Misogyny: Ruining the Female Male Relationship(esp. in the digital age), page 39


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 61 times


reply posted on 26-10-2010 @ 10:11 PM by mayertuck
reply to post by hotbakedtater

This is off topic, but you do they both do not have the same reproductive choices.
REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE
Female
Abortion
Adoption
Reproduce
Condom
Morning After Pill
Diaphragm
Withdrawl
Absitnence
IUD
Depo shot
Keep the child
Unprotected sex

Male
Condom
Abstinence
Vascetomy
Unprotected sex
Willingly pay child support
Willingly have a child
Withdrawl




Might of missed some, now if gender isn't an issue shouldnt both sides of the above quick and dirty table have the same number of choices Regardless of what column their gender is? Now do they?


edit on 26-10-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-10-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 26-10-2010 @ 10:17 PM by mayertuck
reply to post by projectreller


No it isn't all their fault, please do not disrepect females like that nor generalize like that.



reply posted on 26-10-2010 @ 10:59 PM by GeisterFahrer
Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by GeisterFahrer




You know how many innocent men are in jail on false rape charges?



I do actually. A fraction of the number of women who are sitting in jail for killing their spouses out of self defense.

Now do you have any idea how many men who have honestly raped a woman that was not either cooperative or conscious and are NOT sitting in jail right now?

Ask your buddies in a private moment. You will be surprised.



That is laughable. I would turn in anyone who was guilty of rape. There is no "male conspiracy" or "secret society of male rapists" in this world (well .... other than the Taliban).


reply posted on 27-10-2010 @ 09:38 PM by Indigogirl
reply to post by hotbakedtater


Gender should be inconsequential. Yes, I AM for equality between the sexes, but this has nothing to do with necessarily promoting androgyny. I couldn't care less what gender anyone is whether their biological sex is male or female, the point I'm persuing is that I strongly believe in equality between the sexes. In fact, I'd prefer it if we looked at all as individual human beings - sex should hold no sway one way or the other, it's about equal rights for all.


reply posted on 27-10-2010 @ 09:48 PM by Indigogirl
Originally posted by mayertuck
reply to post by Indigogirl


I believe that feminism is splintered. Those that want and strive for equality such as individual feminists and equalatarian feminists andf those that want female priveledge and power and do not want equality (radical and gender feminism).

As for inverting "patriarchy" i would argue that there really isnt a patriarchy that exists in this day and age. Yes there are still female specific issues that are being worked on and still need to be addressed. But the "ol boys clubs" of yesteryear are prety much gone. In my opinion gender and radical feminists do want to "invert patriarchy" even if they need to dig its bloated corpse up out of it grave to do so.

Now I have to ask would a "matriarchy" be a good thing, I would say nope because when power rests at either side of the spectrum then approximately half the population is being oppressded. It needs to be in the middle, other wise we have the issues that we have had in the past and are having now.


Those that do not learn frm history are doomed to repeat it.
edit on 26-10-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)


I think you make some fine points here, I really do. Yes, I believe that a matriarchal society would probably be just as damaging as patriarchy and that is definitely not the way forward, and yes, there will inevitably be quite a variation in political ideology across the board of those who would call themselves Feminists, but this is true within most political parties/movements.

I would have to disagree that the 'old boys' society, and that Patriarchy itself is dead. In fact I'd agree quite strongly. Patriarchy is so entrenched that we often can't see the wood for the trees, and I'm prepared to put this view forward as formed from my own personal experiences. No, I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush - their are many out there (thank god), who do seem genuinely to work with equality as their philosophy, and so it should be.

It is an interesting (and somewhat grusomely effective!) metaphor you use when you describe 'digging up the bloated body of patriarchy'. In my opinion, whilst I believe it was necessary for some of the more radical politics of the second wave feminist movement due to the political climate, I believe third wave feminism has come a long way since those days. Perhaps it is a generational thing? As you said, there are definite factions of any political movement though, and it's important to recognise that everyone is not always going to be singing from the same hymn sheet!


reply posted on 27-10-2010 @ 09:52 PM by Indigogirl
reply to post by GeisterFahrer


Yeah, I think you pretty much just illustrated my point with that ridiculous comment.


reply posted on 27-10-2010 @ 10:00 PM by mayertuck
reply to post by Indigogirl


I will say this I am more than happy to listen to your views and opinions. I may not agree fully on where you stand but you have my respect for not being one that talks about equality but works against it. It is refreshing to have you speak on this thread, and look forward to your input.

The reason I say patriarchy is effectivly dead is because the laws are in place to remove the policies that were put in place by it. That and the social "norms" of the day effectively keep it down. Now of course that there are still those that keep its ideals alive and refuse to come into the modern age, but they are more secular and on their own. I hope this makes sense.

And I pretty much agre about not singing from the same hymn sheet, why I do my best to not just say feminism and actually differentiate who I am talking about.
edit on 27-10-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 27-10-2010 @ 10:08 PM by GeisterFahrer
reply to post by Indigogirl


I am not exactly sure you got the point. Maybe you did. The first wave was absolutely necessary. The 2nd wave was necessary, the third wave was "hey, its a guy, lets cut his *enis off".

The fourth wave is more like the second wave.

The pendelum swings both ways. The third wave has resulted in a sad number of men who refuse to grow up.



reply posted on 28-10-2010 @ 01:54 AM by Indigogirl
reply to post by mayertuck


Yes, I do appreciate that you have taken the time to differentiate between the, oftentimes, significantly differing politics of various 'branches' of Feminism. It is indeed a refreshing change from people dashing in like a bull in a china shop and flippantly placing all beneath one universal umbrella! No doubt there will be many other Feminists reading these posts who will, no doubt, also appreciate that *double high fives*

Also, I agree with you that the government guidelines are certainly now in place to try and eradicate the sexual/gender discrimination which is an integral part of patriarchy. Although many cynics may well label it conscious naivety ( if that's not a complete paradox?!) on my part, I only wish that such inclinations were more innate to society :/ But there we go, politics is something the world will never agree on, so at least this country is taking positive steps towards equality between the sexes, and that at some point in the future, those opposing it will be well and truly in the minority.

Thanks for such an interesting discussion - it makes a really nice change speaking to someone with whom, although we may not agree on every issue, it is possible to debate things without starting a slanging match! This is what ATS should be about all the time.


reply posted on 28-10-2010 @ 01:59 AM by Indigogirl
reply to post by GeisterFahrer


If you read my post above, I think you'll understand the point I was making. As far as I'm aware, we are still classed as being part of the third wave Feminist movement and, frankly, I find your rather cumbersome descriptionof all 'Fourth(?!) Wave' Feminists as man-haters insulting and simplistic. I'm sensing a little anger too - have you had a bad personal experience with some extreme protestors or something similar? It seems that you have a specific axe to grind? :s
edit on 28-10-2010 by Indigogirl because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 28-10-2010 @ 02:08 AM by GeisterFahrer
Originally posted by Indigogirl
reply to post by GeisterFahrer


If you read my post above, I think you'll understand the point I was making. As far as I'm aware, we are still classed as being part of the third wave Feminist movement and, frankly, I find your rather cumbersome descriptionof all 'Fourth(?!) Wave' Feminists as man-haters insulting and simplistic. I'm sensing a little anger too - have you had a bad personal experience with some extreme protestors or something similar? It seems that you have a specific axe to grind? :s
edit on 28-10-2010 by Indigogirl because: (no reason given)


No axe to grind from me. It has always been my perception that 3rd (third) wave feminists have an axe to grind. The fourth wave feminists seem to be more peaceful and attempt to promote harmony between the genders.

The 3rd wavers = Nazis

The 4th wavers = Ghandhi

I will give a better example ... a man holds a door open for a woman as he was taught this was the polite thing to do by his mother.

3rd waver will say "F#ck you d$ckhead, I can get the damn door myself!! I don't need a man to hold a door for me!"

The guy walks away thinking "My god, what a B*tch!"

A fourth waver will say "Thanks sweetie!"

there is a huge difference.
edit on 28-10-2010 by GeisterFahrer because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 28-10-2010 @ 02:17 AM by mayertuck
reply to post by Indigogirl

Why thank ya kindly.

Im not sure we are moving in a positive step, in my opinion were moving more towards the opposite end of the spectrum, I know I will do my hardest to keep it in the middle and am glad that there are "feminists" like you that want the same thing. I certainly know it can not be achieved without people genuinly working toweards that goal. I can also fully agree that I wish it was acknowledged more in society both male and female issues. Nothing pisses me off more than hearing about someone who wants to not treat someone as their equal (either man or female) and I will do my best to address it either here or in the real world.

I completely agree with your sentiment, about being able to have a rational discussion on this issue. Its a hard emotionally charged one, and alot of people who have posted before on both sides only see things from their point of view or as you put it not seeing the forest for the wood.


reply posted on 29-10-2010 @ 01:30 AM by rusethorcain
reply to post by Brood


I'll be sure to ask them. They'll probably say something like, "But Josh, there are 16 of us and none of us have penises,


So.. your friends are eunuchs... Josh?

I was watching Americas next top model and this girl admits when she was 11 she was molested for a year and never told a soul. She is pretty typical. Most women will be abused over and over before they finally do speak up and tell someone. That counts as one time on the statistics you are keeping.
Date rape is reported in about 1/4 of the cases...if that many.
Abuse is tragic and also a little embarassing. "How can I be that stupid?" abuse victims ask themselves and so they don't let people know how dumb and vulnerable they were.
It's not their fault.
1 in 3 women are victims of sexual abuse and most women never tell anyone.
I know men and boys are victims too, but nowhere near one in three.
I know a guy who was a sex abuse victim who just started to get his life back but went into a depression like victims will and he never came out of it. Gerald froze to death all alone in a big house in Maine. He was only in his 50's but the teenager who abused him when he was a child of 8 or 9...ruined him for any future relationships with anyone ever.
Very sad. Yes, men are victims too.

But not 1 out of every 3.

Now, what is it you know I am going to say?


reply posted on 29-10-2010 @ 01:46 AM by mayertuck
reply to post by rusethorcain

Once again would love to see you source your stats. Please pretty please. Sadly like always you wont.

And with your twisted logic, because men might not be abused as often, they deserve less help? Really? Last I checked everyone who is victimized deserved to be helped regardless of gender. But I guess with your worldview, men are disposable like that so it doesnt matter no matter how high the stat would be.

edit on 29-10-2010 by mayertuck because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 29-10-2010 @ 01:57 AM by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rusethorcain


I take it from your posts that you consider one female life to hold more value than one male life. If one woman is criticised it is Misogyny, but if 100 men are stereotyped negatively it's no big deal because men are after all "the oppressors" of women.

Women will continue to be taken advantage of by the physically stronger sex until they learn to take responsibility and accountability for the poor decisions they make.

It's a sad world-view that women are beyond criticism for the behaviour they display and the decisions they make when men are held responsible for their actions and punished accordingly.
edit on 29/10/2010 by Dark Ghost because: reworded



reply posted on 29-10-2010 @ 02:51 AM by Indigogirl
reply to post by GeisterFahrer


Whilst I appreciate that you are distinguishing between the more and less helpful types of Feminism, I think you are still being far too generalized
Within each wave of Feminism (and it is important to acknowledge that there is a fair amount of cross-over between waves), there are many, many different factions of Feminist politics. 'Feminism' can actually be quite an umbrella term, just as 'conservative' or 'liberal' can span quite a range of extremes. I appreciate that there are individuals out there who would class themselves as Feminist, but who have quite separatist ideology. Although I define myself as Feminist, that does not mean that I will blindly defend the politics of anyone else who cares to class themself also as a Feminist.

The point I'm making is that I think you should be a little more cautious of tarring everyone with the same brush when you're casting aspersions over an entire political movement.
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