Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
If you choose not to abstain don't come whining about a baby then.

But if a woman chooses not to abstain, she can whine about a baby and child support all she wants, right?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
And why should men have an equal say over a baby growing in a females womb? They are not assuming the risk of the pregnancy thus their risk assessment is lower...

Yes, the man's physical risk is lower. Meaning that the woman's risk is higher. Therefore it seems to me that she should be the one to be more careful about getting pregnant. Isn't it up to the person who's taking the bigger risk to be more careful?

The point is men have the upper hand and all the control over who can possibly get pregnant with their precious swimmers

Women don't have any control over getting pregnant or who they allow in there? What about demanding the man wear a condom? Using spermicide?The pill? An IUD, the morning after pill? What about holding a nickle between her knees? Seems to me she can have all the control she wants. You talk as if the woman is a total wimp and has NO choices about getting pregnant. What's up with that?

Do not deposit your precious tender into a bank you don't want to do lifetime business with!

And do not open your legs for anyone unless you are willing and able to raise the possibly resultant child on your own - unless you have a signed contract beforehand that he will be financially responsible. That's not a bad idea. Another way a woman can have control. Before you have sex with anyone, have him sign a legal document that he will assume financial responsibility should a pregnancy result.

After all, women are at a higher risk. They should be more discerning.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Choose women you would not mind being mothers to your children. In other words accept responsiblity for the actions of your reproductive organs.

And women should choose men who they think would make good fathers and accept the financial responsibility for the actions of their reproductive organs.

It seems to me that everyone left discussing this is on "one side or the other". Either men should take all the responsibility and women are crap, or women should take all the responsibility and men are crap. There is a middle ground - a situation where BOTH or NEITHER can take responsibility. Something more equal, if not completely so.

The best thing for the child is to have security. If a woman can't insure that, (either by her own means or by choosing a responsible partner) then it's irresponsible for her to have a child and the responsible thing for her to do would be abort. And for her to depend on a man for financial support of a child is also irresponsible.

If a man can't insure security, (either by his own means or by choosing a responsible partner) then it's irresponsible for him to get a woman pregnant and the responsible thing for him to do would be to let her know ahead of time that he has NO intention of supporting a child. And for him to depend on the woman to support the child is also irresponsible.

But in the end, IF this all fails and they have sex and create a pregnancy, she has the option of correcting the mistake for herself (and the man). As it stands, he does not have that same option. That's just the way it is. But we could change the law so that if he had a similar option for himself, women would be a LOT more judicious about who they have sex with.

Men SHOULD be a LOT more judicious about who they have sex with, but so should women. We're not some brainless gender that has to spread our legs for every guy that comes along! We must take responsibility for equality! It's what we are striving for! If you want equality, stop holding onto the idea that we have no power, because when it comes to sex, we have ALL the power! And it's crappy to take advantage of that, while screaming that we want equality! There's a way to make the playing field more equal. Give the man the same choice that we have. To have a baby or not.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Men already have reproductive rights. They have the right to keep their pants zipped if they can't step up to the plate.

Originally posted by OceanStone
The same could be said about the woman.

Originally posted by Hefficide
She sure does have that right.

But if she finds herself pregnant, she also has the right to abortion.

And if she carries full term she also has the right to file for child support from the father.

I believe the child does not belong only to the mother. The father's input and wishes should carry as much weight as the mother's.

The moral disallowance of abortion does not violate the rights of the mother to choose. It only requires her to take responsibility for the choice that she already made.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by mayertuck

 

You accused me of flip flopping.

I am asking for a specific in thread flip flop, but I appreciate knowing if you cannot locate one (I thought I had been quite steady and sure in my convictions here) you will continue to misrepresent me.

All of my posts in this thread are accessible in order by clicking the button at the bottom of this post that says THREAD.
Then answer the questions please, unfortunately either answer you give will be a flip flop. So I can understand how you would not want to answer, because with your "convictions" you could not flip flop when presented with the paralle arguments.

Once again as I said if you can show that you are not or will not I will be more than happy to remove. .

edit on 18-9-2010 by hotbakedtater because: add

reply to post by hotbakedtater


And that leaves which rights for men? Oh that's right, just one: the right not to have sex. I guess because the woman has to spend 9 months pregnant it means she should have 100% power to decide whether a child gets brought into the world and whether the father will need to pay 18 years of child support.

reply to post by mayertuck

Thanks Mayertuck, but I don't need a gold star for doing my job. My thanks comes from two well adjusted adult children that stand up to their responsibilities and take them very seriously. My son is an awesome father and married a good woman. My step son doesn't want children and knows how to prevent them. He also knows that if he fails at prevention he is responsible for that child. I've done my job : ).

reply to post by SeenMyShare

It may be he is tired of "debating" with people who have a skewed view of responsibility.

I know the feeling.

As previously stated children are taught at a very young age in the country the ramifications of sex. They know it can lead to pregnancy and std's. If one chooses to lie down one takes the responsibility upon themselves for those ramifications.
If one creates a child one is responsible for said child until the child comes of age. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Unless the girl wants to give it up for adoption, or kill it... then its all just peaches, right?

I know that this country allows abortion but in my limited world view abortion is not a form of birth control.

Oh, really?

Girls using abortion as birth control and having up to FOUR terminations by the age of 18
www.dailymail.co.uk...

That.... makes your limited world-view... incorrect, don't it?

Abortion in my view is reserved for rapes or life threatening pregnancies.

And I'm sure that there are NO women who would kill a child for convenience, right?

All other pregnancies in a fair and just world result in children. Those children were created by two people and both of those people are responsible in equal proportions to the care and well being of that child. For the law to step in and say otherwise is just wrong.

Unless she wants to put the baby up for adoption... then she can relieve herself of parental responsibility....


Right?

My opinion: women who use abortion as a means of birth control should be spayed.

Hmmm....

Men who want to avoid responsibility for children they've fathered should be neutered.

Hmmmmm.....

With all of the methods of pregnancy prevention we have access to along with taking personal responsibility for your prevention methods this discussion should not even be an issue. Irresponsible acts followed by irresponsible acts.

Yes... but should a Man be required to pay for the decision of another person?



Because I don't see the woman as having to "Woman Up" and take responsibility if she does not want to... DESPITE THE FACT THAT SHE SPREAD HER LEGS AND GOT KNOCKED UP.

She has an Out.


His FATE is legally entrusted to HER WHIMS.


This is Tyranny.

No other way to put it, really.

I've told my stepson that it is his responsibility to protect himself no matter what the girl tells him. If she says she's on the pill, use a condom. Provide his own condom. Never let the condom out of his control. Make sure his condoms are fresh. I've also told him condoms break. Condoms can be defective.

Indeed...

you know that there are women who will fish a used condom out of the trash to impregnate themselves?

Oh yeah... seriously...


Here is Professer Lykis to explain it:

reply to post by hotbakedtater



You getting a gold star depends on what were the circumstances in raising two kids alone. If you were in a commited relationship and your partner up and left you and the kids then yes you do. If however you decided to go it alone, or you have the choice and he has no say then sorry nope no gold stars from you.

Why does she get a gold star? Not for agreeing with me, I can care less whether people agree with me or not. She gets a gold star because she chose a course of action and took responsibility for HER CHOICE.

Being a single parent is incredibly hard, especially when you take responsibilit for the choices we make. Been there done that.

Now onto this tidbit"

"Do men/women who raise their kids from "bad" mom/dadss somehow feel they deserve a gold star for doing so?"

I can only speak for myself and say I do not deserve anything I am taking care of my responsibilities from my choices, being the best dad I can, and trying to raise my kids right and give them a better life than I ever had growing up. However, because I know how hard this is (even with an intact familu) does not mean I will commend others who are doing the right thing. They ,may not want it either I do not know all I know is I personally do not want it.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Back in November of 2007 the plaintiff in the OP case lost his appeal.

en.wikipedia.org...

The court cited the Fourteenth Amendment.

I do not think the idea of a male opt out is going over well with the courts.

Males have not been denied a pregnancy opt out.

And this does not surprise me one bit. With the current social climate why would it surprise anyone?

But thing is about society and laws they are always changing. It may take 40 years like with feminism but it will hopefully change.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Jwbmore

 

The right to forfeit parental rights already exists. But I doubt any judge would allow it simply because a man didn't feel like he wanted to be a parent. Sex causes pregnancy, ergo, if you don't want to be a dad, then don't have sex. It's simple.

Saying that a guy should be able to get sex and then should be able to refuse to be a parent is like saying that I should be able to jump off the roof and not have to hit the ground. It's cause and effect. It's common sense.

again back to what I stated earlier, if a woman doesn't want to have a baby she shouldn't be having sex either. No one will tell a woman,"you play you pay." When my first wife left me with the kids I was so happy to have them that when we went to the friend of the court I said that I didn't want child support. I was just so happy to be a dad with custody. Financially times were tough but I chose to have my kids and took care of them on my own. I don't see any reason why anyone can't do it. I'm not any genius nor do I have and high paying job. I was just determined and I did it. I don't feel sorry for any man or woman that whines about the others responsibility. Just take care of the flippin kids and if the other parent doesn't want to be there F them. I didn't use any financial aid either. It would be nice if the government would stay OUT of families.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I have never said all women are crap I completly agree that there should be a middle ground, and I hope my posts, are completely illustrating that concept.

Originally posted by SeenMyShare

My opinion: women who use abortion as a means of birth control should be spayed. Men who want to avoid responsibility for children they've fathered should be neutered. With all of the methods of pregnancy prevention we have access to along with taking personal responsibility for your prevention methods this discussion should not even be an issue. Irresponsible acts followed by irresponsible acts.

I've told my stepson that it is his responsibility to protect himself no matter what the girl tells him. If she says she's on the pill, use a condom. Provide his own condom. Never let the condom out of his control. Make sure his condoms are fresh. I've also told him condoms break. Condoms can be defective. He knows the ramifications and if he fathers a child he knows his responsibility!

Some sound advice I`d say,although I hope you have explained to him also what many women out there will and can do to him on purpose with little to no legal support for him as a male and father only that which the feminists are happy with.

I some how doubt you did though,because I get the suspicion you believe the laws reguarding motherhood and fatherhood are fine as they are.

reply to post by chefc14


To the contrary. I would say that to a woman as well. I think I've been coming across as anti-male in this thread because of the topic - specifically the subject of men wanting to opt out of child support simply because they felt trapped.

In reality I feel, and have said several times in this thread, that both parents are obligated. Not just the father.

Originally posted by SeenMyShare
reply to post by mayertuck

 

Thanks Mayertuck, but I don't need a gold star for doing my job. My thanks comes from two well adjusted adult children that stand up to their responsibilities and take them very seriously. My son is an awesome father and married a good woman. My step son doesn't want children and knows how to prevent them. He also knows that if he fails at prevention he is responsible for that child. I've done my job : ).

I feel the same way, and just now addressed that issue in a reply. Sorry its a little late replying, just got home from an hour long drive from work. So I am definetly behind the power curve on posting.

reply to post by Edrick

My view of reality is skewed. I admit that. I believe that abortion as a means of birth control is murder and I believe that standing up to responsibility is the right thing to do. Its how I live and how I raised my boys. Its the reason my husband appealed to the courts for DNA to provide for a son he knew was his though the mother claimed wasn't. Its the reason we pushed for custody when we found him asleep in the back of a car with no one around in the dead of winter. Its the reason that I raised a child who was born to a cheating husband and a woman who has children to live off of support. I may have a skewed view of reality but not a skewed view of responsibility.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by chefc14

 

To the contrary. I would say that to a woman as well. I think I've been coming across as anti-male in this thread because of the topic - specifically the subject of men wanting to opt out of child support simply because they felt trapped.

In reality I feel, and have said several times in this thread, that both parents are obligated. Not just the father.

I have never said that you were anti-male, nor do I think you are. I do however think that you are placing all of the responsibility on the person with the least amount of choice in the matter, while pushing an unrealistic solution.

reply to post by Hefficide


But you are setting different standards for taking responsibility. Women can have sex freely with any guy they like as often as they like. Men, however, despite being biologically more inclined to have sex have to abstain from it because the woman might fall pregnant. It is lose-lose for men unless their desires match that of the woman they have impregnated.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Hooray for BH and other respectable women,of coarse this has to be just from my perspective I wont pretend to speak for the feminazi`s and their ilk.

Originally posted by Hefficide

Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by Hefficide

 

So its just the mothers that get an avenue to escape that responsibility correct?

It's only the mothers who have to carry an embryo for nine months.
It's only the mothers who risk their physical health to bring forth life.

So, yes, it's only a mother who has the ultimate right to decide about surgical procedures to her body.

Do you think that a woman should have the right to force her male lover to have a vasectomy or the surgery required to be a eunuch? Because that is the inverse of your argument here.

uh no, the woman shouldn't be having sex if she doesn't want to become a mother. See when you say she has to carry a baby for 9 months or risk her health to have the baby that just sounds like whining. What the hell is she fooling around for if she doesn't want to have baby. Abortion is a cop out from a responsibility period, if you get in the sack that is a possible side effect. I think both moms and dads are responsible. Women do have a way out but men don't. There is no equality in that. Now I'm not even talking about abortion because I feel that is a different issue. I mean whether you are pro life or pro choice. I'm just saying that it's an option for women but not for men.

Originally posted by mayertuck

I have never said that you were anti-male, nor do I think you are. I do however think that you are placing all of the responsibility on the person with the least amount of choice in the matter, while pushing an unrealistic solution.

Not all of the responsibility. Just the mans fair share of it.

reply to post by chefc14


I can't agree with this because it implies that the woman is the only participant in the sex. A man engages a woman sexually while aware of the potential outcomes

Birth control is not the sole responsibility of the female.