So, explain THIS, bilbical scholars (prove to me, it's not all hogwash)

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
[I put this in Aliens and UFOs Forum, 'cause, if you consider the subject matter...]

Here's one small tidbit from 'The Good Book' that deserves closer scrutiny - directly from Genesis:

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."\

(Man was not created until the 6th day. (So, this is not a fallible translation by man))

This passage was authored (or interpreted/transcribed) by someone with a very specific viewpoint - one who had a very primitive view of the 'Universe', that is to say, extremely limited - to be blunt, from the perspective of Earth being the center of everything, and with nowhere near the understanding of the solar system & cosmos that we have today!

I mean, we know how the earth was created with the rest of the solar system and universe - to suggest that the earth was created before the 'lights' were thrown in the sky (sun, moon, and stars) shows a complete lack of understanding of how things were created.

You have to at least get the beginning right, if you expect people to swallow the rest of the bull#.

Don't fight the science, man.

Counterpoint?

This is my first post, and you took the words out of my mouth. Judeo-Christian religions were founded in a time period where the world views were much different from the present world view. This needs to be taken into account when reading any Biblical passages. The term God has always been a way for people to explain the unexplainable; with a surge of new technology in the past decade we've made insane advancement compared to the last 100 years of human innovation.

So here we are at the dawn of the 21st century with institutions that are hundreds, even thousands of years old STILL influencing every aspect of our lives. Our world is becoming more and more global as time goes on, and you can either fear that fact or accept it. I think globalization leaves too much power to be able to be controlled by any good man. But that's what religion has come down to as well, power. Those in control don't want their citizens to be intelligent, systems such as governments survive off the problems of their citizens.

I almost wish the United States could institute an updated version of the Constitution with certain limits to government, as well as more detailed explanations of government roles, that we know would be beneficial now that we have been testing it out for 200+ years. With amendments that covered issues such as transparency, term limits, and maybe even getting rid of a federal bank.

I think White House officials wish that they could tell American citizens that we've known about "aliens," but that there are certain influences (like the fed) keeping them from going like Kennedy.

Also, I was thinking about writing a book.. Something like... the guide to human existence. A 21st century look on how life and community should be governed to achieve the greatest level of personal contentment in this life and the next (Christian idea of "Heaven") with no current theological bias.. purely based on fact and truth.. Just a thought

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
eden [phonetically and reversed] nude *yep, they were (reportedly) nude in the garden of eden

No offense, Esoteric Teacher, but all your wordplay examples are in English. The writers of the Bible didn't speak English, obviously. Plus when you reverse words then add and subtract letters like you do, you can make things say whatever you like. Hardly proof of anything.

Teacher (reversed and letters changed) =reached.

One could argue that the author of Genesis was somehow divinely given this information directly from God, but the author then had to use his own human mind and his own human experiences to interpret the information he was given.

I'm not necessarily a highly religious person -- However, I see no problem with the idea that the author was given the information about creation directly from God, but because he needed to use his own mind to make sense of it all, he therefore perhaps didn't get it exactly right.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
One could argue that the author of Genesis was somehow divinely given this information directly from God, but the author then had to use his own human mind and his own human experiences to interpret the information he was given.

I'm not necessarily a highly religious person (I subscribe to pascal's wager) -- However, I see no problem with the author being given the information about creation directly from God, but because he needed to use his own mind to make sense of it all, he therefore perhaps didn't get it exactly right.

edit on 9/14/2010 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Exactly right my friend. We ALL are given the information directly from the divine. It is that part of us which comprehends this existence. No Man can tell another how the other perceives and comprehends. Only we know that TRUTH.

I see God as everything. Some do not see God at all. It is each of our right and each of our TRUTH. The Bible is but one version of that TRUTH, and to some, it is as far as they go.

Who can change anothers will? Not even God. Therefore, none have that right by God.

Love all, Judge none, live in peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
...You have to at least get the beginning right, if you expect people to swallow the rest of the bull#.

Don't fight the science, man.

Counterpoint?

Again, I preface this by saying I am not necessarily a religious person. I'm just playing a bit of devil's advocate here...

...You seem to be saying that because the Bible may have gotten it wrong, that is somehow evidence that there is not a supreme creator to the universe (you say "don't fight the science"). However, just because the Judeo/Christian/Muslim view of the creator of the universe is wrong does NOT mean that there is no creator of the universe.

It just means that the bible doesn't necessarily talk about the real creator.

You seem to be mixing the idea of organized religion with a possible supreme creator of the universe. Our organized religions may not have anything to do with that creator.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

do you know that in the last 15 years scientist and archeologists have discovered ancient fossils that seem to prove that the first feathers on the planet evolved from dinosaurs.

Yes, I knew that, though there is a very good counter-argument against it, so it's hardly proof. However, proof or no proof, it still doesn't matter, seeing how the torah/bible puts man on the Earth in a matter of days. If dinasours existed long before man, then we obviously have a problem. Most Jews I talk to willingly admit this blunder and usually say something to the effect that men are sometimes wrong and the torah simply got it wrong. Most Christians on the other hand, say something to the effect that either science is wrong or their "days" could have been much longer, which again flies in the face of science.

--airspoon

Originally posted by airspoon
Yes, I knew that, though there is a very good counter-argument against it, so it's hardly proof. However, proof or no proof, it still doesn't matter, seeing how the torah/bible puts man on the Earth in a matter of days. If dinasours existed long before man, then we obviously have a problem. Most Jews I talk to willingly admit this blunder and usually say something to the effect that men are sometimes wrong and the torah simply got it wrong. Most Christians on the other hand, say something to the effect that either science is wrong or their "days" could have been much longer, which again flies in the face of science.

--airspoon

My friend, the Bible was written by Man. Man did not exist with dinosaurs. Therefore, he could not include them.

The Bible is the Truth of a Man, written from his divine perspective. You have your truth which comes from your divine perspective. We could learn much more from each other if we simply shared perspectives, and did not judge each others.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM
reply to post by SquirrelNutz

 

My friend, the earth is NOT the center of the universe. YOU are.

When that was written a man was describing all that he could see from his perspective.

Even with our great technology, we still see the universe through OUR eyes which takes the image to OUR brain and we do the best to comprehend it.

Everyone of us IS the center of OUR universe. We cannot perceive it any other way.

With Love,

Your Brother

A good explanation, and a pleasant way to put it. I don't buy it , but thank you, brutha.

This is one portion of the bible which has always intrigued me. Moses or whoever, writing that God put two great lights in the sky. Is this not enough to convince hardcore theists that the bible is a work of man? If humans didnt make any advance in science, this statement would still be valid today. The excuse bible thumpers give that the bible is quoted out of context is becoming boring. Let such people who hold views like that come out with a bible with the correct perspectives. Did it occur to anybody that purpose of the moon clearly shows a limit of the biblical god credited with omnipotence? If the moon was to give light in the night, why only half of the month? God could as well have made it to shine everyday? Just curious.

If you want to bake an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe.

- Carl Sagan

means the same thing!

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

No offense, Esoteric Teacher, but all your wordplay examples are in English.

no offense taken. per the Terms & Conditions we will only be discussing this in English.

thanks,
et

The writers of the Bible didn't speak English, obviously.

without too much of a wordy explanation...
wordy = wurde (phonetically)
wurde [mirror] ebruw = hebruw = hebrew

lose cypher? a cypher is a key to unlocking a code.

what else could "Lose Cypher" be translated or interpreted as?

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


I hope you aren't serious in your word games. They may be fun to play, but the only truth you find in stuff like "wordy" equaling "Hebrew", is the truth you want to see and place there yourself.

I am fully aware that English is the language of ATS, but it isn't what the Bible was written in, so I say the teacher "reached" again.

The Universe is written in code like a computer program.

Programmers write the code before they ever run the program.

If a "creator god" exists, he wrote the universe and it's laws before he ever "ran the program".

That's how "creation" as written in Genesis is plausible.

A "creator god" is as bound to the laws of physics as a computer programmer is to binary code.

reply to post by christinaV


AMEN!!!! First of all none of us were there.(in the beginning of time)...Plus, not many of us have been in space ,for that matter...We are not just getting are information first hand but way down the line of it...There is a creator, because nothing comes from nothing...So there has to be something...and yes we have come so far and learned so much...Just think what they will know in a hundred years(God willing humanity makes it.)They will probably laugh at all our ignorance...

Peace...Have fate!

reply to post by christinaV


The Torah claims that it was given fully written to Moses by God.

That's what it claims. Little known fact.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

 

I hope you aren't serious in your word games.

yes. yes i am. language moves in more directions than linear. it is only the linear minded who convince themselves otherwise.

there is truth embedded and encoded into the languages that are created by us. the subconscious realms of thought do impose themselves with the creation of words. i won't go into it too much in this thread, and in previous posts and threads on ATS i have already submitted hundreds of examples. i even got a way above top secret award for this very subject back in 2006.

so, yes. i am serious when i say that aspects of the english language move more than just left to right.

hope this clarifies my position on this subject,
et
______________________


edited to add:

there are thousands of years worth of examples of this, by the way...

Atbash is a simple substitution cipher for the Hebrew alphabet. It consists in substituting aleph (the first letter) for tav (the last), beth (the second) for shin (one before last), and so on, reversing the alphabet. In the Book of Jeremiah, לב קמי Lev Kamai (51:1) is Atbash for כשדים Kasdim (Chaldeans), and ששך Sheshakh (25:26; 51:41) is Atbash for בבל Bavel (Babylon). It has been associated with the esoteric methodologies of Jewish mysticism's interpretations of Hebrew religious texts as in the Kabbalah.
Atbash Cipher

from a book left out of the bible, accredited to Peter, the apostle:

XXXVIII. ..... .. . Concerning which the Lord saith in a mystery: Unless ye make the things of the right hand as those of the left, and those of the left as those of the right, and those that are above as those below, and those that are behind as those that are before, ye shall not have knowedge of the kingdom.

Source/Link:
www.earlychristianwritings.com...

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


I believe this is related to the new creation ultimately,

thessalonians-sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night

revelations-sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun

reply to post by LAinhabitant


Another fascinating tidbit that few are aware of is an awesome twist in the "Age of the Universe" argument. For years creationists banged their heads on the wall against irrefutable proof that the universe(from our perspective) is ~13.7 billion years old. They used to claim that biblical accounts only allow for a 10,000 year old universe. Of course to any logical mind this was ridiculous, and sapped any credibility from someone who thought this way. This paradigm of thought however set creationists back in the credibility department for decades.

How could the biblical account be true if there hasn't been enough time? Where is the 13+ billion years accounted for? We know the universe is old, no argument there, but why is there no accounting for it by the texts supposedly written by the creator?

It is a matter of perspective. According to Einstein's theories which have been validated over, and again time is relative to the observer. Time passes more slowly at the edge of the expansion of the universe, and much faster as you approach the epicenter of the big bang. Or in other words time passes more quickly to our perception in the older part of the universe, and dilates as space/time expands outwards.

A Dr. Gerald Shroeder, an israeli physicist has crunched the numbers, and had them independently verified several times as accurate. If you were standing at the epicenter of the big bang the universe to your perception is only a little over 6 literal 24 hour days old!

I think there is much more knowledge, and wisdom contained in the ancient texts of all the worlds cultures, and religions. We are just not smart enough to see it, and at times too arrogant to admit it.

reply to post by davidgrouchy

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
I've run the accretion methods
and it's bull dookie, colliding dust particles
don't even build mud. They build nothing.
Instead of running a lot of physics
I'll just prove it by analogy.

How many times do I have
to toss a ping pong ball against the wall
before it sticks?

That's right.
It _never_ sticks.

Accretion is not possible without chemistry.
Stickiness is a chemical property
that exerts influence on the
behavior of compounds.

And the theory on
how the earth
was created
is silent
here.

How does accretion make compounds again?

Oh

And thank you for conceding that one _can_
find the actual unvarnished word in the old book
if one looks hard enough.

David Grouchy

Right on



"God says get your own dirt"..

reply to post by icecold7

Originally posted by icecold7

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
[I put this in Aliens and UFOs Forum, 'cause, if you consider the subject matter...]

Here's one small tidbit from 'The Good Book' that deserves closer scrutiny - directly from Genesis:

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."\

(Man was not created until the 6th day. (So, this is not a fallible translation by man))

This passage was authored (or interpreted/transcribed) by someone with a very specific viewpoint - one who had a very primitive view of the 'Universe', that is to say, extremely limited - to be blunt, from the perspective of Earth being the center of everything, and with nowhere near the understanding of the solar system & cosmos that we have today!

I mean, we know how the earth was created with the rest of the solar system and universe - to suggest that the earth was created before the 'lights' were thrown in the sky (sun, moon, and stars) shows a complete lack of understanding of how things were created.

You have to at least get the beginning right, if you expect people to swallow the rest of the bull#.

Don't fight the science, man.

Counterpoint?

I mean, we know how the earth was created with the rest of the solar system and universe - to suggest that the earth was created before the 'lights' were thrown in the sky (sun, moon, and stars) shows a complete lack of understanding of how things were created.


u know this cuz uwere there when it happened wright?
u dont know f all

With man it may be impossible...

But with God all things are possible..

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.