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Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by GoldenFleece
reply to post by GoodOlDave
As usual, you spin facts, events and statements into your personal interpretation of them:
...deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day.
Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources.
This is called LYING or PERJURY, not "slipping on banana peels."
I'm going by YOUR OWN POST that they were concealing their incompetence, so it's actually lying AS WELL AS slipping on banana peels, but the fact still remains that it doesn't invalidate the testimony from the other witnesses. How does the Pentagon's embellishment refute Mohammed Atta's girlfriend testifying that he had pilot's licenses from every country he visited, and that he was such a sociopath that he dismembered her kittens after an argument? How does that invalidate a deputy fire chief's testimony that the fires in WTC 7 were out of control, and that there was a three story bulge in the side of the building? How does that invalidate the FBI being so hog tied by legalities and political correctness that it couldn't even share information between its own departments?
The fact remains that after we gave the evidence to our NATO allies showing Bin Laden was behind the attack, they compared it to what their own intelligence services were reporting and they found it credible enough to invoke articke 5 for the first time in history. Please, explain to me how the Pentagon concealing their bumbling changes any of this.
Originally posted by Six Sigma
Just a refresher for the truthers
Originally posted by Six Sigma
1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.
2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.
3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.
4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.
5) Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.
FDR Report Flight 93
ATC Report Flight 93
Flight Path Study Flight 93
6) Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.
7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.
8) The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.
source
9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.
[/quote[
10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Maybe if you knew more about why JFK was assassinated (his opposition to the Vietnam war, secret societies and his threat to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces"), you'd better understand 9/11.
and that's why they'd mindlessly swallow the just plain bad information they're churning out.
.
Did you read my post, or is this selective memory loss?
The debris which was found at 6 miles and 8 miles from the crash site
The debris which was found at 6 miles and 8 miles from the crash site included much more than paper. It included: bone, plastic, parts of the airplane, human remains, burning cushions. I mean, have you actually read what I wrote, or are you simply pulling any old excuse out of thin air without a moment of serious thought?
This is so very typical of debunkers. The intention is not to look at the facts and have a reasonable discussion, it is simply to twist information to avoid the real evidence.
Now, perhaps you would like to explain
a) How that kind of debris could have been carried 6 or 8 miles on a 9 knot light breeze?
b) How debris could have been falling on the lake just minutes after the explosion?
Originally posted by waypastvne
reply to post by wcitizen
Did you read my post, or is this selective memory loss?
Did you read my post, or is this selective Truther facts only?
The debris which was found at 6 miles and 8 miles from the crash site
Indian Lake where most of the debris was found is 1.6 miles from the crash site, Not 6 miles. This is a fact you can not dispute it. The marina is 2.3 miles and New Baltimore is 8 miles. Go to google earth and check it for your self. I posted a photo, Did you look at it? The debris fields are strait down wind. This is not a coincidence. Here it is again,
The debris which was found at 6 miles and 8 miles from the crash site included much more than paper. It included: bone, plastic, parts of the airplane, human remains, burning cushions. I mean, have you actually read what I wrote, or are you simply pulling any old excuse out of thin air without a moment of serious thought?
There were no human remains found at the lake. The bone found there was not human. There was nothing found at the crash site that could not be carried there by the wind. the only aircraft parts found at the lake were carbon fiber / honeycomb. Below is a drawing showing the parts of the plane made from carbon fiber. Notice the tail is made of carbon fiber.
Carbon fiber shatters on impact.
Photo of carbon fiber with honeycomb laminate.
Descriptions of the carbon fiber and honeycomb appear in numerous witness statements.
"Investigators crawled through the debris field, bagging bolts and bone fragments. They found chunks of seat cushion foam and honeycombed sound insulators. Then a shoelace, some shirt buttons, and a wedding ring."
The resin in carbon fiber is flammable and will burn away leaving the carbon cloth.
Below is a perfect description carbon fiber cloth; she just has the burnt and unburnt reversed.
'And there was some black webbing -- a lot of people found that," she said. The webbing, flexible where it hadn't burned, crisp where it had, was from insulation lining the belly of the jetliner.'
All evidence found at the debris fields indicate 93 crashed intact and the debris was carried down wind.
This is so very typical of debunkers. The intention is not to look at the facts and have a reasonable discussion, it is simply to twist information to avoid the real evidence.
This is so very typical of truthers. The intention is not to look at the facts period.
Now, perhaps you would like to explain
a) How that kind of debris could have been carried 6 or 8 miles on a 9 knot light breeze?
Wind is stronger at altitude than ground level. A 9 knot wind at ground level is normal 12 knots at 1000 ft.That's 15 MPH. .
b) How debris could have been falling on the lake just minutes after the explosion?
At15 MPH. it would take 6 minutes to travel from the crash site to the lake. Tumbling paper is flying during the flat part of its tumble. If it is tumbling with the wind it travels faster than the wind, If it is tumbling against the wind it travels slower. Look at the folded paper @ 1:50 in the video it is fully flying. As long as it is pointed down wind its airspeed is added to its ground speed.
I have looked very closely at all the evidence from flight 93 i can find nothing out of place.
edit on 26-9-2010 by waypastvne because: (no reason given)
Cabin pressure - NORMAL. Hydraulics - NORMAL. Cargo fire - NORMAL. Smoke - NORMAL. Engines - RUNNING. Engine RPM (N1) 70% . Fuel pressure - NORMAL. Engine vibration - LO. Wind direction - WEST. Wind speed - 25 kts. Pitch angle - 40 deg down. Airspeed - 500 kts. Heading - 180 deg. Roll angle - 150 deg right. AoA - 20 deg negative
From 10:00 to 10:02 there were four distinct control column inputs that caused the airplane to pitch nose-up (climb) and nose-down (dive) aggressively. During this time the airplane climbed to about 10,000 feet while turning to the right. The airplane then pitched nose-down and rolled to the right in response to flight control inputs, and impacted the ground at about 490 knots (563 mph) in a 40 degree nose-down, inverted attitude. The time of impact was 10:03:11.
Originally posted by CynicalM
I have yet to see a true OS agreeing thread so I guess the challenge has NOT been accepted...
waypastvne Has done an exceptional job responding to your post.
Originally posted by Six Sigma
waypastvne Has done an exceptional job responding to your post. I couldn't have done it better myself.
Here is another map of the debris field. Once again note the wind directing for that time.
How many witnesses saw a fire on the plane as it crashed? How many saw smoke? If you bothered to read the FDR data, you would have seen that the plane was operating :
Cabin pressure - NORMAL. Hydraulics - NORMAL. Cargo fire - NORMAL. Smoke - NORMAL. Engines - RUNNING. Engine RPM (N1) 70% . Fuel pressure - NORMAL. Engine vibration - LO. Wind direction - WEST. Wind speed - 25 kts. Pitch angle - 40 deg down. Airspeed - 500 kts. Heading - 180 deg. Roll angle - 150 deg right. AoA - 20 deg negative
Or the NTSB Flight Path Study:
From 10:00 to 10:02 there were four distinct control column inputs that caused the airplane to pitch nose-up (climb) and nose-down (dive) aggressively. During this time the airplane climbed to about 10,000 feet while turning to the right. The airplane then pitched nose-down and rolled to the right in response to flight control inputs, and impacted the ground at about 490 knots (563 mph) in a 40 degree nose-down, inverted attitude. The time of impact was 10:03:11.
There is no evidence to support the plane being shot down.
edit on 26-9-2010 by Six Sigma because: (no reason given)
You stomp your feet wanting "absolute, irrefutable confirmation".....
Originally posted by vipertech0596
reply to post by wcitizen
The sworn statements of the airline personnel who dealt with him that day. Not to mention, his dad now takes pride in his son's actions.
Originally posted by wcitizen
Nor is there any evidence to prove the evidence wasn't tampered with, by the same government and its agencies who lied about WMD.
With the exception of a partial transcript of Flight 93's CVR, the contents of the black boxes remained unknown to the public until August of 2006, when the long-hidden NTSB Reports including flight path and other studies of the commandeered flights were obtained on the basis of a Freedom of Information request.
Why the 5 year delay in making this information available?
Now, if you had bothered to read the concerns of the pilots seeking the truth of 9/11, you would be aware of the inconsistancies they have raised:
Yes,lol, I have been doing that on purpose, because that is what the debunkers do CONSTANTLY to truthers. They constantloy stamp their fists on the table like spoilt children and demand proof, proof, proof, proof.
The personal attacks are such a common tactic used by OS supporters, and frankly, though tedious, are of no consequence to me. I confess to have indulged in this myself a little on this thread, kind of trying to get into the 'role' of typical OBS trusters abusive mindset. But, you know what, I find it pollutes my mind. Don't like it.
If you think that this continual puerile hurling of insults will stop me or any other genuine truthers, you are living in cloud cuckoo land, along with those who concocted the OBS and thought they would get away with it.
Until then, those who defend the OBS and those who are paid to disrupt online discussions between truthers will continue to try to squash, discredit and distort. They will continue to assert, illogically, that the OBS and MSM statements prove that the OBS is true, and that the truth seekers are dishonest, incompetent and deranged.
Originally posted by wcitizen
Those airline personnel who made those sworn statements. They actually knew MA before that date, so they could swear that the man they saw in the airport was indeed the genuine MA?
Or did they swear that a man, calling himself MA, arrived at the airport to board a flight?
Originally posted by wcitizen
Pilots for 9/11 Truth, an international organization of pilots and aviation professionals
Originally posted by Six Sigma
Originally posted by wcitizen
Nor is there any evidence to prove the evidence wasn't tampered with, by the same government and its agencies who lied about WMD.
Sorry, wcitizen are you are looking for me to prove something didn't happen? You and the truthers have created, without evidence, a fantasy. It is up to you to prove it.
With the exception of a partial transcript of Flight 93's CVR, the contents of the black boxes remained unknown to the public until August of 2006, when the long-hidden NTSB Reports including flight path and other studies of the commandeered flights were obtained on the basis of a Freedom of Information request.
Why the 5 year delay in making this information available?
Now, if you had bothered to read the concerns of the pilots seeking the truth of 9/11, you would be aware of the inconsistancies they have raised:
Yes,lol, I have been doing that on purpose, because that is what the debunkers do CONSTANTLY to truthers. They constantloy stamp their fists on the table like spoilt children and demand proof, proof, proof, proof.
The personal attacks are such a common tactic used by OS supporters, and frankly, though tedious, are of no consequence to me. I confess to have indulged in this myself a little on this thread, kind of trying to get into the 'role' of typical OBS trusters abusive mindset. But, you know what, I find it pollutes my mind. Don't like it.
If you think that this continual puerile hurling of insults will stop me or any other genuine truthers, you are living in cloud cuckoo land, along with those who concocted the OBS and thought they would get away with it.
Until then, those who defend the OBS and those who are paid to disrupt online discussions between truthers will continue to try to squash, discredit and distort. They will continue to assert, illogically, that the OBS and MSM statements prove that the OBS is true, and that the truth seekers are dishonest, incompetent and deranged.
You and all the other truthers have been asked to refute the evidence I showed twice now in this thread. Not a peep! This is why we try to take baby steps with truthers. We start with the 10 points and take them from there.