Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

reply to post by Annee



Exactly the same argument can be said for both sides of the issue. I for myself try to look at all studies relate or that I can find from both sides to come to my conclusions though.

Originally posted by Jwbmore
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Or should the women not advertise her womb in the first place if her contractual agreements aren't enforceable its like women have a get out of jail free card whats to stop mass women allowing them self's to be inseminated all in the guise to trap men into paying child support.I am only trying to point out the holes in your logic and that women are not held to the same level of accountability and do reserve rights a man does not even in a case where a women voluntarily become pregnant with a man that never considers that a risk which is inherit-ably unequal

My logic is sound as is demonstrated by the fact that you're having to resort to these extremities in order to dispute it.

A woman agreeing to have sex with a man cannot be construed as "a guise to entrap" him. The man is a big boy who should know how to say "no" and to step up to his responsibilities if he doesn't say no.

Would I be innocent of DUI because the bartender offered me beer? "But he entrapped me with offers of beery goodness your honor." It just doesn't fly. Personal responsibility is personal responsibility. Period.

reply to post by Annee


No worries at all I dont need to be admired, Im just a parent trying to raise my kids right, something both men and women shoudl be doing. , I hope you can understand how I can come to the conclusion I have.about the issues. Just as I can appreciate the women's perspectives.

reply to post by stephanies-chase


Unless your a women

reply to post by Hefficide


that makes no sense at all are you reading my example I am talking about women accepting a contract to be inseminated no sex no relationship between the two so how does that apply.Secondly a bartender giving you a drink versus a person entering a legal contract with both parties agreeing to terms and then one not fulfilling the other the women still reserves this right you say they have and men do not.
I am reading all of your post pleas do the same for me because i am starting to think you are breezing through and making ill informed comments.

reply to post by Jwbmore


I can assure you that I am reading your posts. In fact I'm having to read the bulk of them more than once in order to try and understand how they apply to the topic at hand.

Trying to relate a contractual default in a case of artificial insemination is a totally separate issue from a standard paternity situation. It compounds and obfuscates the whole issue.

The original OP was based upon the notion that because a woman can have an abortion, then shouldn't a man be allowed to opt out of parental responsibility as well. To get anal about it, the law specifies that a woman has roughly six months to have an abortion so, logically, one would also assume that the desired standard would be that a man should also have the first two thirds of the pregnancy to opt out as well.

If the woman has an abortion then there is no child. It is never born. There is not a life that requires monetary support in order to survive and to have advantage and opportunity.

Are you with me?

If a male were to have the option to opt out then there would be a live birth. There would be a child that required monetary support.

THIS is what makes the two things nonequivalent. This is why they are not the same. Because the end result is totally different.

To be honest, and this is not directed towards you specifically, it is beyond my comprehension that so many men seem to be so frightened of women as to liken them to money grubbing whores who pump out babies for profit. While I am sure that there are women who don't have enough qualms to not do this (Octomom comes to mind) the reality is that this is not normal behavior.

We cannot base laws for all upon the behaviors of the pathological few.

Seeking to create legally confusing and difficult examples of a poor argument does not add to the validity of either argument and only serves to muddy the waters.

reply to post by joechip


Both male and female are signaling that they are prepared to accept parenthood when they have sex. Everyone knows no birth control method is 100% reliable and using them is no excuse to cry foul once the deed is done. If they aren't prepared to be parents, they shouldn't have sex. It's that simple.

reply to post by Hefficide


Sorry this justifiaction does not apply at all. Yes a child is born if she chooses to continue the pregnancy. This is all based of her choice and power of the situation. Plain and simple. Yes they both know the possible consequences of having sex, Women can and do get out of dealing with that consequence all the while having all the control and decision making abilities in that matter.

Again how this all ties into the OP is women have a out through abortion,adoption or abandonment.This is true you cant force a women to have a abortion but she can because nature gave her that advantage so just like in other instances where nature leaves one disadvantage us as a society make accommodation to be fair so how come its OK to say their is no equivalent for men and leave it at that.There has to be equality above all if a women is not legal binded to support that child after sex then neither is a man.The baby will be born upon the mothers decision due to safety to her body and the child but that does not mean the man should not have his say effect the outcome if he does not want the child its just as much his right then it is for a women to terminate a pregnancy for the same reason they did the deed and now wont face the consequences its a double standard and it has nothing to do with whose womb it is because that would be again holding a advantage over men which is unfair

Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Sorry this justifiaction does not apply at all. Yes a child is born if she chooses to continue the pregnancy. This is all based of her choice and power of the situation. Plain and simple. Yes they both know the possible consequences of having sex, Women can and do get out of dealing with that consequence all the while having all the control and decision making abilities in that matter.

Of course she has all the power. It's her body. My advice is pretty cut and dry. If you don't like that women carry babies and, therefore, have a disproportionate say in pregnancy - don't sleep with them.

That's the key factor here. Nobody is forcing guys to have sex. They are doing it willingly.

So, So conflicted. Some additional points are: Some states a mother can give the child up for adoption without fathers consent. like... Utah. It is getting more and more common for women to fly to Utah to have the baby and give up for adoption.

Basically it seems the only option men have is to 'keep it zipped'. If he doesn't he can lose home, job, wages, right to visit and countless other things. This is ignoring how some divorces turn ugly enough that child welfare is forgotten as custody and child support are used as weapons to try and destroy the other (usually man). All the while the image of the deadbeat dad floats around.

There are grotesque imbalances within the system.. But I don't think giving arbitrary power to decline fatherhood is a way to address it.

reply to post by Hefficide


Ok so by using the same logic along with my gender norming argument, if a woman can not handle the same physical demands as a man then she should not do the job correct? If that is the case then by all means lets throw away everything we have done to strive for equality.

And because she has the body and the power should she also not have the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of her choices since she has the body and the power? With great power does not great responsibility come with it?

reply to post by lordtyp0


great post, I can not honestly say that this is the right answer either, all I can really say it is something of a start to correct the imbalance. And causing the both parties to not only have a say, but to also accept the consequences for their actions and bear the responsibility resulting from it.

Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Ok so by using the same logic along with my gender norming argument, if a woman can not handle the same physical demands as a man then she should not do the job correct? If that is the case then by all means lets throw away everything we have done to strive for equality.

Are you really suggesting that forcing fathers to take care of their offspring would set back womens rights?

The number of push-ups a person can do is not equal to the concept of consensual sex and pregnancy.

Originally posted by Hefficide

Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Ok so by using the same logic along with my gender norming argument, if a woman can not handle the same physical demands as a man then she should not do the job correct? If that is the case then by all means lets throw away everything we have done to strive for equality.

Are you really suggesting that forcing fathers to take care of their offspring would set back womens rights?

The number of push-ups a person can do is not equal to the concept of consensual sex and pregnancy.

I never said they were the same, I said that the biology argument is basically null and void/ You can not use it as a support for your decision i.e. she has the organs for carrying the body when it is convient to disregard it because it helps your point of view, and then when a biology difference is brought up for another issue biological differences are not important.

Just wanted to let everyone know that Jenna and I are setting up a one on one debate in the debate forum, focusing specifically on the legal and constitutional issues involved in male reproductive rights. It should be starting on Monday sept. 20. We're going to have an in-depth, well-researched, and civil debate, and I invite everyone interested in this topic to drop by and follow the discussion. When we've decided on a title, one of us will be sure to post it in here for easy access.

reply to post by joechip


Cool thanks I will defintly appreciate the invite.

If its not bad enough a man ussually loses his children and hard earned assests and is reduced to little more than a credit card with occasional visitation rights when a marriage/relationship fails,the government also encourages with financial incentives for any female to have a baby,now of coarse this money comes in handy for a new born but it has only made more of a problem resulting in more single mothers and more a drain on tax payers.

In Australia they get $5,294.00 per new born,which now they even have to cater for teen mothers still in school which is a growing problem.Many girls get pregnant after leaving school just so they dont have to work,my Mr`s knew personally quite a few when she used to work in a shopping centre and they were honest about it,they didn`t care who the father was,poor suckers.

With all the mess society has become over the past 20-30 years since the no blame laws with regards to divorce, its clear to me this was all intended,they only needed to infect one generation of children to be fatherless for this to have a snowball effect and to arrive at where we are.

If these extreme type feminists get all warm and fuzzy at the thourght they created this crap,get over yourselves you were used as a tool.

Heck I live next door to a teenage mom who has two children,one aprox 5,the other approx 3 who are verbally abused to the extreme constantly, I couldn`t count the times I`ve had to call the authories about it,well that and for her throwing huge all night parties outside 3-4 times a week,when myself and the Mr`s need sleep to go to work the next day and our tax money goes to pay for this crap.

reply to post by Janky Red


I am sorry but you couldnt be more wrong on the matter of beating, it is actually about even between men and women.

reply to post by spacekc929


I am sorry but how is it I do not feel the way you do towards your kids. While I did not carry them for 9 months, I have been their primary and only caretaker (with the exception of my current wife) of the children from my first marriage. You are speaking of your own experiences, but those experieince do not encompass the entirety of the the population.