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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Death_Kron
Since you're the first to respond, I'll go from your answer:
You have defined God to be omnipotent and omnipresent. Does this mean that the aforementioned deity is also omniscient?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Alright, first question for theists:
What is God?
I can't really ask anymore questions, as Socrates didn't like to ask more than one question at a time, preferring to make further questions based entirely on the answers to previous questions.
If you cannot put forth an adequate definition than you have no idea what you believe in ergo there is no reason involved.
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
This is simply not true. You believe in many things that you can't describe adequately...
why must I have to accurately describe God to believe?
To describe something...you need a reference point...what reference point would you like me to describe God?
Can you describe how the color blue looks without using a reference point? Do you still think that the visual color blue "exist"?
And who said anything about reason? We are dealing in faith here...it's an exercise in freeing myself from the constraints of reason.
I do find it telling though that you choose to attempt to end the conversation when you don't get an answer that fits your needs.
Why is that? Are you unable to think abstractly in terms of concepts and not in absolute definitions?
Not really, pretty much everything I believe in has an adequate definition. Can't think of anything that doesn't have one.
And even if I were unaware of one, someone else would have one that I could easily access through either the internet or a book or asking someone.
Because you must be aware of your own belief.
Well, Cogito Ergo Sum (I am thinking therefore I exist) was a good enough place for Descartes to start. You could simply use any reference point you choose. It depends on your conception of the universe and whatever notions you have about your deity.
The concept exists and that which we give a label to exists. You can describe it various ways: through a direct reference point like "the color of the sky the most of the day" or a scientific way: 440–490 nm wavelengths of light.
And you lost me...
How is reason a constraint? Reason is the ultimate liberator in the world, freeing humanity from disease and squalor, lighting the way past the darkness of ignorance.
I'm not attempting to end a conversation, I'm just stating there's nothing to discuss and you're simply left with an irrational belief when you say you cannot define that which you believe in.
Please do not participate in argument ad hominem.
I'm quit obviously able to think of abstract concepts...I'm using a language, am I not? I understand mathematics to a certain level (got up to pre-calc, never decided to make it further).
I'm a philosophy minor, I deal with the abstract all the time.
Faith is not something that is 'abstract'
It's quite concrete: it's a solid and unchanging belief.
Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Perhaps the man who was struck by lighting was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
All disease, Viruses and normal are living.Example; when a cancer cell attacks a healthy cell, both cells are living.
Who is to say which cell gets to live and what cell does not.
Natural law takes its course. Having God intervene would be breaking natural law. God is a God of law and order.
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Not really, pretty much everything I believe in has an adequate definition. Can't think of anything that doesn't have one.
And even if I were unaware of one, someone else would have one that I could easily access through either the internet or a book or asking someone.
So all is known to you??? That seems a little arrogant...don't you think so?
I am fine knowing I don't know everything...or even that I don't know anything.
I don't feel the need to think everything I believe is fact and defined.
I am...at a concept level...which I gave a vague description of...because that is all I believe can be done. But you completely ignored the concept...I assume because it doesn't server your purpose of trying to find a flaw with a human definition.
I could use any reference point...but none of those may be the correct reference point to start from.
Yes...but I asked you to descrive the color of blue without using a reference point. Your first uses a direct reference point...your second (wavelength) tells nothing about how the color blue looks.
Could you tell a blind person who was about to get their eyesight back through surgery that blue is 440-490 nm wavelenghts and he will be able to identify it after his eyesight returns?
Would you like to try again? Pretend you are describing it to that blind person...describe it so fully with no reference points in a way that they know exactly what blue looks like.
I never said reason was a bad thing...but it is for sure a constraint. No one lives a perfectly reasonable and logical life...we are all outside of reason at some points. Unless you live your life like a robot...you are too.
Being able to free yourself from any constraint is a good thing. I'm not saying to never use reason...but to be able to not use it at times isn't a bad thing.
I can not define it...and I don't care if anyone thinks that my belief is irrational. I have never claimed it was.
Again...we do irrational things all the time...I just do one more than you do
I did not use an ad hom...I asked a question...didn't make a statement. I'm sorry if you feel like a simple question to you is a personal attack...I can't control your emotions.
Faith in an abstract idea...if it was a concrete idea...I wouldn't need faith now would I?
Let me ask you a question...start my own socratic method.
What is your goal in this thread?
No, I said all could could be made known to me.
I can access that which I don't know.
I also pointed out that the things in which I believe have an adequate definition, not that I necessarily am all knowing all on subjects in which I believe.
Well, I'm fine with knowing I don't know everything, but I would think it quite silly to think I don't know anything. I clearly know how to use the English language and how to operate a computer and type on a keyboard.
Then you don't care about the reliability of our water treatment facilities, electric grids, medical science, aerodynamics, internal combustion engines, farming techniques etc?
If you care about a single thing you believe in being fact and defined you should care about everything, should you not?
A concept is something you can shift around. It's called changing the definition. If I say that there is no God and someone says:
I believe God is love, I love my wife, therefore God exists.
That isn't an argument.
Descartes' starting point seems to be good enough by me. There's really no way you can contradict it.
Well, the way the color blue looks is a total creation of the human mind. Colors are merely wavelengths of light as interpreted by the brain.
Well, if I were to explain to him the progression of colors based on an entirely scientific point of view I would be able to. Especially if I explained the entirety of the visual spectrum with a point by point system.
For one thing, this is a topic for a philosophical discussion.
And if I have no reference points I can't even acknowledge that I exist or that the color itself exists.
This has no bearing on the existence of a deity. If you truly believe in an all powerful deity that created the universe you would consider yourself a living reference point as is the whole universe
I would disagree with a totally reasonable life being robotic. If I lived an entirely reasonable existence I would still be free to choose personal preferences and recreational pursuits. Being entirely reasonable would still leave me to make a good number of decisions in a non-robotic manner.
When would not being reasonable be a good thing?
I challenge that you merely have a wish then, not a belief. And just because you never claimed your belief was rational doesn't mean it shouldn't be subjected to challenge for being irrational. Irrational beliefs are what land people in insane asylums.
I try my best to not do irrational things. You're actively allowing yourself to continue your irrational belief.
You just used a recursive argument. Faith is an abstract idea because I need faith.
I just defined faith, but I'll be more specific. Faith is an unchanging belief in that which is irrational
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
To use the methods of Socrates to gain a better understanding of how people believe and possibly to arrive at some sort of truth about something.
So all could be known to you...but it is not...so you currently believe things on faith that the knowledge is out there?
Can you? I would think if you know that it is out there to access then you would already know it yourself. How do you know what is out there to access if you haven't already checked to see if it is there to access?
Again..there is much faith in that statement.
Again...you are putting faith in the things you believe in...because you don't have complete knowledge of them. I know atheists don't like that word "faith"...but you have just given many examples on how you use it.
So you "know" tasks that have been defined and created by humans.
As I would expect you to...because these are things that can be "known" because they were created by other finite minds.
I hold a similar belief...in that I know that I can get the right answer to any math problem...I know that I can programm a computer to do what I want it to do...but what does that gain me? What do I know about the universe or myself because of my ability to do these tasks?
Maybe the wording was off...but when I say I don't feel the need to think EVERYTHING I believe is fact and defined...I mean that I'm ok with somethings being defined and others not...hence...everything I believe is not fact and defined.
It does not meant that some things I believe are fact and defined...just not EVERYTHING. So I don't understand your questioning...I absolutely do care about some things being defined...and others not so much.
Well that seems like a bit of a false choice (false dilema/false dichotomy)...don't you think?
I can only care about all or nothing???
Does that honestly make logical sense to you?
A concept is something that you can shift around...you are correct. Most scientific ideas are concepts...so they can be refined and tuned when more knowledge is gained....do you not believe in scientific concepts either???
Or do you not think things in science are not concepts...do you think they have a definite definition and can never be changed?
Right now I have my definition of my concept of god...a higher being...maybe even the highest being.
The only reason you don't like this is because you want me to put forth a definition which gives god human attributes so you can try to "disprove" god.
Even if I did that, or someone else was foolish enough to think they understand god in a way that they can describe them using a very limiting english language, and you could find some flaw in the definition and prove them wrong...what have you accomplished?
Did you prove that god does not exist? Or did you simply prove that the person attempting to define god did a poor job?
This would be a wonderful starting point if I was trying to prove that I exist. And I have no interest in trying to contradict it.
Why is it that you think this is a good reference point to define god from?
Then why don't you do so..right here...to describe how the color blue looks. I would love to hear it.
Is this whole discussion not a philosophical discussion?
You know the color exists...you have reference points to verify that. We all know the color exists...and we all know what it "looks" like.
All I am asking you to do is to define it...with no reference point.
It is true that it has no bearing on the "existence" of a deity...I never suggested it did.
What it does have a bearing on is that you are asking people to define something that they have no logical reference point for. And I am just trying to show you the difficult in that.
Now you can say that I can use anything as a reference point...or myself as a reference point...but none of them may be a good logical starting point to define "god". You can say that since "god" created it...it should be a valid reference point...well how is a car a good reference point to describe or define the engineer that designed it?
Additionally...if you remember my definition of the concept I believe in...I never said anything about creating anything. That in itself is an attempted definition made by some other human.
I could allow you to use many reference points to describe blue...but if I don't give you a valid one...then it will do you know good. And this is what you are doing...you are suggesting reference points...but none of them may be valid.
So I'll let you try to describe blue again...and the only reference point I am going to allow you to use is a dust mite. So you now have a reference point...and you seem to think that any reference point should do...so you should now be able to describe how the color blue looks.
But if you can't describe a simple thing like how the color blue looks without using a VALID reference point...something that we all see everyday...we all know exactly what it looks like...then how do you expect people to describe or define "god"?
Do you claim to live an entirely reasonable existence? Do you believe you do nothing that is outside of reason?
Is it reasonable/logical to jump out of a perfectly functioning airplane?
Is it reasonable/logical to not look out for only your own interests?
Is it reasonable/logical to think that the cars will stop at a red light or a stop sign?
I could go on and on...our lives are filled with decisions and actions that are not logical or reasonable. You can justify or rationalize those actions and decisions...but that does not make them logical or reasonable.
You can choose to call it whatever you like...it doesn't change what I believe. I have faith in my belief...no more or no less...and I'm comfortable with that. Call it what you will...it makes no difference.
You can challenge my belief for being rational if you like...but you can't with 100% certainty say that I am wrong...just as I can't say with 100% certainty that I am right.
It appears that I am ok and comfortable with this...and that you are not.
If you believe that irrational equals insane...then you have a long hard road ahead of you in life.
Irrational things are done all the time...and many of them are done by some of the most successful and powerful people in the world...I don't see them in an asylum.
Something only seems irrational to those that can't see the rationality in it...there is no universal law on what is rational and what is not. Rational does not equal logical.
You may try...but do you honestly think you don't? Do you honestly think you don't do anything irrational (from someone else's point of view) that you actively and knowingly do?
I think you misread what I wrote. I said Faith IN an abstract idea...I never said Faith IS an abstract idea.
From your perspective...this is your definition of faith.
As with anything...there are multiple definitions of a word. I just looked up a few...ironically I couldn't find your definition anywhere. It seems that from others perspective you may be irrationally believing in that definition of "faith"...but to you it is completely rational...do you see how that works.
Here is the definition of faith that I think of when I use the word:
merriam-webster
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
So forgive me...but I will use this definition of faith rather than the one you just made up.
Truth? What do you beleive to be the "truth"? You won't arrive at some sort of "truth" from me...because I don't claim to hold any on this subject.
You seem very proud to be an ahteist...you have three threads in your sig about it...and a quote in your avatar about it.
What does being an atheist mean to you? Do you have "pride" in being an atheist? Is atheisim a big part of who you are?