Revelation; The seven churches (have been promised)

reply to post by Michael Cecil

a discussion of things which you do not see in your Bible; but which are there nevertheless.

I am somewhat familiar with what you are saying here. I know there are layers under the writings. What are the means you have taken to see this? Also, if you are not seeing this by the Spirit of God and this is something you have accomplished on your own, how can you know for certain that you are not seeing these layers by a familiar spirit?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
... what matters is what the word means in the context of the writing of Revelation.



... Christ is writing in these letters to communities of people belonging to Christ and encouraging them to remain loyal to Christ, or rebuking them for failure to remain loyal to Christ.

Disagree with your attempt to formulate 'communities' instead of 'individuals'...(as few are saved in numberous verses)

but above & before that discussion... I have it that the Vision in Revelation is complete in It's own context...
IOW Revelation is a complete unit & does not rely on support or correspondences/explainations from other verses in the scriptures.

Pretty much like Daniel... sealed until the final days... Revelation does not reflect or depend upon previous writings...it is its own source & finality... to be deciphered, revealed, when the end-times generation has opened eyes. (probably by that generations own devices & NO divine intervention.

kapish?

reply to post by St Udio


here are a few that seem to rely or correspond after just a quick search,

jeremiah-will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.

revelation-all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

isaiah- I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

revelation-He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

hebrews-By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

reply to post by nlouise


Certainly, none of my writings could have been accomplished on my own.

I received the Vision of the "Son of man" and the Revelation of the "resurrection"; both of which were also received by John.

But, at the same time, my writings are also possible only because I have met in this life, people with whom I have been very closely associated in other lives, who also had a Knowledge of these Revelations, as I explain in detail, through the lyrics of songs, elsewhere.

Oh, by the way, the Revelation of John was written 'backwards' inasmuch as the Revelation of the "resurrection" Reveals the Vision of the "Son of man" which is described in the opening passages: Revelations 1:7.

The Revelation of the "resurrection" is very cryptically referred to in Revelations 20:12 "...while the Book of Life was opened, and other books were opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives..." (not life, singular)

This is a cryptic reference to the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

Furthermore, there is a Dead Sea Scroll which refers to the "Three Books" which are the same as the Three Phases of the War of the Sons of Light; they consist of the Book of the Law, the Book of Life, and the Book of Truth.

It is no mere coincidence, then, that there are three monotheistic religions.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Michael Cecil


I am asking you this because I have also read a post on here from someone (kabbalist) on this board mentioning these layers also. I was stunned at first because I also saw these layers back in 1989 for a period of three months and I am not into anything esoteric. I spent many hours in prayer with God and he allowed me to see a manifestation of it, and I must admit it was mind-blowing, for lack of a better term. There were layers within layers of understanding, which is the only way for me to describe it. It was like the Bible was reading to me, but things that weren't on the pages in the natural sense. I had no idea anything like this was possible. I know that I saw this by the Spirit of God, and not through any other means.

I don't recall reading anything that contradicted what I believe now as a Christian. I just recall that it was meanings with meanings, stories within stories, and very very deep. Not something that I am able to see today.

I am asking you by what means you see what you see, because I don't think you and I believe the same things, but it amazes me that you can see this also, if what I have described is even the same thing. Have I described what you are talking about accurately, or are we talking about 2 different things?

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
The Revelation of the "resurrection" is very cryptically referred to in Revelations 20:12 "...while the Book of Life was opened, and other books were opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives..." (not life, singular)

This is a cryptic reference to the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

Nonsense. "Many people", one life each, adds up to "many lives".
There is no suggestion, at the end of Revelation, that any of the people in this judgement scene had any subsequent lives. In fact it is specifically stated in the next chapter that there shall be "no more death".
Conversely, there is no suggestion in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible that anyone had a life previous to this one.
In short, the Bible does not support, in either direction, any theory of a series of lives.

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
I would suggest that you join me in a discussion on the "Philosophy and Metaphysics" forum about the 3 dimensions of consciousness in which there can be a discussion of things which you do not see in your Bible;

Nothing stops you from starting a thread of that knid and engaging the entire ATS community in the discussion.
Why do you need me to join you there?
For the moment, there is a time issue- as you know, I'm engaged in a long-term project of interpreting Revelation.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Let me quote the words of Jesus from the Apocalypse of Peter:

"Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they will boast that the mystery of Truth is theirs alone."

I have started a thread on the "Conspiracies in Religions" forum on this topic, just in case you might be interested (not).

It is now becoming quite clear to me that your goal is not, in any way, the pursuit of the Truth; but merely the pursuit of your ambition to be looked upon by others as having a Knowledge of the Revelations received by John despite the fact that you have not received any Revelations at all.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Gaussq
Who said Revelation is about the Christian church?

The fact that Revelation is a book within the Christian Bible says that Revelation is about the Christian church.
The fact that Revelation is centred upon the person of Jesus Christ says that Revelation is about the Christian Church.
The Bible as a whole relates only to the Biblcal Creator God, in which Falun Dufa dioes not believe.
The New Testament, including Revelation, relates only to the person of Jesus Christ, in whm Falun Dufa does not believe.
A church is an assembly of people believing in Christ- that is what the word means.
Since Falun Dufa does not believe in Christ, it cannot be any kind of church.
From the viewpoint of Biblical revelation, it counts as a false religion, published by false teachers.
Therefore the only place for Falun Dufa in Revelation would be as part of the golden cup of "abominations" being offered by the Harlot of Babylon, or in connection with the work of the "foul spirits like frogs" mentioned in ch16.
Or perhaps your leader is a possible candidate for the role of Antichrist.

So your attempts to advertise your religion in your own threads have been such a dismal failure that you have decided to hitch a free ride on a Christian topic instead and do your advertising there?
So your teaching is now going to have a kind of parasitical existence on somebody else's thread?
Just don't expect to be made welcome.

edit on 14-9-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

This is about bringing my light into your discussion, what is the seventh church really? Why not trying to find it with a pair of open eyes?

I try to use many sources to make sense of our world today. I really believe we are at the endtimes and want to make sense of it and apply the bible information on our world today. The seventh church is the church that will take over the world, maybe we can agree on that?

Anyone thinks "Christian church" will take over the world today?

There is alot of moral corruption in church today and Church has nothing to do with Jesus teachings. Church is about tradition, politics and money nowadays. People go there because they appreciate the religious setting and the tradition, it has nothing to do with self-cultivation anymore. All upright religions have the same original objective, to make it possible for people to cultivate into Gods.

Unfortunately this objective has been completely buried over time in most religions. So now there is no religion that can save people anymore. So "Christian Church" could never ever take over the world today, it is too bad. And Jesus has nothing to do with it.


The bible still can hold some truth eventhough Church is corrupted.

Each bible believer needs to explain to him/herself where the Eastern Kings that will take over the world are and the 200 million soldiers mentioned in the Bible? Those questions Swedenborg answerred perfectly well with Jesus as his direct teacher. Read his books and you know Falun Dafa is exactly what the Bible and Revelation Cptr talk about.

First off, who created "Church"? Everyday people with everyday people´s motives(desires, emotions) and different enlightenment levels. Not Jesus. So you take Church as some kind of truth while Jesus thinks church has lost almost every connection to his teachings(read Swedenborg). Jesus was a self-cultivator who cultivated his body(how do you think he could walk on water? He must absolutely work on his body) and mind and constantly increased his level.

Everyone who wants to become a God must do it this way, there is no shortcut no matter how much gold they show off in Rome.

And I made a mistake above, Edgar Cayce said "True Christianity" would have its cradle in China during the 1990s. Not "Church Christianity"(as you perceive it), two distinctly different things.

As we all know, since about 1700 years christianity was corrupted by primarily the Catholic church and then many other "modern Churches". When Church took away all power from the churchgoers and told them that "Faith" is enough to go to heaven, that is when church went all astray because nobody could make sense anymore.

Faith is just a foundation to be able to start improving yourself, without improving yourself in daily life faith is useless. All upright religions are about achieving enlightenment and the only way is to improve yourself in daily life. That is why after you confess a sin you should not repeat the mistake, or else it is useless to confess and your level is the same!


Christianity after the Gnostics dropped down to an extremely low level, far inferior to Buddhism which has a much more clear concept of many things like hell, heavens, reincarnation etc etc. Still Buddhism has also become corrupted and has nothing to do with FD whatsoever.


FD(Master Li´s teachings) sees Jesus as a fine, upright God, the son of Yahweh. Jesus is at Tataghata level and Yahweh is a few times stronger than him.

Jesus did not write the bible or create the Church, Jesus(like Buddha Sakyamuni) had a few thousand followers in his lifetime and then some monks, saints etc wrote down what they rememberred from his teachings.

In FD one follows Master Li´s teachings(cultivate your body, mind and soul by yourself in whichever environemnt you want, no worshipping is needed, just be a good person, work hard on yourself and you will get what you deserve) of course but we say that the Bible is an upright document.

All upright religions have a prophecy about the end times. During the end times all the world´s people are supposed to be judged, not just Christians but everyone. So the Christians are going to be judged, just like Buddhists, Moslems, Jews, atheists etc.

I use to ask people who study the bible, who are the Kings from the East in Revelation Cptr?.. Very quiet...

Then we go to Eddan, the viking myth: "China is the center of the earth, where the most wisdom exists." "Asatro" means "Asia belief", always they want you to look to China in the old Viking religion. Coincidence?..

The Korean endtimes prophecy:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Udumbara flower prophecy(from bible too):

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Emmanuel Swedenborg(the last prophet of Jesus) told us alot about the apocalypse and True Christianity:

It is an absolute necessity that God should manifest Himself, and thereby cause Himself to be acknowledged, and after acknowledgment should inspire man with His Divine influence, and by this, received in the heart, lead him at length even to Himself in heaven; all which cannot possibly be effected except by instruction. Must not also an emperor, and a king, first cause himself to be acknowledged and crowned, before he enters on his government?

“True Christian religion”

“This coming of the lord which is his second coming, is taking place in order that the evil may be separated from the good, and that those who have believed and do believe in him, may be saved, and that from them a new angelic heaven and a new church on earth may be formed; and without this, no flesh could be saved.”
“True Christian religion”

“He will do this by means of a man, who is able not only to receive these doctrines in his understanding but also to publish them by the press.”
“True Christian religion”


Above we can see the Lord is going to incarnate down here as a man and spread his teachings across the world. He will surpass all of the former religions in terms of the scope of the spread of his teachings. He will attract large volumes of people very fast and his doctrines will be superior to any former doctrines. The believers in him will form the new angelic heaven and a new church(the seventh church) on earth.

By way of exclusion, there never was a spiritual movement attracting more than 100 million people across the globe in a few years. Never ever.

The same movement which was then persecuted in July 1999 by the Dragon(the CCP) as the prophecies all have it. The coming seventh church has been groomed for 18 years now and its doctrines are here to stay, they are all free of charge and each person on this globe can access them freely over the web and start working on him/herself with the help of the mind and body cultivation. Many secrets are revealed in the scriptures, the person who gets to read them now is truly lucky.

I will add in another thread some interesting stuff about how Christian religion relates to self-cultivation according to Master Li.

PS: Apocalypse explained(directly from Jesus to Swedenborg):

www.sacred-texts.com...

Originally posted by St Udio
Revelation is a complete unit & does not rely on support or correspondences/explainations from other verses in the scriptures.
Revelation does not reflect or depend upon previous writings...it is its own source & finality.
kapish?

Yes, I grasp the concept that Revelation is an autonomous and independent unit, but I see no reason to accept it.
As far as I am concerned, it would be more true to say that the Bible as a whole is a complete unit.
There are two logical possibilities; Revelation either does, or does not, come from that God who is the ultimate source of the rest of the Bible.
If it does come from that God, that it makes sense to interpret it in conjunction with the rest of the Bible.
If it does not come from that God, then it has no value as prophecy and there is no point in taking it as prophecy.
There is no logical place for the eclectic attitude of "Oh, look, I've found a book of prophecy, I think I'll start believing it".
The meaning of any book is what the author thinks it means.

My other reason for understanding Revelation through the Old Testament allusions is that I'm convinced that this is precisely how the Christians of John's time would have gained their understanding of it. And, furthermore, that the allusions were deliberately made for that purpose, setting up the Old Testament as the codebook which would enable Revelation to be understood. Once someone grasps that point, the whole thing becomes much less mysterious.

A modern analogy. If you want to understand old political cartoons, you will find yourself completely at sea unless you know something about the politics of the time, and the way it was presented in the cartoons of the time. For example, you may see a cartoon about a pipe-smoking bulldog having a fight with a long-nosed poodle. Anyone of my generation can unpack the meaning of that picture by remembering the significance of the various "props"; Bulldog- British. Poodle-French. Pipe- Harold Wilson. Long nose- General de Gaulle. This is easy enough. A big argument between the British and French heads of government. But you would presumably make things difficult for yourself by treating the cartoon as a "complete unit" and ignoring what anyone tried to tell you about the political context. You would be telling everybody in sight that the pipe was obviously a volcano in South America, and the poodle was the Archangel Gabriel.

It wold be very perverse to try to understand the code of Revelation without making use of the code-book which has been supplied to us.

Originally posted by nlouise
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

I don't recall reading anything that contradicted what I believe now as a Christian.

This, for me, is a major problem.

Any Revelation of Truth at all specifically contradicts, root and branch, every single doctrine of the Pharisaical, idolatrous, metaphysical philosophers who refer to themselves as Christian theologians.

You might want to read some of my writings on the "Conspiracies in Religions" forum--especially with regards to the Nag Hammadi Conspiracy.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
The Revelation of the "resurrection" is very cryptically referred to in Revelations 20:12 "...while the Book of Life was opened, and other books were opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives..." (not life, singular)

This is a cryptic reference to the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

Nonsense. "Many people", one life each, adds up to "many lives".

(sigh)

The Book of Life refers, specifically, to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation.

(Have you ever even so much as read Genesis 2:7?)

"other books" refers to the revelation of the memories of previous lives, as figuratively described in the Gospel of Luke 20:34-36.

So, the Torah is the Book of the Law; the Book of Life is the Revelation of the Memory of Creation (this is the Revelation which is "written in the heart"--see the Book of Jeremiah) and the Book of Truth (see the Book of Daniel Chapter 10: vs. 20b) refers to the Vision of the "Son of man".

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Gaussq
The seventh church is the church that will take over the world, maybe we can agree on that?
Anyone thinks "Christian church" will take over the world today?

Revelation does not say that the "seventh church" will take over the world.
What Revelation says, in ch13, is that the worship of the Beast will take over the world.
"All who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not beeen written in the Book of Life"
Meanwhile the followers of Christ will be persecuted and put to death. "The Beast will be allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them"

If you insist that your religion will take over the world, you are, in effect, claiming that your religion is the worship of the Beast, the religion of the Antichrist. I'm willing to believe you on that point.

. And Jesus has nothing to do with it.

That comment is sufficient reason for anyone who believes in Jesus to ignore what you are\saying.

Everyone who wants to become a God must do it this way,

The Biblical faith is not about people wanting to become Gods in their own right. That ambition is left to the Antichrist. The leading figure mentioned in the rest of your post fits the given description fairly accurately.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Revelation does not say that the "seventh church" will take over the world.

What Revelation says, in ch13, is that the worship of the Beast will take over the world.

"All who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not beeen written in the Book of Life"

Well, inasmuch as the Book of Life refers to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation, you are in quite serious difficulties here.

Because, clearly, you have not received that Revelation.

The "beast" is, of course, the same as the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", or the dualistic consciousness of the "self"...

Wheras the "Tree of Life" of Genesis 3:24 refers to the Vision of the "Son of man", a Revelation which you have also not received.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
(sigh)
The Book of Life refers, specifically, to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation.
(Have you ever even so much as read Genesis 2:7?)
"other books" refers to the revelation of the memories of previous lives, as figuratively described in the Gospel of Luke 20:34-36.

I am familiar with that verse in Genesis. Nothing in that verse or in the Revelation ch20 verse tells me or anybody else that there is a memory of Creation or that the Book of Life refers to it. These are imaginary teachings which you are putting into the Bible, rather than taking them out of it.
The Luke passage does not help you either. The Luke passage specifies that there will be a resurrection. A SINGLE resurrection. Nothing there about multiple lives.
You conveniently ignore the statement of Revalation ch 21 that there will be no more death. You are just picking and choosing verses and distorting them for your own purpose.

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Well, inasmuch as the Book of Life refers to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation, you are in quite serious difficulties here.

Because, clearly, you have not received that Revelation.

I have not set myself to do any more than understand a Revelation which somebody else received.
I make no claim to have received a Revelation of any kind.
I do not claim to be "the only individual in human history" to have Knowledge.

You make such a claim, but the Bible instructs me to ignore false prophets and those who come in their own name setting themslves up as gods.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Strange.

When I read your replies, the words of Revelations 9:1-11 come to 'mind'.

The "angel of the Abyss" is the 'motivation' of Greek metaphysical philosophy.

"Body armor like iron breastplates" is, esoterically, a reference to those who have hardened their hearts against the Truth about the Revelation and Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

Your arguments against the Truth, originating with the "angel of the Abyss", are literally endless.

As Jesus stated: "Their name is legion."

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
When I read your replies, the words of Revelations 9:1-11 come to 'mind'.

That is interesting. When I read your comments, the words of Revelation ch15 v13 come to mind.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Well, inasmuch as the Book of Life refers to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation, you are in quite serious difficulties here.

Because, clearly, you have not received that Revelation.

I have not set myself to do any more than understand a Revelation which somebody else received.
I make no claim to have received a Revelation of any kind.
I do not claim to be "the only individual in human history" to have Knowledge.

You make such a claim, but the Bible instructs me to ignore false prophets and those who come in their own name setting themslves up as gods.


Michael Cecil

DON'T put MY name on YOUR nonsense.

Attention moderators: Is this not some kind of violation of the rules around here?

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
DON'T put MY name on YOUR nonsense.

Michael Cecil

Sorry- i was quoting your post, edited out most of it, obviously, and failed to notice the bit at the bottom.
There is still time to correct.