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Side Of Hate Served With Your Religion?

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posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:11 AM
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Hi IAM

While I disagree with your ultimate theology/and practical ideals, I respect your very decent personal attitude.

The question is, as always, how to say NO MORE, as you put it. It's impressive, that you are willing to put yourself between two opposing gangs of potential sandbox bullies and most likely get shot at from both sides. And then, when you're out of the way, the sociopaths will go on as if nothing has happened.

I believe, that both you and I are at heart some kind of 'anarchists' (in a positive meaning of the word) and the options can be either the early communist version or an Ayn Rand/Heinlein'ian model, but it seldom functions.

You choose the Gandhi way, I choose a liberal society strong enough to defend itself inwards and outwards. And be it far from me to demean the Gandhi way, it has its very good points; but I believe in the long run, that liberalism pragmatically will be the best bet. One man with a machinegun can tyrannize a thousand pacifists.

So my NO MORE is somewhat more militant than yours, but still peaceful enough to offer a place for everyone, who can play inside the restrictions of a common co-sensus. A co-sensus which allows for "we shall not be moved" as well as fundamentalists shouting "out devil, out" at competing religons.

I am very much aware, that I'm an active participator in recurrent dung-throwing here on this forum. My rather considered opinion is, that while it probably inflames the extremists, it also tells them, that a liberal, ACTIVE, opposition exists. Sadly enough liberalism has had to fight for its existence every step on the way.

When, or if, liberalism establish itself, the Gandhi way will be a realistic option. In my opinion not before.

I will ofcourse meet you on neutral ground on this point, but please remember, that your ideal of ultimate 'goodness' isn't taken as granted by all of us. I'll reserve my opinion as to the existence of a 'god', and 'goodness' being a part of this 'god', until I have some ways of verifying it. In the meantime I stick with the rather strained balance of 'tolerance' as a principle.




posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by Jenisiz
How quickly these Christians and Catholics forget about the Crusades.


Are you saying that the Muslims are having a crusade now?



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:25 AM
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Re Rustami

You're acting from the very weird assumption, that 'christian' scripture and doctrine represents an universal 'truth', from which all further opinions and behaviour can be formulated.

I, and many with me, don't share your platform; something you seem unable to understand or accept.

So before we continue to YOUR homeground (a beloved debate trick by christian) and start on nit-picking details of what Peter, James and Paulus did or said, I'll just remind you, that this is your 'Henry'. Something the rest of us can't see and consider imaginary.

Furthermore Henry has told me, that he doesn't want to be changed into a monopoly world-religion, he considers having me as his disciple more than enough, so in this respect he's different from your imaginary playfriends.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by UmbraSumus

Originally posted by Jenisiz
In my humble opinion, the human race will never reach it's full potential until religion is left buring at the stake.


I use to once think that humanity would be best served if we immediately left the need to worship perceived supernatural entities behind us.

Now i see religiosity in general,like an extremely old oak tree , whose roots have merged with the foundations of civilisation . Any hasty attempt to remove it root and branch, could prove calamitous.



Well the early philosophical wrestlings in this country took a good look at this. Some think this means that religon should have no influnce on governemet....but what really happened is that the church was pushed out into the mix with all of the other influences. Where the church seeks influnce along classical political lines its just another player which it has the right to be.

But really if you want to see a structure supporting some parisitc growth take a look at marxist ideas and their tenders in this country. The church cant and shouldnt collect tax from among the citizenry by law but the marxist
and modern day social capitalists are like a blood sucking monsters in their religion, at the neck and sucking without mercy while many many continue to redirect attention at the "church". Yes never mind that thing around your neck sucking the life out of you america.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Jenisiz
 



How quickly these Christians and Catholics forget about the Crusades.


Please don't delude yourself into thinking anybody on ATS would ever be permitted to forget the crusades, not even for one day.

Thanks for the reminder of the hour. I'd almost completely forgotten it!


Why do folks always forget the Muslim Crusades? They took over Spain and Turkey.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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Re Logarock

you have some very fair and sensible opinions, probably putting you between a rock and a hard place. For the 'saved' of all categories there are only the pigeonhole they have made for you or else you be damned.

Even the IDEA of other options is filtered away by the extremist mind, and I honestly believe, that the concept confuses them. Either you talk from the bible, 'das kapital' or 'mein kampf' or you're from Mars and in need of saving.

It's an interesting situation from a philosophical and psychological perspective, it's almost as if resistance to co-existence is a potential genetic part of mankind.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


homeground? tricks(yeah ok)?

Daniel-
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Matthew-
Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Acts-
He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

Hebrews-
surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Hi IAM

While I disagree with your ultimate theology/and practical ideals, I respect your very decent personal attitude.

The question is, as always, how to say NO MORE, as you put it. It's impressive, that you are willing to put yourself between two opposing gangs of potential sandbox bullies and most likely get shot at from both sides. And then, when you're out of the way, the sociopaths will go on as if nothing has happened.


You are right my friend. If I stand alone between these two forces, they will indeed simply annihilate me, and move on. However, if I am 2000 Man strong between these forces, they will run out of ammo, and have no choice but to surrender to reason. I AM only one. History has proven that one can only do so much. Therefore, I am merely trying to open others eyes that they may see the power of multitudes saying enough is enough.

I am not fighting for liberalism or conservatism, republican or democrat, anarchist or tyrant. I am fighting for all to have their freedom. I do it as one, hoping others will see the wisdom in this, and join me. Peace can only come from peace. If we are not willing to stand for it peacefully, we will only have perpetual war, as each fights to force his own truth on others.

You know I love you no matter what road you take. I just share my view for your consideration.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:25 AM
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Anyone who thinks the Crusades happened a long time ago and are just a dark past in Christianity hasn't been paying attention.

I am convinced that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, soon Iran & Pakistan are just a continuation of the Crusades.
More high tech but still fomented, planned and executed by the same groups that still yield power.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:29 AM
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Dear IAM

at least you'll be under my protective liberal wings, until you find 2000 other suicide candidates.

And even then it may be in vain. You know the weapons industry is good for global economy (or so 'they' say), so the workers would probably just work overtime to make more bullets.

Are you familiar with Aldous Huxley's: "Island".

That's the gloomy pessimism I like.

Completely being off-topic; didn't you once mention belgian beer made by holies?



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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Re Rustami

You wrote:

"Daniel-
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

This is what the rest of us call a totalitarian system. How do you propose to achieve this aim? Preach us to an early death from boredom or at gun-point?



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Anyone who thinks the Crusades happened a long time ago and are just a dark past in Christianity hasn't been paying attention.

I am convinced that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, soon Iran & Pakistan are just a continuation of the Crusades.
More high tech but still fomented, planned and executed by the same groups that still yield power.


My friend,

Does it really matter what we call the atrocities going on over there? Crusade, capitalism, liberation, restoration, does it really matter what fancy name we slap on the murder, destruction, and blood shed?

It does not matter what we call it. We label it to give it what ever justification is most comfortable with us. Or, we label it to give blame, shift it from ourselves, because we all have a responsibility to STOP it. We have a responsibility to stop it overseas, we have a responsibility to stop it in our own country, our own cities, this forum, and our own hearts. So you convinced yourself of the cause my friend, what are YOU doing about it besides shifting the responsibility to others to fix?

Just asking,

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Dear IAM

at least you'll be under my protective liberal wings, until you find 2000 other suicide candidates.

And even then it may be in vain. You know the weapons industry is good for global economy (or so 'they' say), so the workers would probably just work overtime to make more bullets.



Your right, 2000 will simply not do. Therefore, I will shoot for 2,000,000,000 one person at a time. Sure, all I have is this life to work with. But, if in this life I open the eyes of 20, those 20 may open the eyes of 20 more, then by the time I come again, the peace I desire, will be in place. And, even if I never come again, at least my descendants will enjoy it.

Remember, I am not trying to convert, simply trying to get all to love all, regardless of their world view.

If there is a God, this is the kind of world he would want.

If there is no God, this is the kind of world I want.

With love,

Your Brother



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by whaaa
 



written by an athiest if not mistaken-

CHRISTIANS – THE MOST PERSECUTED PEOPLE GROUP ON EARTH

There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith – more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion. Even in supposedly Christian Europe, Christianity has become the most mocked religion, its followers treated with public suspicion and derision... The trouble is that the trendies who normally champion human rights seem to think persecution is fine, so long as it’s only against Christians. While Muslims openly help other Muslims, Christians helping Christians has become as taboo as jingoistic nationalism...On the face of it, the idea of Christians facing serious persecution seems as far-fetched as a carpenter saving humanity. Christianity is the world’s most followed religion, with two billion believers, and by far its most powerful. It is the most popular faith in six of the seven continents, and in both of the world’s two biggest economies, the US and Europe.

jmm.aaa.net.au...



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


back to square one, round and round, same ole same ole, in one ear out the other

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him...self-condemned



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by Rustami
with two billion believers, and by far its most powerful.


Where are my 2 billion believers my friend? WHERE?

If there were 2 billion believers there would be no more blood shed!

Where are they? If they reside in comfortable homes while their Brother sleeps in filth, they are NOT believers in Christs word. If they live in security while their fellow Brothers and Sisters suffer torment, they are NOT believers. If they accept Laws that lead them to a comfortable life of free will while subjecting their Brothers and Sisters to unconscionable restraint of their own, they are NOT believers.

Where are the believers in the word of Christ?

That article speaks of Christians, not believers in the word of Christ, for who so ever believes in his word would not live while others are so oppressed!

The author of that article my friend, is a Liar.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


their shepherds have led them astray and caused them to roam on the mountains. They wandered over mountain and hill and forgot their own resting place.

Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them.

Recently you repented and did what is right in my sight: Each of you proclaimed freedom to his countrymen. You even made a covenant before me in the house that bears my Name. But now you have turned around and profaned my name; each of you has taken back the male and female slaves you had set free to go where they wished. You have forced them to become your slaves again... "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen.....The men who have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces. The leaders of Judah and Jerusalem, the court officials, the priests and all the people of the land who walked between the pieces of the calf

the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai

Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by Rustami
the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother


This is our minds my friend, our minds are free to dream of freedom, and move our will to claim it!


Originally posted by RustamiNow the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Yes, the spirit is within all of us. Christian or not, we all have the spirit of freedom within us. We all desire it more than life itself.


Originally posted by RustamiThese things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai

Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—


But we must move the flesh to stand up and be Kings! No confidence in it, for it may falter. Have confidence in the spirit, for it is eternal. Show me 2 billion believers in the word of Christ, and I will show you 2 Billion Kings, who by the covenant of his word can free this world from this dark oppression.

Better yet, YOU show but one believer, by living what you believe, and you ARE a King. Love all as you love your Christ. Let the least among them be raised to the greatest in your eyes. Be not a divider of Man over trivial mundane devices, but be a uniter in the more glorious idea of Love. See all men as believers in Christ whether they claim it or not, for in their heart is love, and a desire for freedom, and in that is Christ, regardless of the name they call it.

Worship the God, not the name of the God.

Love all, forgive all, and be at peace

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
It's an interesting situation from a philosophical and psychological perspective, it's almost as if resistance to co-existence is a potential genetic part of mankind.



It is....and the truth is there as well. This scary idea of polarization seems to me some toll, most of the time, to reduce any notion that the truth is one side or another. But it is.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.





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