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Strange. Does God wants us to rebel and sin?

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posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 10:41 AM
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Strange. Does God wants us to rebel and sin?

If you read scripture properly, you can only conclude that God wanted Satan to rebel or become God’s loyal opposition, .as well as God wanting Adam and Eve to disobey His command.

Let me first say that the only possible source for our moral sense, something we should all be trying to improve is the knowledge of good and evil. This makes eating of the tree of knowledge imperative to our elevation from mere dumb beasts.

Gen 3 5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.--- Talking snake.

Gen 3:22
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:--- God.

Col 1 15
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This would include evil, sin and temptation.

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Matt 5 48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

To do so we must know good and evil.

Gen 3 7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

To be saved, you have to be in peril. Scripturally speaking, that means you have to be a sinner.

From what I can gather from the above quotes, to attain God’s perfection, man must rebel and or sin. God wants us to have knowledge of truth of good and evil so that our eyes can be open to them. That is likely why He created evil for us, and His pleasure, in the first place.

This explains why, in Genesis, God allows a supernatural Satan to have access to a Childish Adam and Eve and who is there, on God’s behalf, to make sure Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge.
We all know that in a contest between man and the supernatural, be it Satan or some other, the supernatural always wins. God after all gave Satan the power to deceive all men to do good or to do evil.

God also knows this and sent Satan to start us up properly.

So rebel or sin my friends and repent because this is the key to knowing God; just as it was in the days of Adam and Eve. Eat hearty and be as Gods, knowing good and evil and let us pray that you only have to do small sins to learn.

The wages of sin are to be as Gods and our way of entering heaven.


Eh. Before you say that Jesus, a good Rabbi but a poor the chimera usurper God is the way is the way.

Psa 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:


Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

This you do with the moral sense that you gain only from knowing good and evil.

I know that most believers do not quite believe this way yet. most have yet to take their factlesss faith and add the facts to it and change their faith to true belief. This takes logic and reason. If you have some of this then if you apply it to the logic trail above, you will agree as your eyes will be open.

As a parting thought, if you think me wrong, if god did not want man to sin, why, according to scripture and tradition, are we all born with a God given sinning nature?
Can man fight his own nature?

Impossible.

Regards
DL




posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 10:42 AM
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The main focus of my thread is to show theists that they are reading the fall incorrectly and should return to the original reading of the creation myth the way the Hebrew and Jews did.

As man's elevation and not our fall.

Most have forgotten where our moral sense comes from and that to disobey a command to not go after it, is the right thing to do, and that we should revere Eve and not blame her for our woes.

Look at the harm to woman and mankind that has been done over time because of this idea of a fall.
Man has used it to oppressed women for 3,000 years.

If any woman does not get on board for a new interpretation of Genesis and the fall, then they loose any right to complain because they are letting men accuse them of wrong doing and are showing themselves to be sheeple instead of good people by not fighting this false belief.

Do women not recognize how badly mankind is in need of their initial wisdom that man has suppressed with brute strength?

They either have to rise up or stop complaining when man throws them down to # them over again and again and again.

I think that man has used and abused women long enough as our excuse for our own shortcomings.

www.youtube.com...

Women should put up or shut up. That is the moral thing to do.
Men should step up to their responsibilities and give women equality if they do not have the balls to demand it themselves. That is the moral thing to do.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Na I dont think God wants us to sin.When we sin we are choosing ourselves instead of God.God created the angels (good and bad) with free will too.Our knowledge of good and evil are finite.So are the angels. Gods knowledge is infinite.The only way to heaven (or be like God) is to acquire sanctifying grace here on earth. Us as humans can do this.Angels can not.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Paul addressed this in his Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 6, verses 1-14, which begins:


What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


This was to address something akin to your comment, when Paul noted in Romans 5:20 "Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

In other words, God is glorified by the redemption of a sinner, so should we sin all the more, so that there can be more and more cheering each time that we repent and are saved by our faith? Are works completely divorced from faith? But, as he notes, we are absolved of our sin with the expectation that we're not going to just go back and do it again. We "died in sin", so how can we "live in it"?

Similarly, James wrote that "faith without works is dead," which doesn't mean that you are saved through your own doing, but that if you continue acting like a jerk, for whatever reason you might have, your faith is hollow and you're demonstrating that it means nothing to you anyway. In other words, a lack of sincerity, which is necessary for faith to be justified.



posted on Sep, 19 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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The question is invalid. That is no GOD because if GOD exist then there has to be GOD of GOD must exists. It i never ending...

It is just waste of time to bring GOD into any argument. Unless you wish to kill time in cycling argument.



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Na I dont think God wants us to sin.When we sin we are choosing ourselves instead of God.God created the angels (good and bad) with free will too.Our knowledge of good and evil are finite.So are the angels. Gods knowledge is infinite.The only way to heaven (or be like God) is to acquire sanctifying grace here on earth. Us as humans can do this.Angels can not.


That is not really biblical but if you want to believe it then by all means ignore the bible.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Nothing about grace here but certainly something about all of us needing to repent and you will know that if God demands that we all repent, then we must all sin and that He would want us to sin first.

I know that faith usually drives out logic and reason so ignore the good use of those two attributes if you like. Play with your soul all you want.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Paul addressed this in his Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 6, verses 1-14, which begins:


What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


This was to address something akin to your comment, when Paul noted in Romans 5:20 "Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

In other words, God is glorified by the redemption of a sinner, so should we sin all the more, so that there can be more and more cheering each time that we repent and are saved by our faith? Are works completely divorced from faith? But, as he notes, we are absolved of our sin with the expectation that we're not going to just go back and do it again. We "died in sin", so how can we "live in it"?

Similarly, James wrote that "faith without works is dead," which doesn't mean that you are saved through your own doing, but that if you continue acting like a jerk, for whatever reason you might have, your faith is hollow and you're demonstrating that it means nothing to you anyway. In other words, a lack of sincerity, which is necessary for faith to be justified.


A good point that oliveoil should read.

I hope you read my reply to him with my view.
I hope that you too shall sin and repent and I pray that all your sins be small ones and that you need not do large ones to learn what God demands and knows that you will learn as is His will.

None can thwart the will of god and consequently we will all be saved so if you have any notions of a hell, you may as well discard them.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 20 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
None can thwart the will of god and consequently we will all be saved so if you have any notions of a hell, you may as well discard them.


Are you a Quaker or Calvinist? There are many who believe that the nature of God's love and grace will mean redemption for all, without exception, but I have a difficulty in accepting that as a blanket statement. To have no consequences for any action seems contrary to Biblical teaching, so I'm interested in hearing the theology behind this belief.



posted on Sep, 21 2010 @ 03:23 AM
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This of course assumes that God and I are seperate, although Jesus seems to say all the time, that God is everywhere and thusly what 'we' would call 'us'. Of course a tree is also God, so God eats of Gods own tree, prompted by God for God.



posted on Sep, 23 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Greatest I am
None can thwart the will of god and consequently we will all be saved so if you have any notions of a hell, you may as well discard them.


Are you a Quaker or Calvinist? There are many who believe that the nature of God's love and grace will mean redemption for all, without exception, but I have a difficulty in accepting that as a blanket statement. To have no consequences for any action seems contrary to Biblical teaching, so I'm interested in hearing the theology behind this belief.


I have no affiliation and my closest label would be Deist without a creator God. There is a Godhead though that is more of a cosmic consciousness. I forced my apotheosis for confirmation but as all of these things go, I have no proof to show. My focus is morals not dogma.
As to hell.You are right that it does not exist as no God worth His salt would create such an immoral place.

The logic is simple and you can dither it out yourself quite easily from a moral standpoint.
Just answer a few questions for yourself.

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell moral construct or not?

I come up with no.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 23 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by scratchmane
This of course assumes that God and I are seperate, although Jesus seems to say all the time, that God is everywhere and thusly what 'we' would call 'us'. Of course a tree is also God, so God eats of Gods own tree, prompted by God for God.


It is no so much that God is every where, it is more that God is only accessible with the minds of men.
Who else can put words to the will of God.

It is obvious that our first god was a man in the sense that he contacted what he thought was God and relayed the message. The ancients called it going into the spirit and in today's language, I call it telepathy.

Your view is more of the Gnostic view and more accurate than the Christian one.

This Gnostic theologian is a good one.

www.gnosis.org...

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 04:26 AM
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That's a good question OP.Well i'm not a Christian so i won't quote something from the bible,instead i will answer in the words of Al Pacino in the "Devil's Advocate":

John Milton: Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, #in' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

Well it's a point of view you could consider.If that god exists he's playing with his believers.



posted on Sep, 24 2010 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Phantom traveller
That's a good question OP.Well i'm not a Christian so i won't quote something from the bible,instead i will answer in the words of Al Pacino in the "Devil's Advocate":

John Milton: Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, #in' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

Well it's a point of view you could consider.If that god exists he's playing with his believers.


I cannot disagree and think Milton was being diplomatically correct.

For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing.
Fight on my friend. Not all religionist though.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

www.youtube.com...

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
www.youtube.com...

Jesus Camp 1of 9
www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL




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