Wellesley, Massachusetts Public School Students Learn to Pray to Allah

reply to post by dannyfal


I don't get your point.
Would you care to elaborate?

The pledge of allegiance is a Theocratic relic in US schools, and since my daughter was a Pagan at ten, she did not want to recite it all the way through. She would rather have said "one nation under the Goddess..."

Surely all posters here know that the god of all three Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) is one and the same, in all respects (although followers of all these three faiths will all try to convince you it is otherwise)?

Already the title in the OP is misleading - as if Allah was some alien idol.
Allah is simply Arabic for God.

A question of semantics... or translation.

reply to post by Kokatsi


well making a child do anything in public schools that really has nothing to do with anything but pushing a "pro america agenda" is rediculous to me in the first place.

to throw in the word God into the mix is taking it one step further...

Surely all posters here know that the god of all three Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) is one and the same, in all respects (although followers of all these three faiths will all try to convince you it is otherwise)?

i mean... thats a bold assumption. and even if your assumption was true, they are still referring to a (religious) concept of god. which is far from being a separation of church and state.

i'm curious as to what happened when your daughter did not want to say the pledge of allegiance? i know that when i did not say it i was sent to the office and reprimanded.

i think the point of my post was they MAKE your children recite something every single day that they are in school, with a clear reference to a higher power. what if i dont want my kid believing in a higher power? what does pledging your allegiance to the US have to do with anything scholarly?

at least the children on the field trip could say "no, i don't want to join in the prayer" without the threat of being in trouble

reply to post by dannyfal


Actually, The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT considered a prayer, but an act of patriotism.

As stated by a Supreme Court Justice:

Chief Justice William Rehnquist's opinion asserts the term "under God" does not endorse or establish religion but it actually asserts that the term merely acknowledges the nation's religious heritage, in particular the role of religion for the Founding Fathers of the United States. Thus, according to the opinion, the Pledge is a secular act rather than an act of indoctrination in religion or expression of religious devotion.

Source

Also, most states have statutes against forcing children to recite the pledge.
You can view a state by state break down here.

I have friends that do not believe in God, they have never had an issue saying "under God" because that is the history of our country. I think that's pretty darn big of them not to deny this county's history and founding principles, very tolerant of them.

So we have taken the bible out of school library's and pushed out Christianity so we can do Field trips to a Muslim mosque?

When it dosent suit their agenda they want religion out of school and when it does they want to teach the flavor of the month.

Tell you what. How about letting the family handle the teaching of religious customs. That way there is no confusion, and when I say confusion I really mean indoctrination.

My son would not want to go and would be upset if he were made to.

But I think it is good for kids to be exposed to other religions.

You could force me with a gun into a position and make me pray - but I firmly believe that unless you could actually change my concept of God and my construct of reality, that it wouldn't matter - I might be in YOUR prescribed position but that's just a body - if I pray to ANY named God with my soul, it will go to the God that I know. 'God' has thousands of names, but you can't ever really know someone else's God if your OWN God concept/appreciation is well formed and strong.

reply to post by OneisOne


why do they need to push patriotism in public schools? i dont send my kid to school to love america

the term merely acknowledges the nation's religious heritage, in particular the role of religion for the Founding Fathers of the United States. Thus, according to the opinion, the Pledge is a secular act rather than an act of indoctrination in religion or expression of religious devotion.

role of religion for the founding fathers? are u frickin kidding me? it is very clear that NONE of the founding fathers wanted religion playing any role in the government of the united states. a supreme court justice said this? thats mind boggling

i'm from MD...

Maryland The state requires all students and “teachers in charge” to stand, face the American flag, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Any student or teacher who wishes to be excused will be excused. Md. Code Ann., Education, § 7-105(c)(3)-(d) (2005).

I was never given the option to be excused... i was belittled in front of the class by the teacher, talked to like i was some sort of trouble maker, and sent out of the class. even if i were allowed to "be excused" i would still be judged and it would be made a big deal out of. its completely unnecessary to put a child through that

i respect your friends decision to say "under god" and they have every right to do that. but i firmly believe some people just go ahead and say it out of FEAR of being ridiculed or getting in trouble.

Originally posted by Nammu
Maybe it'll teach them a bit of tolerance in such an untolerant country.

The USA is "such an untolerant (sic) country"? Damn.. I wonder how you see the rest of the world if you feel that way, must be pretty dark...

reply to post by hadriana


How much exposure is too much? Who decides this?

For everyone saying that its a good thing to expose children to different religions, where were you when they pulled Christianity out of schools? If you are going to "expose" you have to expose to all religions or your not exposing , your indoctrinating.

If I wanted my children to learn about religion in school I would have enrolled them in a Christian academy.

"exposure" is how they phrase it when they want to put you on the spot and make you feel like your not being open minded when it comes to your child's learning. In the end "exposure " starts to look allot like indoctrination.

Originally posted by Truth_Hz
reply to post by sweetliberty

 

WOW, the bigoted undercurrents of this video are phenomenal.

I for one think that children should be exposed to different religions and also the fact that they do not have to believe in any or all. It is called learning.

If they wanted to join in the prayer then so be it, no-one forced them to, it was a choice they made and would probably would have been fun for them.

The video is FULL of mis-interpretation and conveniently cut quotes.

I recently went to the sikh wedding of a friend, I was expected to partake in bowing to the Guru and seperated from my partner (men and women on opposite sides of the room) for the entire ceremony. It was brilliant, a cultural experience which is what these children need.

This video is no doubt made by a "god fearing" "soccer mom" who hates muslims... In fact the more I watch this video the more disgusted I become.

I disagree...

There's a reason why we have separation of church and state. Religion is not to play a part in public education. Be it any religion, it should not be put to students.

Simple as that.

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
So we have taken the bible out of school library's and pushed out Christianity so we can do Field trips to a Muslim mosque?

I live in Florida, we still have the bible in our public school library's. After phoning my son's school (for the third time, lol) I talked to the person in charge of the media center. He said we do if fact have the bible in the library, always have. I asked him if the quran was in the school library. He said no but that they are getting it in there since it is mentioned in some of the class subjects.
As for many of the other things you have said in your posts...starred! Thank you.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Although some posters on ATS want to paint "Christians" as something other than fair minded, I don't see it. I see the majority of Americans in general fair minded and willing to share the same rights and liberty's with American Muslims. (I hate specifying American Muslims, we are all Americans period).

sl

Assalamualaikum,

I'm a muslim and this thread do bring some uneasiness for me.
Am I correct that none of you are muslim ?

There are something wrong with the scenario here and I would like to clear things out.
Fact:
1.If youre non muslim, you should not be invited to pray, because youre not Muslim. Even if you pray, its more like a stretching exercise than a prayer.
2.The separation between male and female during prayer is required by our religion.
(this is what the student should learn by the way).
3.Muslim women is required to pray too, but of course, separated but still with same leader/imam.
4.How these student allowed to pray while not being a muslim is something weird to me. I dont think the imam/prayer leader really allow/want this to happen.

So with these, here are some thing that worth mentioning.

1.This is not indoctrination of anykind, merely lack of knowledge from all parties involved - the muslim inviter , the kids, the teacher and the chaperone.
2.The person who invite the kids to pray clearly doesnt understand of the difference, whoever invite the kids to pray have knowledge problem and should consult the imam/muslim leader.
3.If the kids themselves willing to join praying, then theyre breaking the praying saf/"lines", they should be at the last lines and "exercise" there. Theyre not muslim, they should not even allowed to pray between the saf/lines.
4.If the kids are muslims, then their "saf"/lines preferably be at the last lines, not between the adults (kids lack discipline which might nullify their prayer).
5.If theres any muslim women praying, they should be behind the kids. (Yes I know, Islam is kinda double standard, male take lead but women do have their rights too)
6.Islam doesnt force/lie/trick/bribe you to switch. To become muslim, its from your own initiatives, theres no indoctrination to become muslim. The indoctrination only start when you are already/become a muslim, its never before it.

reply to post by dannyfal

I see your main point now. I agree. As a spritualist rebel, I do not find it agreeable that kids should recite that. I completely agree, it is American public school, so if allegiance is claimed to anything, it should be America - the secular state.

My daughter pretended to say these things but people close to her overheard her saying various other things, goddess among them, when they got to the word "god". Basically, I don't think she was ever noticed. However, a pagan American friend brought this subject to me once and so did an atheist. What if you protested openly that you did not want to submit to theocratic manipulations? You are still a citizen and you have a right toa n education.

The people visiting a Moslem mosque were at least not compelled to say all the stuff if they did not want to.

Point Two: As for the common origin of the three Abrahamic faiths - this is a simple question of education and studying. Simple believers do not know about this, but anyone who starts an elementary study of the roots of Islam will realize that Mohammed was modeling Judaism and Christianity. Prior to establishing his own brand for desert tribes, he frequented synagogues and admired the efficiency of the Jewish faith.
I think all here know that Christianity comes from Judaism and that Jesus prayed to the same god. In fact it is difficult to prove otherwise, bigots go to great lengths to do so though.

Arabic is related to Hebrew. Many of the words come from the same root.
All three religions make unmistakeable references to a "final unity" - and their respective mystics (Sufis, Christian mystics of various determination, Jewish Kabbalists) derive their concepts of god from them. Comparative religion routinely calls them monotheistic, and since all three point back to the desert folks of Abraham, these religions are also called Abrahamic. Abraham, Moses and all the rest of the Jewish prophets are recognized and mentioned in the Quran.

If more people knew these simple facts, bigoted nonsense like mentioning Allah as some "foreign idol of ragheads" would not even see print.

This is one reason why the neoconservative PTB are even more interested in keeping people uneducated.

Now if names would separate one "One God" from another religion's "One God", one could also argue that Elohim and Adonai and Yahawua are three different gods in Judaism.
Since they do not, Allah refers to the same entity. (Not that I would trust this entity much.)

reply to post by RainCloud


Thank you RainCloud!!!

It is good to see a Muslim post on this thread. I have studied Oriental Dance and have had many instructors from Egypt and walked away with nothing but respect for them and their humbleness. Middle Eastern culture is so rich and diverse, I think it is truly fascinating!

Regarding religion, can I ask a question? Why are the men & women separated for prayer? Is it to cause less distraction? I mean no disrespect by asking this question, I'm just looking to gain knowledge.

Thank you!

reply to post by sweetliberty


There is a fine line when it comes to teaching religion. There is just no way of doing it in a fair way without pushing it on children. There are so many religions and customs it would take 8 hours every day and up to the 12th grade and beyond to equally teach about ALL of the religions. Frankly that is not what I want my children going to school for.

I say if you cant do it fairly and equally don't do it at all. There is just no way to expose children to religion in a way that does not indoctrinate them.

There are many religions I just don't want my children exposed to until they are old enough to understand the difference between truth and opinion.

For example, I don't want my children "exposed" to Satanism,Scientology or any other quackery that may screw them up. I know this is an extreme example but if we are truly being fair and just "exposing" it would stand to reason that ALL religions and viewpoints would be fair game. I'm just not interested in going down that road. Id rather just handle that lesson on my own with my child when he/she thinks the time is right .

We all know that religion is %99 faith and 1%crazy. Sometimes the crazy percent is greater. Do we really need to teach these things in school and cause confusion.

I'm all for religious freedom in school. If your kid is Muslim by all means let him or her whip out the rug and pray when needed. There is a difference between religious freedom in school and religious indoctrination.


I want my kids to form their belief structure on their own. I want them to make up their own mind on the way the world works without someone pushing a book in their face and saying "This is the only way". When they are ready and they have questions I want them to come to me and ask and I will give them the most non biased answer possible so to not influence them either way. I see religion as a personal choice that takes time to discover and work out.


Besides , I think this is more about the adults and what they want rather than what the kids want or need. Also I believe that the world is in a frenzy right now to show acceptance for Muslims because of current events and that is not a good reason to start "exposing" children. That is what you call indoctrination. I really believe there is just no fair way to do this and frankly I don't trust a stranger to teach my children about religion.

Originally posted by sweetliberty

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

children are indoctinated and forced to abide by a christian calendar.

I beg to differ.
Christmas can be a jolly fat guy and/or the birth of Christ.

what year is this?

If my son was interested in another religion, I would not prohibit him from it.

you are making the assumption that language and religion have nothing in common. religion is in language, also.

eden [reversed] nude

jew, god's nail , where orthodox jews would only write a g for god intead of the name....
jew g nail ... that i makes no sound...
jew g nal [reversed] langwej

have you heard of something called "alpha and omega"?
alpha bet ... alphabet

just some thoughts i entertain. thanks for responding to my post, and reading it.

virtual hug, handshake, or pat on the back,
et

reply to post by RainCloud

Waalaikumsalam
I'm sure I speak for more than myself when I say thank you for taking the time to share with us where the video is misleading.

Now I can see how it would cause you some concern. I can see how it shows a lack of respect to the true nature of or true protocols of how you pray from the heart.

After reading your post, now more than ever I am questioning the leaders of that particular mosque. I hope you continue to post if you feel the need to share information that seems misleading

Thank you,
sl

Only in America, eh? Wo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0, Islamification... scary. If this wasn't shown, you wouldn't know about it, so you wouldn't care.

Really, this is kinda like getting a new car. When you see the same car on the streets you think that they're all over the place, but it's all in your mind. They've always been there, but you've only started to take notice.

reply to post by RainCloud


You are making more sense than many other call Muslin in ATS so far. You come close to what I believe is done under the rules of the Islamic laws.

Now I been wanting to ask, if a true Islam follower is to put the laws of Islam over anthing else as a believer and follower how do you avoid conflict with US laws.

Is Islam in none Islamic nations evolving? perhaps creating a new branch to be able to put their Islamic laws a step under the current laws of the nation that is not rule by Islam?

It happen to Israeli immigrants in the US when it comes to Israelis in Israel, is a conflict of interest.

reply to post by dannyfal


Florida public schools no longer forces any student to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

After viewing the video tape, and seeing what all was presented, then the following can be commented on:
It is important for children to be exposed to other cultures, as that leads to an understanding of that culture. Have first hand references for such is also a good way for them to see the other side and point of view. This is a good idea, as what is presented and how will affect how the child will think of such for a very long time on that particular culture. However, as this was a school sponsored event, and the school and teachers were responsible for the safety of those students, there are many questions that arrise in my mind about what was viewed. I do understand the importance of faith to many, but I do believe that the parents who were asked to sign the permission slip on this were lied to and the students could have been put into a very dangerous situation. In all of my years, I have never heard of where the chaperones or teachers being seperated from the students. This is irresponsible and reckless on the part of the school district and the adminstration. The parents and all of those who have children should be very concerned about such. What if one of the students had gotten hurt, or disappeared? What would have been the outcry then? And how many other cultural events that have a heavy religious theme to them does the students go and attend in the process?
The students were there to learn about a religion, make no mistake about that, they went there to learn about the history of the Islamic world and by being present for the midday prayers does cross the line legally. All of the parents, and especially the mother who took the video tape, now have grounds to sue the school district and the state for child endangerment along with that her child was forced to participate in a religious event without her knowledge, and that the pretext the school used was an act of fraud, and that the school and the department of education is using the school to promote Islam to the students without the approval of the parents and at the discrimination of the other religions there present in the community.
This is a sticky can of worms that will ultimately end up in the courts, and probably cost the school district, community and the state millions of dollars, as well as, end up forcing another division in an already fractured society. For myself, if I was a parent and I found out about this, that they did have some students participate in prayer at the mosque, that the teachers and chaperones were seperated from the students, would be down at the school and having a principle cowed along with a lawyer as well, knowing that when I got done there, the superindendant would be next to recieve a summons to appear and answer for his actions in a court of law.