed lead back to the CIA.

The vans with the bombs that were discovered on 9/11 in or around the New York area belonged to our friends that we have a "special relationship" with, the Israelis (Mossad). It also looks like they were involved in setting up the charges that brought down all the buildings: however one can argue this last point.

The vans that were found to be filled with explosives and Israelis? Well there's not really any doubt there.

While I could almost convince myself that one building could fall down through the pancaking theory, the idea of all three falling so conveniently should raise a bunch of red flags for most people. However, despite all that, there's one thing that you can't fake with everyone of those buildings that fell. It's those perfect little puffs of smoke that can be seen a few floors below each level as it collapses. It's the same with all three buildings.

I suspect the hijackers thought they were just role playing in an security drill that was an expansion of the military's operation: Vigilant Guardian. If you listen to the air traffic control recordings, one of the hijackers says that there is a bomb on board but the demands have been met and that they will be heading back to the airport.
Well we know that didn't happen.

I also know "the hijackers" got a gun on-board because Daniel Lewin was shot. That seems awfully risky for such a big operation, unless the hijackers felt they didn't have to worry about security stopping them.

To recap, it appears "the hijackers" were role playing for their American employers that diverted money here and there to obscure the money trail a bit. The hijackers were double-crossed by their government employers.

Now remember that the technology to take over the piloting of a plane from the ground IN CASE OF A HIJACKING has been available for about twenty five or thirty years about now.

It wouldn't be the first time a plane was suspected of having its controls accessed from outside, and it leading to an "accident" or even a deliberate crash.

All the public saw were a bunch of evil Muslims terrorists.

Originally posted by nickspm
This informal investigation has a much better chance of actually getting to the bottom of things,

So what has it achieved so far? it was done by holographic planes, mini nukes were used, remote control planes were used, explosives were used, thermite was used, beam weapons were used etc etc. So in fact nothing at all has been achieved!

One of the hijackers paid his tab at one of the bars in Florida just before the hijackings with a credit card issued by the federal government.

No they did not, where do you get that from?

All of those short sales and put options on the airlines stock before 9/11 that were never claimed lead back to the CIA.

Wrong again, it did not

The vans with the bombs that were discovered on 9/11 in or around the New York area

Still wrong, no such vans were found....

The vans that were found to be filled with explosives and Israelis?

Yet another truther lie...

I also know "the hijackers" got a gun on-board because Daniel Lewin was shot

Wrong again, he was stabbed.

Now remember that the technology to take over the piloting of a plane from the ground IN CASE OF A HIJACKING has been available for about twenty five or thirty years about now.

More garbage, such a system did not exist in any US aircraft.

It wouldn't be the first time a plane was suspected of having its controls accessed from outside, and it leading to an "accident" or even a deliberate crash.

Yes it would be, as it is just not possible.

All the public saw were a bunch of evil Muslims terrorists

Well, they are the ones that did it...

I read the OP's post and I dont get the Video. Mistake? Probably!

But she hit the nail on the head with this subject.

Whack...right on the head.

I do not believe the US gov would kill their citizens and THINK they can get away with it.

I too need REAL proof. Unfortunately its all just speculation.

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
Three buildings collapsing at almost free free speed because of fire for the first time in history.

Wrong, WTC 1&2 never fell at free fall speed, all you have to do is look at a video of them, and it is obvious that they are falling nowhere near free fall speed. Also how many other buildings have been hit by high speed jetliners?

Originally posted by nickspm
jfj123:

The real investigation started right after 9/11 and continues to this day. This informal investigation has a much better chance of actually getting to the bottom of things, rather than another investigation sanctioned by co-opted government officials that are really only there to keep the truth just out of view from the general public.

It depends what you mean by "getting to the bottom of things" and what you would want done with that information. In essence, what do you mean by success?

The informal investigation has almost no chance at all of effecting a real change, or of altering people's minds. It has no subpoena power and can really only speculate.

But if you mean that the informal investigation has some chance of self perpetuating itself than I agree with you. Pretty much everything you subsequently mention has no basis in fact or is unproven, and yet is applauded in TM circles and has attained something like common currency.

And yet it's all pretty much nonsense. Or at the very least impossible to prove.

Take Lewin. A passenger said that they thought he'd been shot, but this was unsubstantiated by anyone else. It's likely they made a mistake. Certainly their report exists in absolute isolation, and in some Truther circles is considered to be the product of a voice morphed actor anyway!

Your description of the ATC recording is exaggerated. The Israeli vans remain unsubstantiated. The puffs of smoke don't resemble detonation squibs. The technology to take over a plane from the ground does not exist.

If this is an investigation it isn't one that has a chance of changing anything in any substantial way. But I often think that's probably not the point of it anyway.

Everybody should thank the truthers!
While the people sleep, the enemy plots. We know MUCH more about the enemy than we knew nine years ago. We know that they infiltrate sites like ATS, for instance, to spread lies and ridicule the truth.
The enemy knows that the truthers are having an impact in the realm of public opinion they no longer control. Their propaganda machine, the MSM, is failing and has lost all credibility with an increasing number of people. So, they come here, but you won't see "Peter Jennings" or "Leslie Stahl" as usernames. No credibility.
They attempt to blend in, like agents provocateur, trying to appear "reasonable" while scoffing at any truths uncovered.
But, it ain't working.

Originally posted by Stewie
Everybody should thank the truthers!
While the people sleep, the enemy plots. We know MUCH more about the enemy than we knew nine years ago. We know that they infiltrate sites like ATS, for instance, to spread lies and ridicule the truth.
The enemy knows that the truthers are having an impact in the realm of public opinion they no longer control. Their propaganda machine, the MSM, is failing and has lost all credibility with an increasing number of people. So, they come here, but you won't see "Peter Jennings" or "Leslie Stahl" as usernames. No credibility.
They attempt to blend in, like agents provocateur, trying to appear "reasonable" while scoffing at any truths uncovered.
But, it ain't working.

Just so everyone on ATS can see, this is an example of what happens when a truther gives up. There is not a single argument present. Look closely, no, closer. Do you see it? He hasn't made an argument at all to support his ideas?

Apparently when a truther begins to lose an argument for his case, he resorts to empty claims that all people who fight for the truth that aren't on his side are propaganda agents sent here by the scary government. I'm being paid to come to a site in which people claim highly outlandish claims to post fake reasonable arguments? Honestly, I thought I was being paid to stock coolers and work the grill at food service under my dorms. Maybe I'm just under an illusion, and my secret job is to put doubt into truther minds and deviate them from the true path...

But last time I checked, I wasn't a devil, and you weren't a religious zealot. Stop making claims that people who have opposing views are being paid to be here, and actually support your argument.

Good day to you, sir!

Wrong, WTC 1&2 never fell at free fall speed, all you have to do is look at a video of them, and it is obvious that they are falling nowhere near free fall speed. Also how many other buildings have been hit by high speed jetliners?

A couple of seconds past free fall speed, and that is to be expected due to air resistance.

To have fallen at free fall speed the time would be 9.27 seconds.
So it sould have taken 90 seconds to pancake, the towers fell ten times faster than a gravity collapse.

Quit splitting hairs here.

This topic will never be laid to rest.

Many will die trying...irony.

Twin towers collapsed due to fire.

The other pulled down.

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