Is physics rapidly leaving the realm of SCIENCE and RE-ENTERING the realm of MAGIC ?

Let me immediately clarify the title of this thread.
By using the term magic, I'm in no way implying a mystical or supernatural explanation behind the observed behaviour of the universe and its constituent parts. Rather I'm using the term in a manner consistent to that expressed many years ago by Arthur C. Clark when he made the (now famous) comment:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

For the purpose of this thread, the entire set of rules governing the creation and workings of the universe are to be considered analogous to Clark's use of the term "advanced technology".


Many years ago, as a youngster, I developed a strong interest in science with physics being one branch of interest to me and of particular interest, sub-atomic physics. At that young age, I was quite surprised to learn that all matter in the universe apparently could be explained as being composed of extremely small and apparently indivisible particles named electrons, protons and neutrons; and that in various combinations, these 3 particles were basically all that was needed to create the entire matter universe surrounding us. Consequently, to my young mind, that was all that there was to the universe ... and that the apparent complexities reduced down to very basic laws governing the interactions of these 3 basic particles by way of 4 simple forces namely, weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces.
The universe and physics, in my then limited understanding, appeared to be a reasonably simple and straightforward one to understand and come to grips with. However with the years and ongoing scientific research by the scientific community, I eventually lost this simplistic attitude as the deeper physics examined the sub-atomic realm, the more numerous the particles being discovered, the more numerous the forces involved and the more complex the universe began to appear to me. So much so, that in recent years, I've essentially come to the conclusion that there seems to be no ready end in sight to how deep we can "drill" down into the sub-atomic realm because no matter how deeper we look, no matter how much energy is expended by instruments such as the Large Hadron Collider in their quest to find the 'ultimate' particle, there always appear to be more and more of these strange particles looking back at us.

However, having written the above, don't misunderstand it as being indicative of me trying to say that ongoing research and experimentation is a waste of time and money ... far from it as each new discovery broadens our horizons on the nature of the universe and should be continued to the greatest extent possible. What I am saying instead is that where we once may have believed that we would quite quickly achieve a full understanding and grasp of the rules and structure of the sub-atomic realm, this understanding and grasp appears to be receding away from us with every new discovery in particle physics that is made. And as our understanding begins to fall behind and lag our discoveries, we may eventually find ourselves in the unique situation that we have to finally admit that we may never truly understand the inherent nature governing the rules of particle creation and simply state that "particles exist and are created" through what may as well be a set of "magical rules" that we will never be able to comprehend. What makes this current situation in particle physics research of an apparently "never ending" stream of particles being discovered is that if we accept the Big Bang Theory as factual, then the "rules of particle" creation (if there is such a concept), came into existence "automatically" at the very instance of the Big Bang taking place. These rules came from nowhere and came into existence fully formed, extremely complex in nature and substance, and apparently ready to enable particle and force creation from the word go.
Nature is not a scientist neither does it conducts scientific research ... it's many rules simply popped into existence from seemingly nowhere, ready formed and working perfectly with no guiding or supervising intelligence whatsoever. To me, I can't use the term "science" to describe such a state of affairs ... instead, the term "magic" appears to be much more appropriate.


Even though the above primarily centers around the plethora or "zoo" of particles being discovered and the increasing difficulties in arriving at or deducing some kind of overall simple "rule" to explain their existence, other branches of physics are now finding themselves in a similar situation whereby their earlier beliefs that the ultimate laws of physics will be completely deducible in the near future and found to be explainable with "simple" theories have proven to be completely misguided. Examples of the ever increasing complexity of the underlying substrate governing the workings of the universe are to be readily found in Quantum Theory where even the basic principles such as super-position and action-at-a-distance are proving to be incredibly counter-intuitive and difficult to come to grips with; also the attempt to come up with a Grand Unified Theory (GUT) and Theory of Everything (ToE) are struggling with the many models being proposed - with some models needing to postulate a universe with 10 or more dimensions.
Then we have additional recent concepts such as Multi-Verses and parallel dimensions to complicate matters even further and doing their part to make this universe of ours and its associated "laws" ever more complex and difficult to comprehend.

So, after just a few hundred years of scientific research into the laws that govern the existence of our universe, we find that the deeper and deeper that we probe, that far more questions than answers are being generated and that the stranger and weirder these "laws" and the underlying mechanism of the universe apparently is becoming.
In fact, our entire technological society is based on the application of some of the "ways of the universe" without even coming close to a complete understanding of why and how these technologies work. We employ magnetism in almost every facet of our day to day lives ... we may employ its effects but are hard pressed to explain it in detail. We use lasers everywhere these days, but I don't believe there's a single person able to completely and precisely explain every detail of what happens to an electron when it jumps from one energy level to another. In fact, is there even a complete understanding of what an electron is ? We can control its properties and create the wonders of tv, computers and radio ... but exactly what is a complete description and understanding of an electron ?
And as for gravity ....

So, we employ the results of the universe without truly understanding the how ...

Which brings me to ask the question once again ...
Is physics rapidly leaving the realm of SCIENCE and RE-ENTERING the realm of MAGIC ?
to which I personally have to answer YES.

I agree with you.

Science is only the system for catologueing and explaining the mystery's of our world.

Where science ends, magic begins. Simply because science hasn't explained something, people are so quick to dismiss it.

These laws of physics arent just some equations on a chalkboard, they are being used and explored by even the less technological of us, ..... by exploring the depths of human conscousness.

I think science can learn a great deal from spiritual pioneers as well as OBE'ers like myself.

reply to post by tauristercus


I have to agree the universe is turning out to be magic. Great example is virtual particles they pop in and out of existence. Empty space turns out to have more energy then the observable universe by a magnitude of about 120. And this isnt a theory we have virtual particles that can pop in and out of existence, and they change the nature of a hydrogen atom, because a hydrogen atom isn't just a proton and electron.

And how much longer can it be before we learn to manipulate constants and imagine the results. Einstein said, while referring to God but not really meaning God, that the question that really interested him is did God have any choice in the creation of the universe. What he really meant by that was, is there only one consistent set of laws that works. If you changed one — if you twiddled one aspect of physical reality — would it all fall apart? Or are there lots of possible viable physical realities? Something to think about changing the rules means nothings off the table including traveling to the other side of the universe.

reply to post by tauristercus


Great thread and I feel the same, though not a physicist...

Someone smart said.. "The more we learn, the less we know" very fitting..

s&f

reply to post by tauristercus


S&F dude!
I agree, my research along these lines leads me to the same conclusion. Take electricity, something we take for granted, we think we know how it works. Nothing could be further from the truth, we are just scratching the surface
I've posted many timess my views on magnetism.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by tauristercus

 

And how much longer can it be before we learn to manipulate constants ...

Hopefully the capability to manipulate the physical constants will forever elude us ... being able to do that would essentially turn us into "gods". Not to mention give us the potential to do indescribable damage to the universe all because someone decided to do a "what if ..." experiment by altering something as essential as the value of pi. I'm making the assumption here that altering the value of a fundamental constant here on Earth would instantly result in that new value appearing throughout the entire universe ... just imagine if the ratio of the circumference of a circle to that of its diameter was no longer EXACTLY equal to pi ! What would the repercussions be ? One that immediate comes to mind is the possibility that stars could no longer form or exist as their very shape depends on the current version of pi remaining as it is.


With respect to my OP, the subject of constants also shows that we essentially know less than nothing about how the universe created and continues to maintain them. To me, constants are indistinguishable from "magic" in the context of our current understanding of physical processes.

reply to post by tauristercus

because someone decided to do a "what if ..." experiment by altering something as essential as the value of pi.

Now when has the little problem of not knowing what may happen EVER stopped man from trying?

If Earth is ever destroyed by MAN, it will be because of science...

Originally posted by CynicalM
reply to post by tauristercus

 

because someone decided to do a "what if ..." experiment by altering something as essential as the value of pi.

Now when has the little problem of not knowing what may happen EVER stopped man from trying?

If Earth is ever destroyed by MAN, it will be because of science...

No argument from me !

But with the capability to alter a fundamental universal constant e.g. pi, we potentially would be extending our destructive potential to take out the entire universe with just the flick of a switch ... "OOPS - my bad !"

reply to post by tauristercus


Well, I don't see how anyone can change pi, but I get your point

yes indeed,,,, Alchemy needs to be looked at through our collective 'new eyes'

perhaps its not such a mystical, spiritual, poetic thing as many have deemed it.

Originally posted by CynicalM
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Well, I don't see how anyone can change pi, but I get your point

I don't see how either but your very statement raises 2 very interesting points.

1. Did pi (and all the other universal fundamental constants) exist before the Big Bang ?
If so, what possible "mechanism" could have been responsible and what brought this "mechanism" into existence ?

2. If pi (and the other universal fundamental constants) was created at the very moment of (or immediately following) the Big Bang, was the value of pi selected immediately the correct one or was there a brief time in which many potential values of pi were tried and discarded ? A process of trial and error ?
Again, what would have been the possible mechanism behind either possibility ?

Magic ... magic ... magic ...

An excellent thread topic and very thought provoking.

I've wondered myself that if our "universe" only came into existence as a result of the big bang and all the "instructions" for the particles, forces, etc were created from scratch in that initial infinitesimal moment of time without any obvious previous trial and error process by nature and worked perfectly, then surely those physics rules/laws shouldn't be unnecessarily complex ?
And yet the deeper we investigate and the more experiments we conduct, the more and more and more complex that the underlying physical rules appear to becoming. Surely the deeper we probe the simpler the rules should be ?
So what's really happening here ?

Interesting ideas, and I would have to agree for the most part - however I do think we are entirely capable of understanding the universe and its laws for the most part.

I guess that comes as a form of faith, but I would rather be optimistic about our situation than pessimistic.

If the fundamental ratios of nature did change, would it really have any effect upon us? Would stars really not be able to form if pi had a final digit?

They are interesting questions... I don't think we would be able to distinguish if ever they did change.

I think it would be a seamless transition, perhaps like a dream. All of a sudden we would just have a vague memory of a 'time before'... like when the earth was still 'flat'.

Everything depends on our own perception of what is real, so in a way it would only be our perception that changes to explain and elaborate on nature - while nature itself remains in a sort of Platonic ideal form.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
-Max Planck

another quote:

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.
-Max Planck

wikiquote: Max Planck

The more we learn the less we know, just keeps proving itself over and over. Now they say the constants are not constant throughout the universe. Mankind being able to change constants, it's to late, it's already been done.

Source: www.sciencedaily.com...

Magic is little more than the unknown. In a sense, it is all magic to those who don't have some understanding of how science works. On the other hand, quantum "mechanics" is a contradiction of terms really, isn't it? What's mechanical about quantum mechanics? Some super intelligent people are working overtime figuring this stuff out.

Physics is wordplay for magic.

Language is our biggest barrier to the truth.

Reply to post by tauristercus

I am in the middle of 'free energy-secrets of the cold war' in which the author postulates that Tesla gave up his work on AC to experiment with what is called the aether. Fascinating read but to boil it down the thought is that our laws of thermodynamics are obsolete due to the nature of the aether. I will agree with the post- magic would be an accurate description relating to advanced technologies we simply don't grasp. Sometimes I wonder if 'the laws' are part of what hold science back. Almost in a skinner/hegalian aspect. Program the people to think in a certain vien and they can no longer use their own creativity to answer the most perplexing questions of life. Because certain hypothesis "couldn't possibly be right" they are thrown out never explored.



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reply to post by tauristercus


Right, and that leads us to another interesting question, are the constants actually constant?
If C can vary, why not G and Q as well? I don't know about G, but the fundamental value of charge, Q (coulomb) is related to the surface area of an electron. There are 2 problems with this. 1 the electron appears to have more energy than it should, you can't stop them moving, even if you freeze them to absolute zero. 2 the electron is actually more like a cloud than a 'solid particle'-it therefore has a surface area 1000's of times greater than it's 'solid' counterpart. Food for thought.....
I think i'll start a new thread called 'embarrassing questions to ask your physics teacher'

I LOVE the title of this thread.

Well done.

I'll have a read of it now - just gave you a star for the title alone!

reply to post by beebs


Highly interesting and thought provoking comments... Max Planck was on to something, of that I'm certain!

OP was well written and irrefutable, as it's an honest assessment of where science is at.

I wonder whether the apocalypse is an inevitable intervention of the Primal Consciousness' avatars, simply to prevent humans from opening doors that shouldn't be opened...

Anyone remember the film Event Horizon? Chilling.