Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yes but what I think you are failing to see, is that the male can choose an abortion as well... the only difference is that this form of abortion doesn't kill a child... it simply releases him from any legal conscription to pay for that which he doesn't want.

And that is somehow better? He has no responsibilities to the well-being of an already born child and you think that is somehow better? You don't think that hurts the child?

Originally posted by xyankee
A little off the beaten path but, how about this: Would you believe that if a couple is married, and the woman goes out and cheats on the man, has sex with some other guy, and gets pregnant, the husband is responsible for that child until the age of 18, regardless if they get divorced after. Despite the fact that the child is not his. How does that sound for the rights of men!!!!

edit on 9/17/10 by xyankee because: correction

No one commented on this previous post of mine! lol I would like to hear how the women feel that this situation is fair. This is how badly this is a one sided situation.

Originally posted by kokoro
All this will do if passed is increase abortion rates in America, as if they werent already sickeningly high. Men already have the option to walk away and have nothing to do with a baby. As it is now all we ask of him is that if you dont want to be emotionally invested you at least need to pay for some of the cost of the baby's care. I do not think that is unreasonable. If you take that away from an already burdened single parent then how is she to cope at all? This is just pure selfishness on the part of these men. This will only leave her with the choice of abortion or lifelong poverty.

I agree with previous posters that if you do not want the responibility then keep your pants up. However, I realize that in todays society that is not pracitcal.

Men need to look at it from the standpoint that if you were the ones to carry a baby, and if ulimately the responibility fell on you, absent another parent, wouldnt you want the option of making them help by payng? As it stands even now men arent affected in the same ways by the birth of a child, you can walk away at any time, a woman cannot.

edit on 17-9-2010 by kokoro because: spelling

A woman can walk away at any time (through abortion not being there, etc) , how do I know this my ex wife has, and that is fine, so yeah the responsibility is on me to be there for my children and one that isn't mine with an absent parent. And I still feel the way I do. Have I filed for child support yes I have, does shed pay it nope. Thats ok also. No matter what she chooses to do I HAVE a responsibility to give my children the best life I can. You can not make someone do something they do not want to due.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Perhaps if a woman and man decide to have a child and then the woman decides to abort it against the man's wishes, she should have to pay him for pain and suffering.

Losing a child during a pregnancy is devastating for both parents-to-be; and it would be much more psychologically damaging to the man if the child died because the mother killed it in utero.

Anyone agree? Should Damages be awarded?

I think the court system doesn't need to be involved in this crap in the first place.

But if the legal system MUST take part, I know from experience that the only answer to that question is that the guy should just ditch that chick in a heartbeat and learn to play the guitar to accompany all the sad songs he will write.

reply to post by mayertuck


Non-custodial fathers who pay little or nothing in child support far outweigh the non-custodial mothers who also don't pay.

reply to post by bluemirage5


You are wrong! what you explained is a cultural thing, it has nothing to do with Islam. honorable killing is forbidden in Islam. And if a woman does not want to marry someone, she does not have to (according to Islam)

yes, it may be a Sin to get pregnant before marriage, But they who do it, only have to be responsible of it before their Allah. Deny ignorance and hate - google it if you do not believe me

Originally posted by mayertuck

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by mayertuck

 

Hate to nitpick but I cannot stand to be misrepresented. I certainly did not bring the word cheap into the conversation. Please go back and make note of who did. You did.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by mayertuck
I agree its is a consequence, but it is a consequence that she chooses to do to not accept responsibility. Yea its not cheap, but compared with 18 years of child support is definetly the cheaper option is it not?

So if I am reading you correctly, you are saying that she is being responsible by getting an abortion because its birth control?

I was under the impression the aim of birth control was to prevent pregnancy in the first place. If the aim of birth control is to prevent pregnancy then how is getting an abortion truly facing the consequence of having sex?

edit on 17-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)

I have addressed your points you just do not like how I have done so.

"

And as I said before I freely admit that I brought it up, it was simply a matter of fact, if you take emotions out of the equation and look at it financially it is cheaper. Now humans are more than finances, so emotionally they pay a higher price, but that is their choice.

Secondly you have not addressed my points? Even in the post you quoted I asked if the goal of birth control is to PREVENT pregnancy, then how is abortion taking responsibility for the pregnancy? Also earlier, I asked about boys that were statutorily raped by women and have to pay child support, how you felt about that, and now that I think about it whether they are scumbags as you put it.

Birth control, or contraceptives, are to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Abortion prevents unwanted pregnancy.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by mayertuck
Please show me where it says that abortion is birth control? It is not birth control, it does not prevent a pregnancy. No matter how you cut it is taking action after the fact.

I think the answer is in your question. The fetus is aborted not born, hence is it birth control.

that could be, but do you honestly want to tell me that birth control is not to prevent a pregnancy in the first place? Perhaps it is misnamed? perhaps it needs to be named something like post coital birth control or something like that. Seems mighty odd that you have all these pre-intercourse methods (foams, diaphragms, condoms, etc) on one side as birth control and then 1 thing post intercourse or implatation that falls into the same catergory

Originally posted by sliceNodice
This is ridiculous. Abortion should be illegal, period. If the scumbags don't want the baby then they can hand it over to foster care. Just because the child is not running around the room smiling like an idiot doesn't mean it is not alive... Nor does it mean that he or she does not have a future. Imho, abortion is a testament to the psychotic animalistic tendencies of the human race and should be the ultimate of taboos. And what is all this murder for? The sanctity of our egos? **** that BS, I am 110% against this half baked proposition.

SO let's say for instance that you are jogging in the park late at night, and out of the bushes an attacker jumps out knocks you out and savagely rapes you. 3 weeks later, to your horror you find out that from that brutal attack, you have become pregnant... would you allow that life to continue?

Originally posted by mayertuck

A woman can walk away at any time (through abortion not being there, etc) , how do I know this my ex wife has, and that is fine, so yeah the responsibility is on me to be there for my children and one that isn't mine with an absent parent. And I still feel the way I do. Have I filed for child support yes I have, does shed pay it nope. Thats ok also. No matter what she chooses to do I HAVE a responsibility to give my children the best life I can. You can not make someone do something they do not want to due.

Yes i guess she can but by overwhelming statsitics it is most often the man. There are by far more single mothers than single fathers but I think this should go for women who walk away as well. No you cannot make someone be a parent but yoiu can try to make them take at least financial responibility through the courts , that may not always work as you say but why take away the option to try? BTW i commend you for stepping up to the plate.

reply to post by kokoro


How is it not practical to practice responsible sexual habits? In today's society we have std's that can kill us. The same act that produces a child can produce a deadly disease. it is now more than ever the time to be practical in our sexual practices.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yes but what I think you are failing to see, is that the male can choose an abortion as well... the only difference is that this form of abortion doesn't kill a child... it simply releases him from any legal conscription to pay for that which he doesn't want.

And that is somehow better? He has no responsibilities to the well-being of an already born child and you think that is somehow better? You don't think that hurts the child?

edit on 17-9-2010 by DoomsdayRex because: (no reason given)

Would you rather the father stay around, resent the child and remind the child about that every moment like my own father?

I would have been better off if he would have just left.

I don't think you are thinking clearly enough to see that if a parent doesnt want to have a child, that its a bad idea to force them to.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by mayertuck

 

Another misrepresentation. I don't do personal attacks of other members. What I am engaging in called debate. I am presenting my case, and responding to opposing points.

if you are practicing debate, then why all the fallacies? To debate you argue the points and nothing else. Feelings and emotions should not be part of the equation.

reply to post by xyankee


No man should ever be forced in to paying child support for a child that is not his except if he and his wife had a child/ren through IVF.

I am well aware there are many men out there paying child support to a child that is not biologically his - I'm sure in some cases he's not even aware the child is not his. I believe every case that goes before the child support agency should automatically accompany DNA tests if there is a question of paternity.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by nagabonar

 

Wrong!

In Islam .....

In regards to a divorce, she looses all rights of custody/visitation and the children automatically go to the father until they turn 18 years of age.

Again you are wrong:

The custody of a male child is the right of the mother until the child is capable of taking care of his own self. This has been approximated at seven years of age, and the Fatwa (legal verdict) has been issued on this age, as normally children are able to take care of themselves at this age” ). In the case of a female, the mother has this right of custody until she reaches puberty. This has been declared at nine years of age. . The right of custody will be taken away from the mother if she:

www.central-mosque.com...

Originally posted by mayertuck

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by AzoriaCorp

 

Since when is exercising the choice to abort not taking responsibility?

It is part of a females valid legal and responsible birth control choices.

I am sorry you feel the need to degrade the woman by acting like abortion is not a valid legal responsible choice, and even comparing it to not paying child support or shirking parental duties as a father is disgusting reprehensive and very telling.

Please show me where it says that abortion is birth control? It is not birth control, it does not prevent a pregnancy. No matter how you cut it is taking action after the fact.

edit on 17-9-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)

If scooping my uterus of it's contents is not preventing pregnancy what is?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Well then the women can get an abortion if the man also chooses not to have a child. Why should the woman get the choice if she isn't ready to have a child but the man doesn't? After all, they both choose to have sex. when a woman gets an abortion, she is a deatbeat just the same as if a man also chooses he is not ready. She can get an abortion if he also chooses he isn't ready. It shouldn't be her choice only and that notion is completely sexist and ignorant.

--airspoon

It is her choice only because it her body only. Abortion is legal as of the date of this debate, thus it remains a valid choice. The notion is not sexist and ignorant it is logical and biological.

Yes it is. You have a narrow mind indeed.

Yes it is in her body but the baby is, in its own right, its own person. Plus the baby is also part of the man so he equally has say so over that baby, as it is partly his, as it is part of HIS body.

ie If I loan you a tool to create something, doesnt mean the tool is yours to keep because its now in your possession.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by mayertuck

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by hotbakedtater


A man does have access to 100 percent effective contraception.

Seems easier to me to use that method (abstinence) then to let the world know they are a dead beat by trying to "decline fatherhood".

The time to decline fatherhood is before it happens.

Now that would be ideal wouldn’t it? But the reality is that both genders love to have sex and sometimes, that results in unplanned pregnancy. I believe the 8 page discussion is about the rights of the father and not a guide of how to not get knocked up.

Maybe it is about not getting knocked up because that is the only way a man can shirk his duty to fatherhood...by not becoming a father and by not engaging ina ctivity that produces children.

I assumed a biology lesson were needed, especially for those backing such reprehensible nonsense as the OP puts forth.

This is about two things, money and being ble to have sex at will with anyone and walk away if the end result is a baby.

Two things it seems overwhelmingly apparent men place great value upon, if this thread and the OP is any gage of manhood.

wow you hit the nail on the head, and for females they are able to choose to (abortion is having sex with anyone and walking away if pregnancy occurs) have those to things. Equality again men should have the same options.

Abortion is taking responsibility, it is no such thing as walking away. When men have the same body parts by all means have the smae choices. These fall under the legal umbrella of reproductive rights. Men and women have different reproductive because they have different reproductive organs that do 100 percent different things.

It is very sad that we have to have biology class 101 in this thread, I was under the assumption we all knew these facts to start with.

Ok then why if a man is under a certain age, or married he has to have his wive's consent for a vasectomy? You are trying to deflect the argument, but to play your game choosing to not be a part of the childs life or paying child support is a differnt choice is it not?

Originally posted by AzoriaCorp
16 week of pregnancy:
Your baby now gets the hiccups...

This is about legal rights. Not moral opinions. Abortion is legal. Any opinions about abortion are not relevant to this discussion, IMO.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
In your scenerio does the female have a choice whether he signs?

No. It would be the male abortion. He doesn't have a choice whether she aborts, either. It's equality.

Do they both have to agree on the absolving of the father's (deadbeats) rights?

No. They don't both agree when she absolves HER rights (has an abortion).

Only the male gets to absolve himself of the responsibility he knew doggone good and well could occur?

Incorrect. She can absolve her responsibility at any time by having an abortion. Is that the responsible thing to do? That's up to her.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


I have to agree with you here... Birth control is any control of whether or not a birth occurs. It's not called conception control... its called BIRTH control, so yes an abortion is a form of birth control.