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Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

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posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


No most women do. Not all. Just as alot of men have paternal instincts. Here is a thought, try not to generalize people based off of your experience. You might be able to debate better if you did that.




posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


Wow nice attacking the person. No I do not need to know your background nor care too. But I put mine up there since I know that my position would be attack just as you are doing. SO you can continue attacking the way you are and not read it and keep making a fool out of your self. OR you can read my posts and background, and then tell me how I am letting my experience cloud my logic and we can continue the debate. I have not once personally attacked you, yet you have done it 3 times now. Seems to me like your position is weak and you need to personally attack me as a person instead of my arguments. As I said before that is your right. But do not complain if people think you are intellectually and morally bankrupt as well as sexist. YOUR CHOICE again.


Why do you keep talking to me? I already told you , you were pissing me off, you responded that you dont care, I put you in your place, and now your contridicting yourself AGAIN by trying to make look like a fool for "attacking" you and then turn around and make yourself look like a bigger fool by "attacking" me... My position is strong, you know how I know?? The courts feel the same way... Good luck with your wishful thinking...



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by packinupngoin
 


Please explain how so? Does she not know possible outcomes also? She has all the power (his power is to not have sex) yet she has an out and he doesn't. What happened to with great power comes great responsibility?





See I am not the only one who doesnt understand your thought process!!



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by packinupngoin
 


So the woman cannot say “if you are not wearing protection we are not doing it”? The woman has no blame what so ever? The woman can decide to spread her legs just as the man can decide where to stick it.

Both parties in a perfect world would chose to be responsible for their actions, but we live in the real world and that does not happen. The woman have a way to opt out of parenthood even if the man says he would take the child and raise it. The man gets no say what so ever, aside from the choice to have sex. A woman can chose to have sex, chose to take a pill the next morning, have an abortion, put the kid up for adoption, or keep the child. The man gets what choice? Oh yeah whether to have sex or not, but the woman has that choice as well.

Raist



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 

LOL wow. So the courts have never made a mistake, they are never wrong that is perhaps the funniest thing I have heard on this topic.


Why do I keep talking to you because I can. You can not shut me up just as I can't shut you up. Sure you can hit ignore if you want. In fact knock yourself out.

If you put me in your place as you said then I wouldn't still have the exact same stance as I do, nor would I keep talking.



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:07 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


perhaps if you stopped the attacking, thought about things from outside you own view and thought about what people are saying instead of having on these men only want to control women or not be responsible you can. That is the whole reason for debate. Whats even worse about you is you make NO effort to understand the other point of view at all. That is your choice again.



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by mayertuck
 


No that goes back to how stupid u are sir, as for RAIST, the women have the EXTRA responsibility of carrying the child so we do have the EXTRA options. Its as simple as that really... and yes I do feel bad for the guys who want the child and the women decides to have an aborition that is not cool, but does a man really want to be with a woman who would go and do that knowing he would be there to help? The man would be better off finding an a REAL woman and not a scared little girl. Secondly, in todays world lets stay relevant to todays day and age, I dont know how old you guys are but I am fairly young, 24, And from the time I was in highschool dealing with my first experince of the whole pregnancy issue, *Not mine but my bestfriend for several years* The guy *17* beat her up *15* and made her miscarry because he wasnt ready! Nobody but us knew she was pregnant because she was to scared to tell her parents. Look at the single mother rates in america... look at how irresponsibile MOST men in TODAYS world are??! Look at how many men are in prison instead of being with the woman and getting a real job instead of dealing drugs and helping with the family... The truth is that many young men are influenced by things such as rap and being "GANGSTER" and think that it makes them look "hard" by being irresponsible, I knew this one guy that had 5 kids by 4 women... HOW IRRESPONSIBLE is that? And you think it should be ok for those kinds of guys to WALK away physically and financially from a child who is innocent in all of this? It takes TWO incomes to take care of a child ....thats all I've got to say..



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


perhaps if you stopped the attacking, thought about things from outside you own view and thought about what people are saying instead of having on these men only want to control women or not be responsible you can. That is the whole reason for debate. Whats even worse about you is you make NO effort to understand the other point of view at all. That is your choice again.


and neither do u... so why call me out when you are doing the EXACT same thing?



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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To say a girl can freely have an abortion, (which is the basis of this "male abortion" argument) is not quite correct. Sure, abortion should be available to all women, nad a large percentage of women do use it. And, in this overcrowded world, it would be silly to stop them. However, some women have such strong parenting instincts they could not possibly go through with an abortion. In this case, unplanned pregnancies will result in babies, and these babies need to know their fathers. It's been found that even when children are adopted and loved and well cared for, they still often feel a need to know their blood parents.
reply to post by Kailassa
 


So you get pregnant by a guy who does not want a kid...and you don't want to take his opinion in to account but want to keep the baby...is that a bit not self centered.........But yes I see your point females in general are gravitating towards having baby's, its there nature...so in a way I get what your saying when you say they are not so free to chose to get rid of the baby...as the male types.....So ultimately this just comes down to a personal issue between the mother and father.... And if its not solved on a personal level.....then it will not be solved at all.....the government will just go with what kind of works, and not always in the best interest of mother, father, or even child.



So a child can arise, and children should have rights. I believe the resposibility to meet those rights lies on both the creators of the child, if a child arises from the union.


Interesting concept.... unfortunately its not that simple, nor would most would understand that concept.



So do you mean some women are having sex outside marriage much more often than men? This would mean fewer women than men are having sex outside marriage. Or do you mean more women than men are having sex outside marriage? This would mean that the women who do are, on the average, having fewer partners than the men who do. Either way it's irrelevant, and generalising this way with a complete lack of evidence indicates a degree of misogyny.


More women in general have more sex then men, I don't know how to explain that anymore simply...So here goes regardless of gender when a man wants sex its usually with a women, so thereby its with a woman.....the catch is its much easier for women to get men to sleep with them, then it is for men to get women to sleep with them because of lots of factors not good looking, no moneys, cant afford to buy stuff, etc....So more women in general sleep around with men regardless if they are married or not because the only thing they have to worry about is pregnancy and even though the pill and all that is not 100% full proof it works more often then not.... I'm not saying that men don't sleep around Its just women do the same thing to.... Basically a couple of dudes sleeps around with all the women that sleep around, because they can afford it or are good looking or whatever. So lets say some player or whatever sleeps around with 5 girls in a week........Who then is more promiscuous the male that slept around or the females that slept around.... Going by the numbers game its the females, more females sleep around in larger numbers for any number of reasons with the dudes that sleep around...they just think that they don't sleep around as much as the male because he sleeps around with more girls, do you see, it its a perspective thing, I'm just going by the numbers, that I have seen..... Sorry but I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this. I might be biased because I am seeing it from a male perspective, but its just that "what I see" so in the end whatever, it don't matter.



Part of what you imply here is that women need to consider the consequences before sex. I'd go further and say they need to consider these consequences long before getting into a position where sex may happen. Some of the behaviour that takes place these days is downright disgusting. However the same needs to apply to men. I believe this whole concept of a right to screw who you want with no consequences damages the whole fabric of society. Has everyone forgotten how to treat others with respect and play solitaire if the need arises? It's not as if any contraception gives 100% protection against STDs or pregnancy.


Agree and its just that there are big consequences when ever you choose to have sex.......So ultimately I really have no pity for these guys and girls who complain...about the consequences of there actions. In fact it just seems obvious to me...but thats just me.



However, children have been born out of wedlock right through history, and always will be unless (God forbid) all children are sterilised. These children need parenting, and both the people making the child share equal responsibility.


Interesting concept but your preaching to the choir..........These little creature called "children" are even more stupid then the grown versions...no way in hell they can survive, if there is no one to help them.



The fact that some men get off scot free because the women has an abortion is irrelevant. Having an abortion is not getting off scot free for a women. It's a terrible decision, generally made because it's the lesser of two evils, not because it's something the woman wants. It can be painful, it can damage the woman's body, and it can leave her emotionally scarred.


And thats why this is a personal problem and will be different for everybody out there...even if two things remain a constant...a child is born...or not born...might want to talk about this with your mate..and ask what does he think about having children. If one says "yes" and the other "no" might want to hold off on the whole thing.




edit on 19-9-2010 by galadofwarthethird because: none



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by StarrGazer25

Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


And your point is exactly what? It is a choice. A likely consequence of ones actions. Once again being responsible for your actions. If you know that a course of action that has been decided on could result in a negative experience then you better be prepared for that experience. Just as if a man has sex he should be prepared for that possiblily. Where it stands today, women do not have to deal with that responsibility if they do not want to. As I said before and will say again, thats where equality comes in. Is it fair no its not. Perhaps as others have said before if she doesn't want an unwanted pregnancy knowing its consequences she should not have sex. Now how does that feel? Is that fair or right? No it isn't but that is the heart of the matter. You want to whine about negative consequence, fine that is your right. Never the less it is a choice. As I said before if a female didn't have the right to abort, then I wouldn't take this stance. I would fully say the man needs to be there and pay. Since the female has an out, the man should to. Plain and simple. You want equal, it needs to be equal. If you don't want equal quit harping on it about every other thing in life. And no I am not specifically referring to you.

As for why I am on here, that should be obvious. I see an enormous disparity that affect not only my rights but those of my sons and daughter. I care for their future and their lives. Please do not come at me like I am the bad guy here. Read about me, read about the things I have gone through. I am trying to solve a problem that many men and some women feel is a huge problem. Just as when first wave feminism came about many women and a few men cared about.


As hotbakedtater said before, blame the creator for making that unfair.



Look dude, this will be my last post to you, because of MY OPINION OF YOUR IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY, and quite frankly your PISSING ME OFF!!! You keep repeating "being responsible for your actions" and then contridicting yourself and then flip floping your statements to suit your own view!! If a MAN gets a woman pregnant, we all know we can not impregnant ourselves, then the MAN needs to take responsibility for his actions WHEATHER HE WANTED TO OR NOT, sure did WANT to have sex with her didnt he, if a child is concieved how is taking responsibility for ones action just walking away because the guy didnt want the child??? IF your son knocked up a girl and he didnt want it and she had the child would your advice to him be, "Ignore her, she'll go away, all she wants is your money... BLAH BLAH BLAH.... Ur ridiculous! Go somewhere else with that BS! Perhaps as you have said, if A MAN doesn't want an unwanted pregnancy knowing its consequences HE should not have sex. Right back at ya! Or how would you feel if someone knocked up your daughter and just walked away and didnt help pay for anything? No Diapers, clothes, formula, Would you then condem your daughter as a whore for not protecting herself? Would you condem her for wanting to have an abortion because the man walked away and she is now having to deal with what very well could of been a WANTED pregnancy but because the guy turned his back like a COWARD she has now changed her mind and it has now become an UNWANTED pregnancy...... Think about that!


So let me repost this for you, soak it in, think about it and then tell me how you would advise your son and daughter in this situtation I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW what you would tell them......



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


And women are just as bad and irresponsible. While those experieince you have had are bad. There are just as many guys who have been put in bad situations by women. It goes both ways. Yea today's society is messed up that is why we are debating this in an effort to get things to change. I agree a man would be better off finding a real woman to be with, just as a woman should find a real man. See it still cuts both ways. It it WRONG to blame only one half of the equation. As for your proof of 5 kids with 4 women, and I know women with 7 kids by 5 different dads. Or in the case of my ex wife who has 3 by 3 different men, and will most likely be on a 4th by another man.

As for me I am 33 and a father of 4 kids and I have SOLE custody of my 2 sons from my previous marriage, a stepson with my current marriage and a daughter from my current marriage. As I said star, if you really care about this issue read my background. I am not the person you want to portray me to be. If you want to continue then that is ok with me nothing I can do about it.



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


i would love to..If my son got a girl pregnant, I would expect him to step up and deal with the consequences of his actions. If my daughter got pregnant I would expect her to step up and deal with the consequences of her actions. In both case have the child, be in their life and raise the child.

Now those are simply my wishes and expectations, can I make any of my kids do what I want when it comes to a situation like that no I can not.

Regardless of their individual decisions I will still love and support them in it.

And if the guy wasn't around that would not stop me from wanting my daughter to be responsible for her actions. Yea its hard. and she would have help just as if my son's got a girl pregnant.


edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


That responsibility thing goes both ways. Again, I would like to see both sides take responsibility. As for the guy staying with the girl who has an abortion, I never said he should stay with her. He could take the child and raise it without her in his life at all. I know males that do this.

As for your friend I hope she was brave enough to press charges so that he got manslaughter for causing what he did. That man is no real man but an abuser who deserves to be placed in an area away from society.

Back to the issue of responsibility though (speaking only of consensual sex), the woman can take as much responsibility as a man to either chose not to have sex, use all forms of birth control available for a woman, or chose a better partner to sleep with and not jump into the sack before they know who the guy really is. All of this the male can do as well, I know this.

However, we live in a world where you cannot depend on others to do the right thing. Just like when driving and you have to pay attention to what other drivers are doing. You might be the best driver there is but that will not keep you from getting into an accident because of another idiot. In the world of sex you cannot depend on the other person to do what they can to protect you from all situations. They make more than one form of contraception for women.

As I mentioned several times if both parties took the responsibilities necessary we would never have to worry about discussing this.

As for me I am married to the woman I have a child with. We were married for 5 years before he was born, in about 5 months we will have been married for 10 years. Some men are about commitment, it upsets me a little to see so many broad brush strokes from the female posters on here about men. I at least have stated repeatedly that both parties are to blame, but since the woman has so many outs the man should have one as well.

My child comes before any other living person on this planet, followed closely by my wife. Men can be great caretakers, I used to wake in the night to feed and change diapers. I still wake before my wife when he has a bad dream. I am the lightest sleeper and if I hear him I am there to do my job, no sense in waking her when I can do it as well. I also know how to do things around the house such as cook, clean, or whatever.

Raist



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by Whiffer Nippets
I'm CF.

That means Child Free By Choice.

And the next time anyone asks me why all I will have to do is point to this thread.




Is that what CF means I think I heard it on some other site and threads, by women...I always thought it meant Cystic Fibrosis or Country Fries ...See these kind of things need interpretation.



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


Star, you are wrong. As I said read about me. In fact I will post it again for the third time.

I am a 33 year old male. I am also a father to 4 kids. 2 (1 from the ex, and one with my current wife) biological, 1 step child, and 1 who isn't my current wife or mine biologically. I have full custody of the 2 boys from my previous marriage, my oldest (1 biological), and the non bio one. I also am a Marine Corps veteran with two western pacific deployments (leave my family for a 6 month period on a naval ship). i was married to my first wife during my entire time in the Corps. My oldest son was born about 2 years into my 5 1/2 years in. before I left on my second deployment, my ex was pregnant with my chlld. Just before the halfway point of this deployment, my ex decided to get an abortion so she could pursue a relationship with another man. When I got back we tried to reconcile, and she got pregnant again. From what she told me it was my child again so I was there for his birth, and have since been there as dad. Around 6 months of age, I could tell that he wasn't truly mine, but it did not matter because I loved him no matter what. We ended up staying together for about 2 1/2 years after he was born. I finally decided I did not want to stay in the relationship with her because of the signifigant physical, emotional, financial abuse, as well as her meth aabuse problem. It wasn't fair to me, not my kids. So while we were seperated, and in the process of filing the paperwork, the kids would stay with me, wether it was because she was more intererested in getting high or not wanting to be a parent, it didn't matter. Well one day she decided she wanted to keep them after a visit and since there was no paperwork present there was nothing I could do. The next day, I get a call from her asking if she is going to go to jail and nothing else. I drive to her house and the kids were not there, nor was she. The cops were there, and in speaking to them, I found out that the boys have been taken to foster care because they were left alone. Through the preceding social services case that was brought, she told them, that i wasn't my youngest sons father and another man was. So I had to do a dna test.
Not his bio dad. They contacted his bio dad, said wanted nothing to do with him, but does pay his child support on time. Since the ex was found unfit for not completing her treatment plan and the bio dad didnt want to be involoved I got custody of him also. I couldnt be happier. 6The ex was given supervised visitation, to which she went to sporadically, and eventually moved to another city, got married again, and had another child. The visits became less and less, and even more random. Unfortunately, the boys never had any stability because they didnt understand what was going on with their mom saying she was going to come see them and not show, or call and not call. Eventually, I made the decision to stop her visits completly, after she called social services attemtping to stir up trouble, trying to alienate the boys, by saying my wife and I are bad parents. Since then, she has done the same with her daughter from her now finished 2nd marriage. he has custody of their daughter, and no doubt will have to deal with the same issues I ha ve with the boys.
Might I also add, that she owes almost 10k in back child support,and in the 6 years, I have had custody of them, has paid maybe 3 months of child support (mostly when they grab her income tax refund). It has now been almost a year since we have heard from her, and luckily with the love and support my wife and I give, as well as their therapists, and my ex's family, the boys are learning to live with the fact that their mom, will not accept responsibility for her actions,and prolly never will. If no one beleives this or it doesnt suit your logic, and thats fine also, it is a free world after all.

So now that you read that, If I was arguing from my emotions I would have a differentt stance would I not?



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by mayertuck
 


The mom who owes thousands in back child support.

Do your children still love her?



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


Yes they do as they should if nothing else because she gave them life. Just as I am with my dad who wasn't there was a crack addict, alchoholic, wife beater. I still love him because he gave me life, but I do not have a relationship with him at all.

And it took me 6 years of her being the way she was to them before I said it is hurting the kids too much for me to allow them to be continually hurt. This decision was made after discussing it with social services, my wife, my exes mother and family, and the children's therapists. Even with everyone saying it was the right thing to do I still feel bad for having to make that decision. I have continuiously given her the chance to be a parent to the kids and each time she decided to not step up and put herself before the kids. With the result of the kids being hurt time and time again.

I am both saddened and glad that they see my current wife as mom, because she has been there and continues to be there for them.


edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)




edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by packinupngoin
 





Look just based on the "gist" I would say this is just malarky. If there is anyone to blame it should be the man. He knows exactly what will happen if he doesn't wear a condom. And he knows that most women want a child. So give me a break.


First of all, "blame" is hardly the point at issue. That would be, instead, reproductive rights. And secondly, you raise an interesting point in your assertion that "he knows most women want a child." The point being, that the sexes have different biological drives, and different responsibilities as regards to these drives. In the not too recent past a woman was responsible for remaining chaste until marriage to avoid an "unwanted" pregnancy, "unwanted" not in the sense that she didn't "want" the baby, but in the broader sense that she had failed in her primary responsibility of procuring a mate, and the accompanying contract (marriage) that made having and raising that child a viable situation.

Listen closely: It has always fallen upon women to be the gatekeepers of their own bodies.

For good reason. The reason is that males have a different biological drive, namely to spread their DNA far and wide. Not that they consciously choose to spread their DNA in this manner, I'm only talking about biological drives here. And the social stigma associated with unwed pregnancy, as well as the stigma afforded "loose girls" in ages past is a testament, not to close-mindedness, or mean-spirited no-fun-niks, but rather to the simple facts of nature. These facts of nature are turned on their ear in the current system, with the advent of the Murphy Brown single mother-by-choice culture, (which is an economic fiction for most women) coercive child support laws that require no marriage contract, and abortion on demand.
The dance between the sexes' different drives would, without governmental interference, naturally result in more people marrying, and staying married. As well as fewer "unwanted pregnancies."
You cannot assert that "men" should be held responsible for "women's" choices with no sense of historical perspective, no understanding of the dynamics involved, and no respect for the principles of equality (in our laws) and expect to be taken seriously by anyone that doesn't already agree with you in a blind, unreasoning manner.



edit on 19-9-2010 by joechip because: formatting



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by StarrGazer25
 


i would love to..If my son got a girl pregnant, I would expect him to step up and deal with the consequences of his actions. If my daughter got pregnant I would expect her to step up and deal with the consequences of her actions. In both case have the child, be in their life and raise the child.

Now those are simply my wishes and expectations, can I make any of my kids do what I want when it comes to a situation like that no I can not.

Regardless of their individual decisions I will still love and support them in it.

And if the guy wasn't around that would not stop me from wanting my daughter to be responsible for her actions. Yea its hard. and she would have help just as if my son's got a girl pregnant.


edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



so you would expect your son to help, but if he chooses to walk away because he didnt want the child you would be ok with that? You would be ok knowing your grandchild is suffering by not having adequate clothing,dental,health insurance,food?? Because your son has the choice to LEGALLY walk away?? and if a man knocked up your daughter and walked away (Legally lets just say if this all was to happen) you would be ok with watching your daughter struggle? You would be ok with her being in the welfare system and having social workers treat her like an uneducated fool and constantly hasseling her? I got a job making 9.50/hr and my foodstamps got taken away, along with my daughters medicaid... believe me the welfare system SUCKS, apparently they think i make to much money and dont need help when day care is 500$ a month, my rent is 675/month, my car insurance and payment add up to 510$/month they told me to get rid of my CAR?!?! ARE U SERIOUS? That car gets me back and fourth to work, to her day care, its not brand new its a 2005 they would rather I take the bus or buy an old car straight out *as if I have that kind of cash!* that could break down on me on the side of the street? Thats ridiculous! My lights are 120/month and my cell phone is 50$./month... add up my bills, add up how much I make...and apparently I make to much money! ....Everytime I call I get these women who act like they hate their jobs, they are always aggervated and make me feel like # because I need a little help? You would be ok with your daughter having to give up her education for the sake of loving her child and getting a job to support that child while the man walks away?? Please tell me how you would feel under those circumstance?...



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by StarrGazer25
 

Star I have been there, I was on food stamps, could not get welfare. I know it sucks. Been there done that. Back in June I was laid off from my job, I got 333 a month from unemployment. We tried to go back on food stamps. Did we get them nope we were $78 over the limit due to my unemployment and my wife's wages. It sucks I fully agree there. In fact it is a nightmare. In fact I had to do all this with people that thought I shouldn't even be applying for these benefits nor have custody of my kids in the first place.

Now if my son walked away from his responsibilities would I be ok with it. No I would not. I would be disappointed in him. I can tell him to do the right thing all I want. It is up to him to listen, I can only control myself and give advice and what I think is right to others. If he somehow got custody and the mom didn't want to be bothered would I want him to go through the system of food stamps and all that no but if he had to for his child then he must once again do what he has to do. But I hope and assume he will do whats right and best for his child. Just as I have done with him.

The exact same thing holds true with my daughter.



edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)




edit on 19-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



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