9/11 OS Challenge..

Number 6 SIMGMA6- Addressing the "photo" by Val McClatchey- a)she reports a flight path for the"plane" that is going the opposite direction from the OS. b)Her "mushroom cloud" photo has obvious problems:not in the right place, her story about how she came to take it, lack of your ""wind" blowing the cloud. c) She reportly was almost knocked off her couch by a "violent explosion" ,but somehow had the presence of mind to grab her camera(readily available) and run outside to photograph a "mushroom cloud" 5 seconds after impact. I could go on and on with all the problems with her "story", but I mentioned the main problems.

9) Personal effects of the hijackers: Yeah, I love the totally clean and folded red "muslim' bandana. I have a half dozen of these and they're sold everywhere. Mom used to wear one over her working in the gardedn/yard when I was little. Muslim bandana.....lmao!! I'm assuming you seen the picture of the one found at Shanksville Sigma? Did they launder and press it before the FBI photoed it?

Originally posted by freedom12
Addressing the "photo" by Val McClatchey- a)she reports a flight path for the"plane" that is going the opposite direction from the OS.

Did she see the plane? From what I read, she was sitting down when she heard the explosion. Try reading the eye witness reports. That's EYE witness. Then compare them to the FDR, ATS, and Radar data reports.

b)Her "mushroom cloud" photo has obvious problems:not in the right place, her story about how she came to take it, lack of your ""wind" blowing the cloud.

Really? Well, can you please show me some scientific evidence to back this up? Spare me a link to Killtowns website. He is far from a scientist. Read this article that mentions this anti-semite and how he harassed a woman.

www.post-gazette.com...

c) She reportly was almost knocked off her couch by a "violent explosion" ,but somehow had the presence of mind to grab her camera(readily available) and run outside to photograph a "mushroom cloud" 5 seconds after impact. I could go on and on with all the problems with her "story", but I mentioned the main problems.

I don't want this thread hijacked by Val McClatchey haters. If you have scientific evidence to prove the photo was a fake. Post it!

Originally posted by freedom12
9) Personal effects of the hijackers: Yeah, I love the totally clean and folded red "muslim' bandana. I have a half dozen of these and they're sold everywhere. Mom used to wear one over her working in the gardedn/yard when I was little. Muslim bandana.....lmao!! I'm assuming you seen the picture of the one found at Shanksville Sigma? Did they launder and press it before the FBI photoed it?

Did you happen to read about flight 1771? This was a crash back in the 80's. During the investigation of this high speed nose down crash, they found the suicide note from the perp, written on an airsickness bag.

You see, some things survive airplane crashes, and some do not.

So when someone responds to your list of ten with tough questions/statements, you either a) hypothesize about wind and plumes, b) bring up some Killtown guy I never heard of, without expaning obvious problems with the lady who took the picture, c) diversion tactics again to explain a perfectly clean and folded, red 'Muslim" bandana. So much for you having any proof of anything I questioned on your magical list of ten.

Originally posted by freedom12
So when someone responds to your list of ten with tough questions/statements, you either a) hypothesize about wind and plumes, b) bring up some Killtown guy I never heard of, without expaning obvious problems with the lady who took the picture, c) diversion tactics again to explain a perfectly clean and folded, red 'Muslim" bandana. So much for you having any proof of anything I questioned on your magical list of ten.

a) was there a plume? - yes and witnessed by many. Were there 8 MPH winds that day. -yes
These are two facts that can be easily verified. Please, don't take my word for it.

b) Killtown is an idiot- good news that you are not into his garbage.Once again.I must insist thatu provide any scientific evidence that the photo is a fake.

c) I am not sure what "proof" you are looking for. If you are suggesting the bandanna is a prop..or a fake, this would be something for you to prove. I gave you a perfect example of items that survive air plane crashes. I'm sorry you can't see the reality of this.

Now, do you have any proof that 93 did not crash in Shanksville?

The problem with this thread is that I do not know enough about the hijackers to say for certain what happened there. The evidence appears to point to them being real, but without a doubt, no one can deny that the towers were hit and were on fire. I believe that the evidence supports that the towers collapsed because the planes crashed into them. Should I then spend hours putting together a thread that tries to explain every detail of the day's events, when all that a person really needs to do is prove that the conspiracy theorists are wrong in their ideas of what happened? I mean, I see it every single time that I post anything that supports any part of the OS. A part of my post gets attacked and the rest is left to figuratively blow away in the wind. No matter how much evidence is posted, I honestly think it won't matter to anyone. They'll just say 200,000+ highly credible people are lying and that the 1200 or so people that support their ideas are right.

Honestly, if I get the time out of college to do this extremely difficult task of appeasing truthers, then I will do it. I cannot prove the hijackers though, just the collapse, and if that's not enough then screw you if you'll pardon my French. I believe a conspiracy is possible with the hijackers, just not the collapse. Call me a half-questioning OSer.

reply to post by Varemia

They'll just say 200,000+ highly credible people are lying and that the 1200 or so people that support their ideas are right.

You really believe there are only 1200 credible people questioning the OS ??

Well I will not comment on your "200,000+ highly credible people" then...

The challenge is still there, unanswered so far.....

Why don't you debunkers just ignore the truth movement? Are you afraid that the american people are so stupid that if you didn't counter truther arguements then the american people would start to believe in the myriad of conspiracy theories? Doesn't a wise man avoid getting into arguements with fools? You debunkers can not have it both ways: Either the 911 conpiracy theories are tripe and hence not worthy of attention or their is something to them.

What has made me suspicious of the government more than anything else is the behavior of the debunkers. If the government would have given a plausible and definitive explaination of the events of that day.there would be no debate today. By debating the truthers you actually give them credibility.

Truther numbers seem to be growing. Iran's President talked a little about 911 conpiracy theories in the UN just the other day.

Time wounds all heals. And, according to Dante at least, the deepest pits of hell are reserved for traitors.

So, debunkers, ignore the truth movement! Display integrity. I dare you!

Originally posted by Varemia
The problem with this thread is that I do not know enough about the hijackers to say for certain what happened there. The evidence appears to point to them being real, but without a doubt, no one can deny that the towers were hit and were on fire. I believe that the evidence supports that the towers collapsed because the planes crashed into them. Should I then spend hours putting together a thread that tries to explain every detail of the day's events, when all that a person really needs to do is prove that the conspiracy theorists are wrong in their ideas of what happened? I mean, I see it every single time that I post anything that supports any part of the OS. A part of my post gets attacked and the rest is left to figuratively blow away in the wind. No matter how much evidence is posted, I honestly think it won't matter to anyone. They'll just say 200,000+ highly credible people are lying and that the 1200 or so people that support their ideas are right.

Honestly, if I get the time out of college to do this extremely difficult task of appeasing truthers, then I will do it. I cannot prove the hijackers though, just the collapse, and if that's not enough then screw you if you'll pardon my French. I believe a conspiracy is possible with the hijackers, just not the collapse. Call me a half-questioning OSer.

The US government has all the resources in the world. Truthers for the most part are individuals groping around in the dark with very little resources. Truthers can be wrong a million times and it adds up to nothing. But if the big, bad, government of the US is wrong even just once it weakens the whole structure and credibility of their arguements.

Originally posted by Deuteronomy 23:13
What has made me suspicious of the government more than anything else is the behavior of the debunkers. If the government would have given a plausible and definitive explaination of the events of that day.there would be no debate today. By debating the truthers you actually give them credibility.
...
So, debunkers, ignore the truth movement! Display integrity. I dare you!

I cannot fathom the logic being used here. How is it by disagreeing with you and pointing out where you get things wrong, i would be increasing your credibility and sacrificing my integrity?

I am trying to help people understand the situation as best possible and to achieve their goals. I am against lies, misunderstandings, and self promotion ala Alex Jones.

I feel that my integrity is intact.

reply to post by exponent

I cannot fathom the logic being used here. How is it by disagreeing with you and pointing out where you get things wrong, i would be increasing your credibility and sacrificing my integrity?

Well I guess its like this..

I joined ATS and you can easily see by my threads and posts that my interests are many and varied...

Then there are some, I wont say you although you only started 2 threads and both pertain to 9/11, that seem to just join ATS to enter 9/11 threads and debunk or ridicule...

The point being, if the OS is such iron clad fact, backed up with credible evidence, then why bother???

Seems to me these debunkers would have better ways to spend their time than joining ATS just to argue a fact...

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by Deuteronomy 23:13
What has made me suspicious of the government more than anything else is the behavior of the debunkers. If the government would have given a plausible and definitive explaination of the events of that day.there would be no debate today. By debating the truthers you actually give them credibility.
...
So, debunkers, ignore the truth movement! Display integrity. I dare you!

I cannot fathom the logic being used here. How is it by disagreeing with you and pointing out where you get things wrong, i would be increasing your credibility and sacrificing my integrity?

I am trying to help people understand the situation as best possible and to achieve their goals. I am against lies, misunderstandings, and self promotion ala Alex Jones.

I feel that my integrity is intact.

I am not surprised that you can not fathom the logic.

The government did such a great job explaining 911 that it needs the likes of exponent to re-explain it over and over again.

Originally posted by CynicalM
The point being, if the OS is such iron clad fact, backed up with credible evidence, then why bother???

Well to be honest I bother because I enjoy the debate for short periods. Eventually endless repetition and 9 year old news stories used as evidence get tiring, but in general I come here because I'm interested in debate.

I do read other forums, General Conspiracies and Space Exploration mostly, but I have never been much of a social poster. I do review 'top threads' from time to time, but without meaning to be offensive, some of them are truly out of this world crazy.

Seems to me these debunkers would have better ways to spend their time than joining ATS just to argue a fact...

I try to answer questions as quickly as possible, but if have other things to do I won't be posting here. I have a varied work schedule and a lot of side projects going on. A lot of these projects require time to process in which I can post here

Originally posted by Deuteronomy 23:13
I am not surprised that you can not fathom the logic.

It doesn't surprise me that you cannot explain it.

Originally posted by Deuteronomy 23:13
The government did such a great job explaining 911 that it needs the likes of exponent to re-explain it over and over again.

Not really, I haven't had to do any special research, just read the papers and apply some rudimentary logic. That's all it takes, the reason I end up repeating myself is that people find it hard to read 10,000 pages or they have bizarre beliefs they refuse to give up.

reply to post by exponent


Mate, you only care about one forum and only post in them...

Cheers

Originally posted by CynicalM
Mate, you only care about one forum and only post in them...

Cheers

No, I only post in this forum as Phage is for example much better than me at Space Exploration etc. Perhaps you need to re-read my post:

Originally posted by exponent
I do read other forums, General Conspiracies and Space Exploration mostly, but I have never been much of a social poster. I do review 'top threads' from time to time, but without meaning to be offensive, some of them are truly out of this world crazy.

reply to post by exponent

reply to post by exponent


I read your post...Nothing changes...

1am here, sleep time..have fun...

Originally posted by Six Sigma

Originally posted by freedom12
9) Personal effects of the hijackers: Yeah, I love the totally clean and folded red "muslim' bandana. I have a half dozen of these and they're sold everywhere. Mom used to wear one over her working in the gardedn/yard when I was little. Muslim bandana.....lmao!! I'm assuming you seen the picture of the one found at Shanksville Sigma? Did they launder and press it before the FBI photoed it?

Did you happen to read about flight 1771? This was a crash back in the 80's. During the investigation of this high speed nose down crash, they found the suicide note from the perp, written on an airsickness bag.

You see, some things survive airplane crashes, and some do not.

Aw, c'mon, you know very well that there was nowhere near the same degree of fire with flight 1771. The report on the 1771 crash describes: ." Unburnt paper flew everywhere as small aircraft fuel fires burned on the ground".

Since you are familiar with flight 1771, I'm surprised you didn't think it was relevant to mention this piece of information.

You say the debris which was found 8 miles from the crash site can be explained by taking into account the explosion, the wind speed, etc., suggesting that you believe the debris was carried upwards during the explosion and then carried by the wind over a distance of up to 8 miles. If this was the case, even with very strong winds, one would expect to see a continuous trail of debris originating from the crash site itself. This was not observed.

The windspeed was 9 knots that day, in Shanksville, ie. a light breeze. It is impossible that this could have carried the debris 8miles. Your suggestion defies the law of gravity. This is even more the case when you take into account the kind of debris involved.

Here's what a local eyewitness said:

"John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake until they traveled to the lake shore Wednesday afternoon.

By Wednesday morning, crash debris began washing ashore at the marina. Fleegle said there was something that looked like a rib bone amid pieces of seats, small chunks of melted plastic and checks" In a community 8 miles from the crash site, local residents reported books, clothing and airplane parts as part of the debris.

Also, ground witnesses saw debris falling from the sky, miles from the crash, within moments of the crash.

It is ludicrous to insist that this kind of debris could have been carried eight miles on al light breeze, and impossible that any debris foating on the breeze could have travelled several miles in a few moments.The height of the explosion cannot explain this. . So this part of the NTSB story is inconsistent with the evidence.

Then of course there's the fan, found intact, 100ft from the point of impact, and a large engine, also pretty intact, more than 200 yards from the crash.