Creationists, I can easily prove you wrong (even though you don't even have a theory)

Originally posted by DizzyDayDream
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

hahah palm

to palm.

nice to meet you,

perhaps you would like to meet my above posts.

lol

you didn't read them did you. if you did then re-read them.

As for Stephen Hawkings, I am nothing compared to his greatness, how dare you even attempt to imply i think otherwise. Stop misinterpreting my posts, open your eyes perhaps, and look at your closed mind. I have nothing but respect for the man,

have you read brief history of time?

or the universe in a nut shell?

if not then i highly reccomed you do,

He is responsable for most of my spiritual beleifs! haha wrap your eyes around that one. lol.. seriously though, read these posts properly, you may learn something about this topic.

Why do you type like that?
Yes, I did read your last two posts, they were full of the same god of the gap nonsense that gets paraded through this forum every other week.

reply to post by hippomchippo


Because i found your post amusing... why do you respond llike that?

clearly you didn't take in a word that i said.

Tell me about these "gaps" you speak of.. where are they, and what is their significance in regard to any of the points i made in my above posts?

ETA:

i just re-read your post and i know understand your question... lol, i OVERestimated you, i thought you were reffering to my style, not the typos which are a natural consequence of typing at the speed i type.

Im still waiting for you to adress any of the actual points i made relevant to the topic!

"profound synchronicities which clearly Unify the Universe. All mammals have warm blood, Five fingers and toes, two eyes and emotions science has no explanation for, yet. Physics is quickly closing the gap between science and religion... stars shine THROUGHOUT the Universe... look at the amazing common characteristics occurring from the prime movement till now.. what caused that first movement into existence? Intention, consciousness, a pure dimensionless energy"
Actually, It seems like I really have no idea what your point even is, at first I thought you were trying to argue that there has to be a god because we can't explain emotions, even though we can and have explained emotions.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
"profound synchronicities which clearly Unify the Universe. All mammals have warm blood, Five fingers and toes, two eyes and emotions science has no explanation for, yet. Physics is quickly closing the gap between science and religion... stars shine THROUGHOUT the Universe... look at the amazing common characteristics occurring from the prime movement till now.. what caused that first movement into existence? Intention, consciousness, a pure dimensionless energy"
Actually, It seems like I really have no idea what your point even is, at first I thought you were trying to argue that there has to be a god because we can't explain emotions, even though we can and have explained emotions.

Some references in my post may have been unfamiliar to you. So to familiarise yourself with concepts associated with this debate read the following:

Primum movens (Latin), usually referred to as the First Cause in English, is a term used in the philosophical and theological cosmological argument for the existence of God, and in thinking about cosmogony, the source of the cosmos or "all-being", and spontaneous generation of existence.

In book 12 of his Metaphysics, Aristotle used the phrase τι ὃ οὐ κινούμενον κινεῖ ("something which moves [other things] without [itself] being moved [by anything]")[1] -- i.e., the unmoved mover. When applied in his physics, this led to the view that all natural motions are uncaused and therefore self-explanatory.[2] Causality is linear, so causality or motion must be finally attributed to a first cause, which logically cannot itself be moved, i.e. the unmoved mover. To Aristotle the first cause is energy or energeia (in Greek) or actus (in Latin): energy causes motion. This is the foundation for the theory of actualism, a non-idealist philosophy of nature, science, logic, and mathematics.[3] Aristotle's actualistic ontology is a denial of "potential ontology" - that Being is the first cause of the cosmos.

Hence my point (actually someone else's point on ATS, written in their signature, i happened to read passing through a thread - while still considering myself to be an atheist! lol): "intention is the prime mover"

for me this summarises my point to a T. We cannot exist without a prime mover, i see this as something conscious, with intention - maybe God for want of a better understanding - lol.
wikilink

Originally posted by DizzyDayDream
Hence my point (actually someone else's point on ATS, written in their signature, i happened to read passing through a thread - while still considering myself to be an atheist! lol): "intention is the prime mover"

for me this summarises my point to a T. We cannot exist without a prime mover, i see this as something conscious, with intention - maybe God for want of a better understanding - lol.
wikilink

Oh, the first cause argument.
So, what created this consciousness that created the universe? Or has it always been?
In that case, why can't the universe have always been?

reply to post by hippomchippo


aaarghhh i thoughts this was coming...

into the rabbit warren we fall...

have you ever played that classic PC game Pong? This is about to go back and forth in much the same way... though perhaps not... i am very good at this game i must warn you.

First i'd like to thank you for addressing my post with a valid refutation of my logic *

However, may i kindly ask you to re-read my previous posts before you responded to them, and perhaps find the answer to that question there..

or to summarise briefly here.. i find it too mysteriously beautiful to be a random sequence of self organisation. Its the clock-maker theory, yes. And you're right for asking about the mystery of the prime mover... ping, then pong, this could go on for years... we know scientifically that energy is the fundamental ingredient of matter, because E=MCsquared, so what im arguing is, this energy of the cosmos IS god, but i think also that god transcends this realm and resides permanently in only one place.. in my opinion the only non-dimensional manifestation of universal energy - his heart...the prime-location of the prime movement, as i said in an earlier post, everything else is fractalised downwards into infinity from that place.

That is my belief. Though i understand it is only a belief, and you are free to believe the opposite to be true, because there are in my opinion equally valid points for suggesting that matter is only conscious in our form as living organisms, though for me this makes little sense because our forms have existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fractions fraction within a decimal points fraction point in the context of the time our universe has existed before life ever evolved and after life has ceased to be possible in this universe.

Originally posted by DizzyDayDream
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

aaarghhh i thoughts this was coming...

into the rabbit warren we fall...

have you ever played that classic PC game Pong? This is about to go back and forth in much the same way... though perhaps not... i am very good at this game i must warn you.

First i'd like to thank you for addressing my post with a valid refutation of my logic *

However, may i kindly ask you to re-read my previous posts before you responded to them, and perhaps find the answer to that question there..

or to summarise briefly here.. i find it too mysteriously beautiful to be a random sequence of self organisation. Its the clock-maker theory, yes. And you're right for asking about the mystery of the prime mover... ping, then pong, this could go on for years... we know scientifically that energy is the fundamental ingredient of matter, because E=MCsquared, so what im arguing is, this energy of the cosmos IS god, but i think also that god transcends this realm and resides permanently in only one place.. in my opinion the only non-dimensional manifestation of universal energy - his heart...the prime-location of the prime movement, as i said in an earlier post, everything else is fractalised downwards into infinity from that place.

That is my belief. Though i understand it is only a belief, and you are free to believe the opposite to be true, because there are in my opinion equally valid points for suggesting that matter is only conscious in our form as living organisms, though for me this makes little sense because our forms have existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fractions fraction within a decimal points fraction point in the context of the time our universe has existed before life ever evolved and after life has ceased to be possible in this universe.

edit on 16/9/2010 by DizzyDayDream because: spelling

You think that energy is god based on nothing but speculation, and poor speculation at that I might add.
It really is no evidence at all for a God or Creator.
I find it possible that there is a creator, but I rely on evidence, not hunches to form massive decisions such as this.
It's much easier to believe that the universe has simply always been than it is to add an unnecessary being into the mix, no?

reply to post by hippomchippo


Adding an unnecessary "being" into the mix!?

haha, what if god had felt the same way about you or the enviromental variables he set into motion allowing a high possability that life would occur on this planet in this amazing way!?

And btw this isnt some "massive decision" lol.. your ego might get in the way making you think for some reason logical possiabilities are a massive deicision... my advice to you is, UNlearn all religious understandings you've ever known about God. For me, the fear propogated about the divine consciousness is truly the most devastating blow for the human spiritual development. He is all loving, stop worrying, its nothing to be scared of.. i personally find the Void a scarier thought. Though, for me i no longer beleive a void is possible,,, largely through choice because that rabbit hole is literally infinite, and may lead to severe psychosis if you spend long enough in its contemplation. The finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite, that is what we as humans must learn to accept and appreciate here. There is infinity, in my opinion driven by the love of the creator, who allows for dimensions to form, or perhaps creates them through thought, seeing as all energy is connecte din the universe i find it difficult to beleive that even though matter forms itself in complex ways ie our minds, the universal connected energy (fact) defies logic if we assume it hasn't alreasy by now formed itself into some form of consciousness,,, which it has through us, but i too think it has everywhere within everything, due to the fact that it IS everything... energy in the universe is Interconnected! how is it possible to remain unaware of its own existence!?

[The Secular Genesis ; 1.bp.blogspot.com...]


In the beginning a probability density created the Multiverse and this Universe. This universe was without form and void and the black hole was hovering over space-time. Then an instability point was reached via Hawking radiation causing a big bang and terratons of electromagnetic and nuclear radiation! And over eons of time there formed matter within the space-time and the matter separated out into planets and stars and galaxies within the space-time.

At about 8 billion years ABB (after big bang) the Earth was formed and there was RNA and single celled photosynthesizing organisms and there was fusion in the stars to the third generation, and it was good! Then, by the forces of evolution, the cells gradually turned into plants and animals of all kinds over millions of years. Then came man and the hominid species, the first intelligent life with the capability of rational thought, and mankind was to cultivate the Earth and conquer the forces of nature, and so it happened. And it seemed as though the rest of the universe was sleeping or non-evolved yet because it was taking so long for evolution to happen for the emergence of mankind and there was no other signs of life to be detected in the universe either, so mankind dreamed up the spiritual realm and gave up on the pursuit of knowledge for a millennium, which thereby plunged mankind into the depravity of the dark ages and nearly brought the complete extinction of all of humanity....

[Alien Artificial Intelligence ; 3.bp.blogspot.com...] could very well be what theists think of as god. If the universe is much older than it is commonly believed then evolution would have a lot longer time to occure, there are probably alien civilizations that evolved into pure mathematical abstraction a long time ago. Who is to say they, type 3 civilizations that is, don't exist and that they don't design things on a grand scale?

reply to post by quantum_flux


Blaming sprituality in general, especially my understanding, for the Dark ages is seriously a low blow.

Guess where i went recently ~ The Science Museum.

the exhibition was called 1001 wonders of the ancient Muslim world. Showcased were inventions of remarkable scientific significance many of which are still being used today in all fields of science! By far the highlight of the exhibition was a video they showed in which a man asked a curious group of children "have you heard of the Dark Ages" to which he received a resounding "yes" from the children.. anyway he went on to illustrate beautifully in the film how during the very same period as our "dark ages" the eastern Spiritual and Religious nations across Asia were experiencing, and i quote "A golden age of scientific discovery"

reply to post by hippomchippo

repetition of my most salient point so far (just for the sake of significance:

matter forms itself in complex ways ie our minds, the universal connected energy (fact) defies logic if we assume it hasn't already by now formed itself into some form of consciousness,,, which it has through us, but i too think it has everywhere within everything, due to the fact that it IS everything... energy in the universe is Interconnected! how is it possible to remain unaware of its own existence!?

reply to post by quantum_flux




.......... now THAT IS very very profound ... hahaha thank you for making me feel like i haven't wasted my time in this thread.

reply to post by DizzyDayDream


The catholic christian church killed people for making scientific discoveries. It was the brave folks who stood up to that religious beaurocracy and published their discoveries who changed the world for the better.

Originally posted by quantum_flux
reply to post by DizzyDayDream

 

The catholic christian church killed people for making scientific discoveries. It was the brave folks who stood up to that religious beaurocracy and published their discoveries who changed the world for the better.

Changed the Christian world you should say. Certainly an irrelevant point for this thread, can we cease the derailment?

ETA: i apologise quantum flux, ive just realised that i addressed hippomchippo in the context of a reply to your post, thinking i was stil talking to hippomchippo, lol, ....yea,,, he seemed to just disappear after that one i quoted in the reply to your post. lol

reply to post by sickofitall2012


Absolutely nothing

I have just read through this thread and let me say that I totaly feel the OP's frustration. He/she has stated throughout that he/she is not trying to disprove a creator. Yet the only arguements opposing evolution tend to be of a religious nature. Doesnt anyone have a refutation that is scientifically valid? let me answer that, no. You know why ? because evolution is a fact. period. end of story. Creationism is not science, ID is not science. There is no scientific method behind thier arguments and you cannot refute scientific observations with philisophic arguements. There are currently no competing scientific theories.

let me just state for the record that I do believe in God. But I am not naieve enough to think that I can prove it, nor do I need to. I CHOOSE to believe it because it enriches my life not because there is proof or even evidence either way. And evolutionary thoery does not in any way threaten my belief in God. There is this misconception among primarily American christians that the two things are mutually exclusive when in fact nothing evolution has to say about how life progresses on this planet even attempts to disprove the existence or non existence of god. It is simply a theory to explain how life forms change over time. I dont even understand why there is such a challenge to this.

Evolution = change over time. Face it people, it has happened, and it is still happening, ITS A FACT!!
If you can present SCIENTIFIC evidence to disprove this be my guest.

in answer to point one.
we only use a third of our brain and cannot comprehend the size of the universe so how can we comprehend the eternal existance of the creator

point number 2
the bible states that after the return of jesus the creator will repair the canopy that surrounds the earth. this was a reference to the hole in the ozone layer.not bad considering this was written several thousand years ago

point three.
darwin stated in the origin of the species that it was more logical that we came to be here by divine intervention.
the greatest scientist is the creator himself.

point 4
if a man with one leg and a woman who has no arms have a baby will the baby be born with no arms and only
one leg?i think not.
there was a scientist[i will research his name if need be]spent thirty years subjecting fruit flies to various enviroment changes and observed them change physical features,which made him become more and more convinced of the theory of evolution.after thirty years the next generation returned to there original apperance.
this experiment ended up dismissing evolution.
what a waste of a life!