Creationists, I can easily prove you wrong (even though you don't even have a theory), page 8

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reply posted on 17-9-2010 @ 01:55 PM by randyvs

reply to post by DizzyDayDream

prove to me please that consciousness doesn't exists... oh wait.. how do we know that E = MCsquared? someone must have thought it into awareness. .. soo proove to me go on, that my soul doesnt exist... im mean physically exist in this dimension... and prove to me that it's any less of a mystery, objectively, than any traditional understanding of a the non-material. Why can't we start seeing this physical as this spiritual. mysteriously physical, somehow evolved form quantum matter, into particles, into dust clouds, into stars, into planets, into organisms, into cells, into tissue, into organs, into complex ecology ~ into life, into feeling alive... how did matter RANDOMLY spark the most epic sequence of events leading to its own manifestation as something called a synapse, a complex biological nervous system, allowing sensations to occur, allowing thoughts to flow, allowing souls to flourish, allowing this all to happen...existentially, we cannot escape all this happening

A comment I have used from time to time, calls attention to how once you expell God from existence. It can
never end there. They have to expell other things like the soul. I had Sirnex to the point one time, he said, "Well
fine then love does not exist". He then left the thread.

reply posted on 18-9-2010 @ 08:56 AM by DizzyDayDream

reply to post by randyvs

Sounds like a troubled person, i shouldn't laugh really, i know about the dark side,... lights flicker in a blinding way, so naturally we look away, choosing instead to see only our darkness.... but the observers of darkness, still have souls, we've just been bludgeoned by cultural deference into forming meaningless beliefs, with meaningless consequences, as opposed to choosing a lighter path, of meaningful wonder where light is soothing, not blindingly intense.

reply posted on 18-9-2010 @ 03:18 PM by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Well madness, I don't know what to tell you. You know as well as I do that what you want is not gonna happen. God purposely made that sort of scientific proof impossible so that we would have to have faith.

Then why is there a plethora of evidence that supports evolutionary theory? Your deity may have purposefully hidden its own existence, then why did it make evolution look like the perfect scientific explanation?

Faith is an intangible, ethereal thing. Faith involves the soul and spirit, and science still cannot explain those things.

It may simply be that those things cannot exist.

Science can tell you about all of the biological functions of every human, but it cannot tell you why Jane is a real sweetheart but Dick is just a real A-hole.

Well, psychological and neurological sciences actually can tell you those things.

The essence of WHO each person is has always been about soul, spirit, whatever name you choose to give it.

I can't actually continue addressing all of these points here. You're going entirely off topic. We're speaking specifically about biological evolution. I do have an explanation for those points, but I can't keep explaining things that aren't related to the topic. I'll address them in the other thread.

That is why although we can understand how biological life works from the first division of cells, we cannot prove what makes an individual.

Except that there is all sorts of neuroscience that goes into explaining what makes an individual.

God intends for us each to seek out the basic truths about creation, and to look for Him as the root cause of it all.

For I'm hoping the last time. Evolution can survive in a world where there is a deity. It's a viable theory no matter what the metaphysics of the universe are.

reply posted on 18-9-2010 @ 03:30 PM by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by sidada
in answer to point one.
we only use a third of our brain and cannot comprehend the size of the universe so how can we comprehend the eternal existance of the creator

We use a lot more than a third of our brain. And the actual myth is 10%, not 1/3rd.
proof
more proof
wikiproof
last one

Secondly, this is not about the existence of a creator, merely about the formation of species through the natural process of evolution.

Originally posted by sidada
point number 2
the bible states that after the return of jesus the creator will repair the canopy that surrounds the earth. this was a reference to the hole in the ozone layer.not bad considering this was written several thousand years ago

1: Where does it say that?
2: How is that a scientific test of creationism?

Originally posted by sidada
point three.
darwin stated in the origin of the species that it was more logical that we came to be here by divine intervention.
the greatest scientist is the creator himself.

Quote mining...well, paraphrasing mining to be more accurate. Been a while since I've seen that one here.
He never said that. Please quote where he said it and please show me the context of the statement.

Originally posted by sidada
point 4
if a man with one leg and a woman who has no arms have a baby will the baby be born with no arms and only
one leg?i think not.

Those sorts of issues are typically not a genetic issue. If a guy loses his leg in a car accident his DNA still codes the same. In fact all you've demonstrated now is that you have an insane lack of understanding of evolutionary theory.

there was a scientist[i will research his name if need be]spent thirty years subjecting fruit flies to various enviroment changes and observed them change physical features,which made him become more and more convinced of the theory of evolution.after thirty years the next generation returned to there original apperance.
this experiment ended up dismissing evolution.
what a waste of a life!

How would that disprove evolution? I'm sorry but you'd need to actually provide a scientific paper that shows things. I doubt such a paper would be overlooked by the community.

So some guy came up with an experiment that proved evolution and nobody has heard of him? Very doubtful and very suspect.

Originally posted by randyvs
A comment I have used from time to time, calls attention to how once you expell God from existence. It can
never end there. They have to expell other things like the soul. I had Sirnex to the point one time, he said, "Well
fine then love does not exist". He then left the thread.

Then he was mistaken, as love can exist without a deity. Everything can exist without a deity. There are non-theists that have a conception of the soul.

reply posted on 22-9-2010 @ 07:47 AM by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by randyvs
A comment I have used from time to time, calls attention to how once you expell God from existence. It can
never end there. They have to expell other things like the soul. I had Sirnex to the point one time, he said, "Well
fine then love does not exist". He then left the thread.

Huh, I didn't know that you've debated a real life STRAW MAN! That's so amazing! I mean, he fits perfectly with your point and is entirely unable to answer you in a way that you don't create yourself. No wonder he couldn't solve a problem that anyone with a year long high school philosophy class could answer.

reply posted on 9-10-2010 @ 08:36 PM by Englishgent

as the great Bill Hicks would say

one word question

DINOSAUR???

you would have though they would have been mentioned in the Bible?

anyway....

if Jesus was divine, he might have showed it in a more profound way

"hey guys theres a thing called electricity, and oil can be used for lots of things (and all the other stuff we now know) , OHH and theres a whole land mass called America over the ocean, were i will be loved blindly forever..."

He could have really impressed us?

or is GOD testing our faith

the bible is a composites of the old testament (fiction for peasants) and 5 gospels ( a few chosen letters) chosen by the Romans 300 years after the fact, from many gospels, to try and help there failing empire

it worked for people at the time due to there hardship and pain that there life was, they needed something to hang on to, something to make sense of the death, madness they saw all around them

it then got taken and made into a control tool by people who realised the power of FAITH, and peoples fear of death and the unknown.

do you believe and have faith in books and ideas from even a 100 years ago? we look at people from centuries before and laugh at the lack of knowledge,(flat earth etc) imagine ape man seeing the moon or seeing Lightning, he had no idea of the reality, he was in fear. Knowledge breeds knowledge, its time for us to stop blaming our indiscretions on a evil or belief, take responsibility for our own actions, stop living in fear of a creator. grow up as a race together

why believe a book written by men who's world was a different scary place, and let it give you your reason to love and be altruistic, and not let you see the true beauty of this planet and our race

and the luck we have had, the chances of our existence are millions to one, for our earth to be in the sweet spot where we can have water and carbon life forms is MIRACULOUS...

but its not

we are that one in a million chance, people will use that as proof of GOD

but think of it like this

we our the one in a million chance, like the lottery winner

we are able to comment due to the fact we are our that one in a million

no GOD needed

theres the other 999.999 that didn't get so lucky

so lets be happy as a race, knowing we are privileged, not by GOD, but by chance

lets enjoy

and to quote Bill Hicks again

“The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people.”

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 05:50 PM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by Englishgent

Well, this isn't really the concern of this thread. As much as I disagree with religion, I'm trying to point out that religion doesn't even have to conflict with science on this one.

If you need a supernatural explanation for everything, I guess you can't agree with evolution. If you don't, science has plenty of answers for you.

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 05:53 PM by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet

Can you tell me why I should believe in Evolution then Jesus?
I would like to see how you work.

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 06:09 PM by lifeform11

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

3: You keep attacking different branches of science
Evolution is the theory which explains how the diversity of life arose, yet creationists/IDists often ask questions such as: "where did the universe come from?" or "how did life begin?"
That is equivalent to asking a computer scientist about the specific compositions and technical aspects of plastic manufacturing. They may know about it in passing, but it's not really their field.
Evolutionary theory is simply concerned with what happens after life begins, not with anything before that.

:

first of i am not religous, i am just stating that because you seem to be placed in a camp automatically if you have a different opinion, you are stating that evolution explains whats happens to life, not how life started?

then how does creation and evolution collide? creation explains how life started, evolution explains what happens to life after it was started.

what if, what ever created life made evolution a process in all creatures so that they adapt to their surroundings?
lets say i have a seed and i make that seed, but make it as primitive as possible but with the ability to grow and evolve? i could put the same seed on many different worlds and get different results. i would of created all life but at the same time evolution is fact.

i believe evolution but the above example is the only thing that stops me saying anything is nonesance, untill we know how the universe started and how life started, you know that thing that came from nothing, something that sounds equally impossible.

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 06:44 PM by lifeform11

is this the roswell museum everyone is talking about?

www.roswellufomuseum.com...

www.roswellufomuseum.com...

looks like a different setting, i don't think it is the roswell museum alien, unless there is more than one museum.

www.roswellufomuseum.com...

can mods delete this post please, i posted it in the wrong thread. i had this thread open still without realising. and posted here instead of on the one i was reading. doh.

edit on 10-10-2010 by lifeform11 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 06:45 PM by lifeform11

double post

edit on 10-10-2010 by lifeform11 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-10-2010 @ 07:33 PM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
Can you tell me why I should believe in Evolution then Jesus?
I would like to see how you work.

Um...I never said anything about not believing in Jesus, did I?
Believe in both. The scientific explanation for the complexity of life doesn't have to conflict with whatever personal religious beliefs you have.

I can discuss why you shouldn't believe in Jesus in another thread, just not this one.

reply to post by lifeform11

Originally posted by lifeform11

first of i am not religous, i am just stating that because you seem to be placed in a camp automatically if you have a different opinion, you are stating that evolution explains whats happens to life, not how life started?

then how does creation and evolution collide? creation explains how life started, evolution explains what happens to life after it was started.

Well, evolution starts with the first proto-life form. A very simple organism that was essentially a self-replicating unit of protein.

what if, what ever created life made evolution a process in all creatures so that they adapt to their surroundings?

What if whatever created life gave creatures horns so it could play horse shoes and then invented horses to have humans invent horse shoes?

Why? Because it sort of doesn't really make sense to add that extra bit.

lets say i have a seed and i make that seed, but make it as primitive as possible but with the ability to grow and evolve? i could put the same seed on many different worlds and get different results. i would of created all life but at the same time evolution is fact.

Well, then you still have to explain what created you. And then you have to explain what created that which created you. And so on. That's the problem of regress.

i believe evolution but the above example is the only thing that stops me saying anything is nonesance, untill we know how the universe started and how life started, you know that thing that came from nothing, something that sounds equally impossible.

We never ever say that something came from nothing. The universe started off as a singularity that rapidly expanded for whatever reason. We aren't sure about all the particulars, but you can't consider a supernatural explanation equally valid because the scientific one isn't perfect yet.

And if life started it wasn't something from nothing, it was something more complex from something less complex.

The problem is that we don't have the most thorough explanations on those two, but they're better than saying that an omnipotent being caused them.

edit on 10/10/10 by madnessinmysoul because: Added more

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 04:07 AM by lifeform11

the problems you propose for a being or thing creating life, ie: "well then you will have to explain how that person or being came to be" is the exact problem with the start of the universe, you say it came from a singularity that rapidly expanded, well were did the singularity come from? or whatever caused it? or whatever caused that? you either have to get to a point where there was nothing, hence the universe essential came from nothing from a process, nothing to singularity, to universe. or 'something' has always existed then suddenly from that by accident or on purpose came the universe, if we do not know what that something is, then how can we know for sure that it is not intelligent or even influenced by an intelligence.

all i know is science says its impossible that things can just appear from no where, it also says everything has a beginning and end so its impossible 'something' could of always been, no beginning no end just always there.

yet they are the only two ways anything could of 'started' things off.

edit on 11-10-2010 by lifeform11 because: to remove large qoute

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 04:38 AM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by lifeform11

Originally posted by lifeform11
the problems you propose for a being or thing creating life, ie: "well then you will have to explain how that person or being came to be" is the exact problem with the start of the universe, you say it came from a singularity that rapidly expanded, well were did the singularity come from? or whatever caused it? or whatever caused that? you either have to get to a point where there was nothing, hence the universe essential came from nothing from a process, nothing to singularity, to universe. or 'something' has always existed then suddenly from that by accident or on purpose came the universe, if we do not know what that something is, then how can we know for sure that it is not intelligent or even influenced by an intelligence.

You're basing your argument on a false premise, primarily that there was a point where the universe didn't exist. We aren't aware that there was a point where matter and energy didn't exist, though we are aware that there was a point where the universe in its present form was radically different. We may not know what caused the expansion of the universe, but that doesn't mean that positing an intelligent being is a likely explanation. There isn't any argument to say that something intelligent was the first cause of the modern universe that makes any sense.

If an intelligent being created the universe you're putting forth that something complex must be created by something even more complex. That means that the intelligence that created the universe is subject to having been created itself.

The simple fact is that there's no way to argue that the universe is a 'created thing',

all i know is science says its impossible that things can just appear from no where, it also says everything has a beginning and end so its impossible 'something' could of always been, no beginning no end just always there.

I'm sorry, but science doesn't say that everything has a beginning and an end. And it actually does allow for things to appear out of nowhere in certain situations like the quantum vacuum.

In regards to things that always exist, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed as per the first law of thermodynamics. If they can be neither created nor destroyed, why is it that they must have a beginning?

Again you're basing your arguments on a false premise.

yet they are the only two ways anything could of 'started' things off.

Nope, there are actually several ways things could have started. Cosmologists have put forth many explanations that require absolutely no intelligent agent. They're just trying to work out which one is right.

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 04:52 AM by lifeform11

so the matter and energy has always been around? i was under the impression they were created during the big bang which you said came from a singularity.

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 11:11 AM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by lifeform11

Originally posted by lifeform11
so the matter and energy has always been around? i was under the impression they were created during the big bang which you said came from a singularity.

They've been around in some form or another. The problem with how modern cosmology is referred to is that the "Big Bang" was a creative act in a vacuum. As of right now we have no way to prove how things were 'before' it happened, or even if the term 'before' can apply to the time period.

But science is trying. Creationism doesn't.

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 11:33 AM by sickofitall2012

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I noticed your mood was "Hope"
How do we have "Hope" if we have no soul?
Do animals "Hope"?? Nope.
Our brains are set apart from the animals, but why? Through evolution? If so, then why did no other animal or plant evolve in this manner, accident you say? How convenient for us.

reply posted on 11-10-2010 @ 02:18 PM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by sickofitall2012

Originally posted by sickofitall2012
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I noticed your mood was "Hope"
How do we have "Hope" if we have no soul?

Though this is thoroughly off topic from the biological scientific discussion at hand, hope is an abstract concept of believing that things can get better. I have enough reason to believe that things can get better for everyone if we work towards it.

Do animals "Hope"?? Nope.

Rhyming doesn't make it fact. I'm not sure if animal behavioralists have proven it to be one way or the other.

Our brains are set apart from the animals, but why? Through evolution?

Yes, through selective pressures intelligence became a dominant factor in our survival. Being more intelligent meant you survived longer and had greater chance to reproduce.

If so, then why did no other animal or plant evolve in this manner,

They didn't have the same selective pressures or they evolved in a different manner to cope with the same issues. Evolution isn't a fixed path, there are many different ways for organisms to adapt for survival.