Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by mayertuck

 

How is it thinking for herself? She admitted it took a long time but her husband finally convinced her to drop her beliefs and take his.

I don't appreciate this at all. And I don't think I deserve it. I'm a VERY independent 53 year old woman and a feminist. So is my husband (not a 53 year old woman, but a feminist). And what's worse is that you know that about me.

Feminism is about EQUAL rights, not the woman having all the rights or taking the men's position away. It's about taking my place alongside men and advocating for EQUAL rights wherever possible.

I'm open-minded and can learn things and change my mind and that's exactly what I did. I did not "drop my beliefs and take his". I changed my mind.

edit on 9/17/2010 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

And I said that I support your right to change your mind. But by converse I hope you are not implying my beliefs are close minded because I won't change them. You state youa re open minded and changed your mind (you said you USED to think like I do).

The other poster implied my ideas are hogwash when he was praising your stance, and between the open minded statement and then the hogwash, excuse me if I took offense at that, and felt that neither were deserved either.

It is fine, it is a debate, and I am just defending my beliefs, like you are. That is also something I support and why I love a good debate. Just because I am debating does not mean I am here to change minds.

But to the unmade mind, I want my beliefs to be considered on this topic.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Annee

 

If the same held true for the woman, I would agree with him.

My whole position is equality. And since abortion is a legal and valid way for a woman to say, "I don't want this responsibility that I've gotten into", I think the man should have the same option, if possible.

If abortion was illegal, then the man should have to step up and do his part, too.

Here's what my hubby says on men's rights in reproduction:

When men have suffered - the guilt - humiliation - responsibility - abuse - etc - - - for even a 10th of the time women have from the beginning of time - - - then their rights can be considered.

Basically he is saying - the pain women have endured - can not be dismissed or erased - in such a short period of time. What is Equal?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


If you have no interest in changing a though yes you are closed minded. Could I be wrong about my line of thinking yes, if someone can debate without resorting to fallacies and they can make their case with solid proof then yeah my mind could and probably would change.

As for callling the thoughts hogwash, I am sorry if it offended but it is true, any belief that causes one to be so blind to other sides of an issue are hogwash in my book, be it religion, issues of gender, race etc. there are always multiple sides to EVERYTHING.

As for you beliefs being considered I am sure that they are by people with unmade minds and even open minds. As long as all sides are given an equal voice in the say.

reply to post by Annee

Yay finally get to use this......So my race is black, does that mean I get to grab a white person as retribution for slavery that my ancestors experienced? Nope didnt think so. Because a past issue happened does not mean the shoe should be put on the other foot and the group that was harmed gets to now do the harming. No advancing there, same problem roles have just changed. In short no one isnt saying that all those issues have not happened to women in the past, what I am saying is in this day and age is it still happening?.

Also enough about what your hubby thinks? What do you think?

Where I live, I see too many irresponsible people having children. I have to wonder if they do it for economic reasons. It's a little close-minded but I know deadbeat moms as well as deadbeat dads.

Regardless, having a child is a big responsibility that requires a lot of time, love and money. You're not raising a pet. You're raising another human being. Unfortunately, some people are just too stupid to realize this.

But this thread has gotten off track - - as per usual.

The original premise of this thread was MAN shirking responsibility AGAIN - - - in the event of an "accidental" pregnancy.

reply to post by mayertuck


Sorry - - don't see the correlation.

What does race have to do with reproduction?

Originally posted by Annee
But this thread has gotten off track - - as per usual.

The original premise of this thread was MAN shirking responsibility AGAIN - - - in the event of an "accidental" pregnancy.

and as I asked before how is having an abortion not shirking responsibility, and yes i will even say again? Attack the argument not the person or group.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by mayertuck

 

Sorry - - don't see the correlation.

What does race have to do with reproduction?

the correlation is both groups have been wronged in the past. Both wrongs for the most part have been addressed and fixed. reproduction is a right correct? so is freedom.

you do not fix a problem by creating the same problem on the reverse side.

Originally posted by The Sword
Where I live, I see too many irresponsible people having children. I have to wonder if they do it for economic reasons. It's a little close-minded but I know deadbeat moms as well as deadbeat dads.

Regardless, having a child is a big responsibility that requires a lot of time, love and money. You're not raising a pet. You're raising another human being. Unfortunately, some people are just too stupid to realize this.

Some people keep "squeezing out pups" because they believe it gives them higher priority to better paying jobs. Men used to do it all the time... until child support enforcement stepped in with a heavy hammer. Now I see women pulling the same sh*t. The only way to discourage the practice is to make things as difficult as possible for all parties involved. Spay and neuter is my motto.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
But by converse I hope you are not implying my beliefs are close minded because I won't change them.

I did not imply that.

It is fine, it is a debate, and I am just defending my beliefs, like you are.

If you just love a good debate, why say things to me like I'm trampling on women's reproductive rights and baby's rights, and advocating forced abortion and dropping my beliefs and taking up my husbands??? (He threw back his head and guffawed when I told him that) Those terribly twisted accusations have no place in "good debate".

And please don't take offense that I said I'm open minded. That just means that I have the ability to change my mind when presented with information. It wasn't meant as a cut to you at all.

You and I have always been good with each other. There's no reason to think that I'm engaged in some lower form of argument that we see so much of here on ATS. And there's no reason for you to engage in it with me. We disagree on this one issue, but that's OK. We can still respect each other and be friends and I don't feel like you're being very friendly with me.

I understand other members have come after you, but I'm not, OK?

I'd write one of those biblical sounding laws regarding this:

If a pregnant woman can get an abortion without the consult of the man who impregnated her, then she has complete control over whether the child is born or not. This being the case, if she chooses to have the baby without the consult of the man, or if the man chooses for the woman to have an abortion and the woman does not abort, then the responsibility of raising and providing for the child falls on the woman. If however the woman decides on an abortion and the man does not agree, then it is the mans responsibility to care for the child. If the woman wishes to give custody of the born child to the man, or if the woman chooses to abort, then the woman shall be absolved from all responsibility if the man chooses to accept the child or agrees with the abortion. If the man chooses not to accept the child from the mother, it is the same as the man choosing abortion, because he absolves responsibility.

In the case of rape, the child may be aborted by the mother without the consult of the man. If the mother chooses to have a baby that was the result of rape, then the man, wherever he may be, may return and murder the child. If the child kills the father who raped its mother, then the whole remaining family will be burned in a pit of amber and thorn.

In the case of a woman being raped or impregnated by God, then the baby shall be Jesus.

Originally posted by Annee
Basically he is saying - the pain women have endured - can not be dismissed or erased - in such a short period of time. What is Equal?

It's hard to argue with your husband!

Here's what I think though. It sounds like what he is advocating is an "affirmative action" stance for women. In other words, since they have suffered so much, they should have the upper hand for a while. That's not equality. There's NO WAY to make up for past wrongs. All we have in now and the future. Equality means equality. To me, that is. I'm sure your husband will disagree.

Wrap it or accept the possibility of fatherhood.

It's really as simple as that. You gotta pay to play friends. And if you don't like it, well there's a little snip/snip option for us too you know.

If you are a guy, and go around having unprotected sex, then you're throwing your own dice... Up to you.

Again, I know that I fall in the minority by agreeing on the side of the men when I say that yes, they should be able to decline fatherhood ( Just as the woman is able to decline motherhood- abortion, adoption)

I have already posed this discussion topic to a few family and friends and I am getting mixed reviews!!!

Again,

Reply to post by The Sword

We are discussing whether or not a man should have the right to abandon a child if the preganancy is unplanned. This debate stems from the proposition that a woman has the right, because its her body, to abort/put up for adoption/carry to term the product of sexual activity. If a woman has that right then a man in theory would have the right to revoke his seed. So goes the slippery slope of social justice. Having an abortion is the shirking of responsiblity. Refusing to be a father is the shirking of responsiblity. Having sex is supposed to make babies! The excuse of protection not working is just that, an excuse; you willingly participated in an act thats very purpose is to produce children. No mind is given to the childs well being I.E. The right to LIFE, liberty etc. Everyone is worried about maintaining their 'rights' and never stop to consider the childs! It should stand reason that like every other decision in life you have to live with it because you (metaphoricaly you) made it happen. Nothing was unplanned just because you didn't desire the natural outcome.


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reply to post by Gazrok


Birth control doesn't always work. My nephew was conceived while my sister was on the pill.

I agree that BOTH man and woman should take responsibility, but since the woman has an out, in the interest of equality, shouldn't the man also have an out? If possible?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
. . . . , but since the woman has an out, in the interest of equality, shouldn't the man also have an out? If possible?

I'd love to go along with this thought - - but just can't. Because it really is not equal.

Is the man willing to pay to have the fetus harvested and pay to have it placed in a surrogate? Now that would be equal.

Cuz the woman still has to go through 9 months and birth. For some it goes without a hitch. But for others pregnancy and birth can be extremely difficult even resulting in death.