Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-2

Originally posted by JunoJive
If, for instance, the roman civilization had been wiped out and buried by major catastrophe, leaving little surface trace of their existence, how would one know that this was a real place and not a work of romanticized fiction.

Besides many Roman constructions, we have also many traditions related with the Roman occupation of what is now Portugal, and we use some Roman names and many Latin words.

A civilization that had conquered all the area Atlantis is supposed to have conquered would leave many traces, like names that would be used on the North and South sides of the Mediterranean or words with a common root also on both sides of the Mediterranean, before the Moor conquest.

Maybe a topic for another thread, however one cannot dispute that humans have never been very good at preserving our history, artifacts, oral traditions, or otherwise.

Humans are very good at preserving oral tradition, even a month ago, my boss went to Cape Verde, and there he talked to some women that tell anyone how things were during the XVI and XVII centuries, and how the Portuguese brought the slaves from Continental Africa to send to other parts of the world.

reply to post by ArMaP


I think your missing my point but I don't feel like arguing semantics. Needless to say preserving oral traditions from the 16th century to present is not the same as preserving oral traditions from 10 thousand years ago. Most of the time the traditions are preserved due to the relative stability of a region, so that consistency will allow such preservation. As for the names we use, we can hardly trace back for sure beyond latin, yes, where naming conventions originated. Besides Mesopotamia etc. Anyway not as thorough a response as i would like but I'm otherwise engaged at the moment, I'll take some time to fully reply when I can.

Also, its fair to point out the fuzzy details available on something relatively recent, like Jesus for example. We can't really say anything for sure; oral traditions over a mere 70-100 years which later became written texts, are so mutated and distorted. Compound this 5x (2000 years x 5 = 10 000~)and you are dealing with the time frame of something like Atlantis. I know your going to argue that a civilization would leave a lot more behind than a single person who "supposedly" existed several thousand years ago. The point is not lost on me, I am however simply pointing out how unreliable 'facts' can be when passed on word of mouth even over a short time. As Slayer's example went, about the telephone game with children on a playground. What was embellishment/fiction vs what was the truth/genesis of the story.

As I said, I'm merely stressing the importance of not completely dismissing myth, simply because sometimes its the only evidence we have.

I do find it probable that, a lost civilization would be found on the coastal (now flooded) regions of ancient earth, simply due to the fact they would be the regions we would have settled. And there is, imho, enough evidence to show that the water level was in fact, low enough to allow this. The rest is of course, speculation.

reply to post by JunoJive


Oral traditions may be mutated and distorted, what I am talking about is their existence, or, in this case, their non-existence.

Sure, there would be several versions of the story, and we would not know which was the closest to the true, but we would have several versions, not one version from just one person.

That's what I am trying to say.

I completely agree in principal. I am merely pointing out that, as the myth is so ancient, it may have been widespread, and truly the last vestige of the legend was preserved by Plato after much had been lost. Otherwise I completely agree, the more variations on a legend the more we can assume the legend traveled around and was changed etc. But we can also use that to show the legend may hold more legitimacy since there are so many variations. Plato was the sole source of Atlantean myth, and as such, yes you are more than likely correct that, the legend originated with him.

Originally posted by JunoJive
I completely agree in principal. I am merely pointing out that, as the myth is so ancient, it may have been widespread, and truly the last vestige of the legend was preserved by Plato after much had been lost.

Except, of course, the "myth" is not ancient at all.

Only about 350 years older than the Jesus myth.

There exists no Atlantis "myth," in fact.

Which is what the other poster is trying to tell you.

Plato claimed Solon got it from an Egyptian priest. No such story exists in any Egyptian mythos from any time in that culture's existence.

We have a great deal of information on the various mythologies of the Egyptians, Greeks and others from the area.

No myth of Atlantis exists anywhere.

Atlantis is not a myth, nor is it part of any oral tradition.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


The Atlantis "myth" would not serve state purposes in the higher cultures so naturaly its not going to be handed down to the masses. Its about a corrupt superstate gone bad with its exsess and thus was destroyed by the gods. Now which of the great war mongering, slave driving, overtaxing civilizations that sprang up around the world later is going to allow this story of woe against such things to be passed down to the masses through their educational systems? Or even passed down to the educated classes in these higher cultures as a maxim of sorts against oppressvie civilizations considering they patterned themselves, with intent or not, after Atlantis? The scribe class we find in all the majior civilizations early on were functions of the state to perpetuate the order, offical historys, blood lines ect. Its easy to see how a story like Atlantis would not serve the aspirations of the state when we look at middle east historical superpowers for example. Such talk could be seen as sedition.

Originally posted by Logarock
The Atlantis "myth" would not serve state purposes in the higher cultures so naturaly its not going to be handed down to the masses. Its about a corrupt superstate gone bad with its exsess and thus was destroyed by the gods.

It would serve the people that were supposedly conquered by Atlantis and got their freedom back, it would be a good source of legends of how their gods restore their freedom and destroyed the big bad Atlantis.

The scribe class we find in all the majior civilizations early on were functions of the state to perpetuate the order, offical historys, blood lines ect.

You are forgetting oral traditions, those are only controlled by completely destroying all the people that knows the story.

reply to post by ArMaP



Youre making the point. It would be a good story to pass down early on. It would serve well the nationalistic identity. But at some point in time is going to become a pain if that culture became fasist and empieralistic. Just think of how the priests from the temple of Sais with their warnings of Atlantis would no longer fit in well with an ambitious government. Aesop's Fables were at one time standard learning in this country...but now in a world where nothing is absolute they have fallen in use.

Plato's Atlantis is a myth in the same way that Tolkien's 'Middle Earth' is a myth.

Should we be seeking the real Mount Doom? Did the Elves leave Middle Earth - Europe - for a new life in North American? And is this the origin of the Clovis culture?

reply to post by Essan



Clovis?

Here is an interesting thread on the topic.

Enjoy...
Ancient America Rocked!

reply to post by Logarock


Although I was only 11 years old when it ended, I know what is like to live in a fascist regime, and I know how easier it is to change a little some story to make it achieve the desired effect than to try to remove the same story from the collective memory.

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Logarock

 

I know how easier it is to change a little some story to make it achieve the desired effect than to try to remove the same story from the collective memory.

Now let's extend that collective memory being passed down word of mouth from generation to generation a few thousand years or say like 8 to 10 thousand years or more. How accurate would it be in your opinion?

Just curious.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Considering that there are Portuguese oral traditions that kept the original names (confirmed in written accounts) for 1000 years or more, that some Portuguese villages have names that go back 2000 years or more (with some story behind it), I think that there would be a relatively large number of versions of such an old story, with variations according to the place where those versions started.

Probably half or more of those versions would have the names changed, but the story would remain more or less the same, with the "moral" being reinterpreted if there was such a need, with the necessary changes to make those reinterpretations, but all those versions should be still close enough to be considered as having the same origin.

reply to post by ArMaP


Fair enough, but I was referring to a possible "Kernel" of truth in legends, myths and possibly the basses for many of the ancient oral traditions elsewhere in the world not just Portugal.

The time frame I am considering is in a range of 8 to 10 thousand years not a mere 2,000 to 5,000.
You wouldn't agree that variations in those stories could or have occurred?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The time frame I am considering is in a range of 8 to 10 thousand years not a mere 2,000 to 5,000.
You wouldn't agree that variations in those stories could or have occurred?

I do, I was not considering a 2000 to 5000 time frame either.

If there's a common "kernel" then it should be noticeable on the stories from different places.

Originally posted by ArMaP

If there's a common "kernel" then it should be noticeable on the stories from different places.

True, however over say 8 to 10 thousand years or more that kernel of truth itself could also be distorted say by regional disputes, language translations and or misinterpretations during the retelling of those stories etc. There are or could be so many contributing factors that by the time histories great game of telephone is played out in the present we may not recognize the similarities in myths, legends or oral histories even between neighboring states/territories.

Originally posted by Essan
Plato's Atlantis is a myth in the same way that Tolkien's 'Middle Earth' is a myth.

Technically Middle Earth is fantasy, not myth.

Unless you meant to say that Atlantis is fantasy just like Middle Earth is?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
True, however over say 8 to 10 thousand years or more that kernel of truth itself could also be distorted say by regional disputes, language translations and or misinterpretations during the retelling of those stories etc.

That's what I have been saying, it would be distorted, but I don't think it will be as much distorted as you say.

I don't see a reason for a legend regarding some other country (Atlantis) to be changed because of regional disputes; it's a story between Atlantis and other people that were once under Atlantis' rule and that got their freedom back, how regional disputes change that?

And there's no need for language translations, the language that is spoken in one country doesn't change overnight to a different language, it's a gradual process, so the story would remain the same.

And one thing that is kept in oral tradition is that there is no place for interpretation when you are a story teller, you must tell the story in the same way it was told to you, that's the only way for it to work.

There are or could be so many contributing factors that by the time histories great game of telephone is played out in the present we may not recognize the similarities in myths, legends or oral histories even between neighboring states/territories.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Logarock

 

I know how easier it is to change a little some story to make it achieve the desired effect than to try to remove the same story from the collective memory.

Now let's extend that collective memory being passed down word of mouth from generation to generation a few thousand years or say like 8 to 10 thousand years or more. How accurate would it be in your opinion?

Just curious.

Well I would start with the skeletal structure then put meat on it from there. Thats all that could be expected.