Feminism: Destroying the Male and Female Relationship

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rusethorcain

 

Why do you keep grouping Women with Children?

Children are Minors, Women are grown Adults.

Children should be treated like Children and Women should be treated like Adults.

If Adults cannot function in an environment without feeling inadequate and frightened then they should try functioning in a different environment where they are at ease.

Because children are an important part of any male female relationship and the domestic violence equation.
Among the men that distrust and dislike women alone and on principal, (your true misogynists)....scattered among them are the seriously sadistic, evil and the murderers of women and children.
You imagine you are standing tall and protecting the good men, the true victims, the pitifully abused...
and meanwhile among them, the worst fiends hiding from the rest of us....behind your skirt.
Hey good job. Keep it up...as they say.
Here is a link for you. Saints be praised...I found an honest man....Confessions of a Misogynist
jan.ucc.nau.edu...

I am a sexist male. I take no great pride in saying this. I am merely stating a fact. It is not that I was born this way; rather, I was born into this male-dominated society, and, consequently, from the very moment I began forming thoughts, they formed in a decidedly male-centered way. My "education" at home with my mother, at school, on my neighborhood playgrounds, and at church all placed males at the center of the universe. My digestion of 1970s American popular culture in the form of television, film, ads, and music only added to my training, so that by as early as age nine or ten I saw females, including my mother, as nothing more than the servants of males.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


You asked if men would be forced to pay for a child they don't want and if women would be forced to carry a child that they don't want, followed by asking if having an abortion was a woman owning up to her responsibilities. Thus my response.

I simply want society as a whole to acknowledge that women ALSO have a responsibility when it comes to preventing pregnancy.

When a woman gets pregnant and didn't want to be, society already views it as her fault because she 'should have been on the pill' or 'shouldn't have spread her legs if she didn't want a baby'. If a woman gets pregnant and isn't married she's called all manner of names and society declares it's all her fault. Women are the only ones seen as having any responsibility when it comes to preventing pregnancy while men aren't expected to do anything more than send money every month if he's not married to the mother of his child. Even in threads like this one you'll find many a poster who sincerely believes that preventing pregnancy is solely the woman's responsibility and that he can be 'trapped' by a woman who lies about being on the pill ignoring the fact that he has options to prevent unwanted pregnancy as well.

Originally posted by Jenna
When a woman gets pregnant and didn't want to be, society already views it as her fault because she 'should have been on the pill' or 'shouldn't have spread her legs if she didn't want a baby'. If a woman gets pregnant and isn't married she's called all manner of names and society declares it's all her fault. Women are the only ones seen as having any responsibility when it comes to preventing pregnancy while men aren't expected to do anything more than send money every month if he's not married to the mother of his child. Even in threads like this one you'll find many a poster who sincerely believes that preventing pregnancy is solely the woman's responsibility and that he can be 'trapped' by a woman who lies about being on the pill ignoring the fact that he has options to prevent unwanted pregnancy as well.

Yeah only those women who lie about the pill are often in long term relationships with said man and therefore he trusts her not to lie. I would argue that's a legal deception for financial profit and therefore he shouldn't be required to pay anything. But hey what about when men do take precautions, things go wrong (rare but it happens) and then the woman keeps the child without any choice being given to the man. Should he not have the right to forfeit any parental rights and be financially released from his servitude?

You think it's a minor think a man has to have a good chunk of his income taken to pay for a child he never wanted? Sorry but if the woman doesn't want to pay for the child she shouldn't be keeping it. It is her decision alone to keep it and therefore the burden should be on her alone. If i rob a bank and get caught i don't split the sentence with the clerk who handed over the money

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I don't know which country you are in but here in the UK you can't simply sign away your parental rights and walk away. I think you'll find women can pretty much cut the father out of the childs life and then demand money and the government will make sure he pays. Worst of all if the father doesn't think he is indeed the father he needs the permission of the mother to get a genetic test. If she doesn't give it he has to go to court and very often they won't grant the test.

I'm in the US and I see parents (both mothers and fathers) willingly sign away their parental rights on a weekly basis. The laws on it vary by state though:

Texas
(a) An affidavit for voluntary relinquishment of parental rights must be:
(1) signed after the birth of the child, but not before 48 hours after the birth of the child, by the parent, whether or not a minor, whose parental rights are to be relinquished;
(2) witnessed by two credible persons; and
(3) verified before a person authorized to take oaths.

Indiana
IC 31-35-1-4
Petition; verification and contents
Sec. 4. (a) If requested by the parents:
(1) the county office of family and children; or
(2) a licensed child placing agency;
may sign and file a verified petition with the juvenile or probate court for the voluntary termination of the parent-child relationship.
(b) The petition must:
(1) be entitled "In the Matter of the Termination of the Parent-Child Relationship of ______________, a child, and _____________, the child's parent (or parents)"; and
(2) allege that:
(A) the parents are the child's natural or adoptive parents;
(B) the parents, including the alleged or adjudicated father if the child was born out of wedlock:
(i) knowingly and voluntarily consent to the termination of the parent-child relationship; or
(ii) are not required to consent to the termination of the parent-child relationship under section 6(c) of this chapter;
(C) termination is in the child's best interest; and
(D) the petitioner has developed a satisfactory plan of care and treatment for the child.

Texas requires the parent to wait 48 hours, Indiana doesn't, but both permit parents to voluntarily terminate their parental rights. There are also safe haven laws in some areas that permit people to drop off their unharmed infants in designated areas with no questions asked.

As far as paternity tests go, people can order one online and do it without telling anyone else about it until they get the results back if they so choose. If there is question about the paternity of a child then the alleged father has every right to know if he really is the dad, he shouldn't have to ask the mom's permission. That's one heck of a crappy law you all have across the pond.

If they are not a part of the decision then what exactly would be the point of hearing the mans opinion? What is there to consider if he can't change the decision?

He might be able to, that's why I said he should at least get to voice his opinion on it and she should listen to him and consider his side. Abortion is a permanent solution that shouldn't be rushed into or entered lightly, and if you're in a relationship with someone you should want their input when it comes to such a big decision. I just don't believe he should have veto power over the woman's decision.

If the guy doesn't want it he should have the right to sign a piece of paper stating he has no intention of being a part of the childs life. He then gets to walk away. This would be a far more equal system.

They can here, which is part of the reasoning behind my thoughts on the whole thing.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Men already know that sperm have a will of their own. Their sperm choose to fertilize an egg, the men know the act of ejeculation will release their sperm in said eggs direction yet they still make that choice to risk unwanted conception and make the choice to not take precautions for themselves. If they do not want to cause a pregnancy then they need to go read "where did I come from" or go sit in on a sex-ed class. It's not like women are all evil succubuses stealing men's sperm in their sleep or something.

Edit. male or female it's also a good idea to actually DISCUSS contraception options BEFORE having sex with someone you may not want to create a child with.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
More double speak from Feminism. "Yes, fathers are important. But the decision is with the woman. The man can comment but it is her choice that counts. What she chooses is all that matters because it is her body. When men can go through 9-months of labour then they can comment. Up until then, they are sperm banks that need to keep their snakes in their cages." (and so on continues the same old recycled garbage).

And what about the sperm? Well, it's only good for establishing when Child Support payments should be made. Otherwise, the man has lost control of his seed and apparently all the rights that come with that seed. Is it really any wonder why less and less men are eager to marry and have kids? The system is set up to screw them either way.

That wasn't what I said nor what I meant, and frankly I expected better than that from you.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Yeah only those women who lie about the pill are often in long term relationships with said man and therefore he trusts her not to lie.

And he should be able to trust her not to lie. There are some really awful women out there who'll lie about being on the pill just as there are some really awful men who'll lie and say they've had a vasectomy because they don't want to wear a condom. Liars exist and both men and women should take responsibility for preventing unwanted pregnancy even if their partner is too. No method is 100% foolproof except abstinence and it doesn't hurt to take extra precautions if you don't want children.

Should he not have the right to forfeit any parental rights and be financially released from his servitude?

I covered this in another post directed at you, but I'm pretty sure it hadn't been posted yet when you typed this so I'll leave this alone for now. No sense creating duplicate posts on the same page.

You think it's a minor think a man has to have a good chunk of his income taken to pay for a child he never wanted?

No I don't. I've seen some men go broke because of child support and I've seen others lie about their income so they have extra cash for their toys while their kids have to make do on very little. It's wrong either way.

reply to post by riley


My point was that if a man takes precautions and they dont work and the woman chooses to keep the child then the man is treated unfairly. The man can be responsible 50/50 for conception but the woman chooses to keep the child and therefore takes the burden of responsibility. I'm not excusing men who sleep with some random woman and don't use protection, they're morons but even so their choices are only 50/50 at the start, when the woman discovers the pregnancy the responsibility changes.

reply to post by Jenna


You're quite correct i was typing my reply while you were doing yours so i'll try and squash this into one post

Ok so i understand now about your laws in the USa to do with relinquishing rights, does that mean the father would not have to pay for the child? Or can the mother still chase him down and force payments? If the man doesn't have to pay then quite simply i think that's a very good law as it enables men to have more equal rights in the entire situation. Your laws on paternity tests i did know about and are truly more fair. The laws in the UK are disgusting when it comes to paternity.

I agree absolutely a man shouldn't have veto power over a woman and force her into an abortion, that would be utterly disgusting, but tbh a man shouldn't have any say at all in whether a woman has an abortion, none at all. The only way the law should change is to allow men to opt out of being financially tied to the child and if they so choose that they should utterly forfeit any and all rights of visitation. This would need to be a cast iron agreement.

Originally posted by Jenna
[And he should be able to trust her not to lie. There are some really awful women out there who'll lie about being on the pill just as there are some really awful men who'll lie and say they've had a vasectomy because they don't want to wear a condom. Liars exist and both men and women should take responsibility for preventing unwanted pregnancy even if their partner is too. No method is 100% foolproof except abstinence and it doesn't hurt to take extra precautions if you don't want children.

Thing is that under the law obtaining goods or money by deception is an actual crime, we don't tell the victims of con men/women that it is their fault and they should be responsible for it. A woman lying about being on the pill is intending on getting a child and knows the financial ties that come with it. Of course proving any of this would be impossible.

I agree with extra precautions, i intended to get a vasectomy however after discussing it with a doctor there are some rather unpleasant side effects in 70% of cases. Apart from pain lasting past 6 months the sperm can leak, causing an immune response which results in small, marble sized lumps under the skin. I think i'll just stick to the extra thick condoms for now, but you see my point here.

Originally posted by Jenna
I covered this in another post directed at you, but I'm pretty sure it hadn't been posted yet when you typed this so I'll leave this alone for now. No sense creating duplicate posts on the same page.

Yeah sorry about that.

Originally posted by Jenna
No I don't. I've seen some men go broke because of child support and I've seen others lie about their income so they have extra cash for their toys while their kids have to make do on very little. It's wrong either way.

Is it? Sorry but if a guy doesn't want the kids and wants absolutely no part of their lives then why would it be wrong for him to lie about his income? The woman chose to have the kids without the man being able to have any say and she knew he would probably try and get out of paying so in the end it's up to the woman.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Ok so i understand now about your laws in the USa to do with relinquishing rights, does that mean the father would not have to pay for the child? Or can the mother still chase him down and force payments? If the man doesn't have to pay then quite simply i think that's a very good law as it enables men to have more equal rights in the entire situation. Your laws on paternity tests i did know about and are truly more fair. The laws in the UK are disgusting when it comes to paternity.

When a parent terminates their parental rights they are relieved of all rights, responsibilities, and obligations as to the child. So the father no longer pays child support and the mother can't legally demand anything of them, but they also no longer have any say in the child's medical care, education, etc., and have no legal right to see the child. It's a trade off really but it's an option for those who don't want to pay child support or be responsible for a child.

I agree absolutely a man shouldn't have veto power over a woman and force her into an abortion, that would be utterly disgusting, but tbh a man shouldn't have any say at all in whether a woman has an abortion, none at all.

I think they should at least be able to give their input on it simply because they did help create the fetus in question and it is a huge decision. The only exception I place on that is rape simply because it's none of his business what she chooses to do.

Thing is that under the law obtaining goods or money by deception is an actual crime, we don't tell the victims of con men/women that it is their fault and they should be responsible for it.

But this is a child, not goods or money. The child shouldn't be punished because of the actions of the parents, they're innocent of any wrongdoing. Money from child support isn't supposed to go to the custodial parent, it's for the care of the child. Granted it doesn't always get used that way, but it's supposed to be. If the noncustodial parent, whether it's mom or dad, doesn't want to pay support then they should either seek custody of the child or sign away their rights. Doesn't help in the UK or other countries where they won't let you sign away your rights, I know, but I'm of a mind that maybe those countries should be reconsidering their laws.

I agree with extra precautions, i intended to get a vasectomy however after discussing it with a doctor there are some rather unpleasant side effects in 70% of cases.

It can also reverse itself on occasion and some men don't go in for their followups to make sure they're not still capable of impregnating someone. Doctors have also been working on birth control for men, but it's been awhile since I've heard anything about it so I don't think they ever got it working right.

Yeah sorry about that.

No worries, it happens on occasion.

Is it? Sorry but if a guy doesn't want the kids and wants absolutely no part of their lives then why would it be wrong for him to lie about his income? The woman chose to have the kids without the man being able to have any say and she knew he would probably try and get out of paying so in the end it's up to the woman.

Yes it is. In the case of a man going broke over it, it's wrong because he shouldn't be forced into poverty over it. In the case of a man lying about his income so he has extra money for toys, it's wrong because the kids are the ones who suffer for it. If he wants nothing to do with them, then he should sign away his rights if he lives here or come to whatever arrangement the law will allow if he lives elsewhere.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by riley

 

My point was that if a man takes precautions and they dont work and the woman chooses to keep the child then the man is treated unfairly. The man can be responsible 50/50 for conception but the woman chooses to keep the child and therefore takes the burden of responsibility.

What.. so you would expect a woman to either go through the trauma of choosing abortion so you can have the choice to walk away.. or take the risk of having the baby where you still might walk away at any time cuz being a daddy is too difficult? Do you really think thats fair? :shk:

I'm not excusing men who sleep with some random woman and don't use protection, they're morons but even so their choices are only 50/50 at the start, when the woman discovers the pregnancy the responsibility changes.

Manning up and taking responsibilty for your own offspring is not an unfair obligation.

Originally posted by riley
What.. so you would expect a woman to either go through the trauma of choosing abortion so you can have the choice to walk away.. or take the risk of having the baby where you still might walk away at any time cuz being a daddy is too difficult? Do you really think thats fair? :shk:

It's a decision the woman has to undertake, she doesn't have to abort she can keep it and work to support it, just like many single mothers do. Conception is 50/50, keeping it is a 100% decision of the woman and therefore it is her responsibility, why are you so utterly against women taking responsibility for their actions?

Originally posted by riley
Manning up and taking responsibilty for your own offspring is not an unfair obligation.

Being forced to have a child you don't want isn't about manning up and btw manning up is a deeply sexist statement. Next time i have a friend who needs help i'll tell her to woman up shall i? Why is it only men have to man up and be strong, to take responsibility? Why no womanning up? You want to be equal right? Then don't use such phrases.

Originally posted by Jenna
When a parent terminates their parental rights they are relieved of all rights, responsibilities, and obligations as to the child. So the father no longer pays child support and the mother can't legally demand anything of them, but they also no longer have any say in the child's medical care, education, etc., and have no legal right to see the child. It's a trade off really but it's an option for those who don't want to pay child support or be responsible for a child.

Now that right there is a fair and equal law.........................how the hell is that going on in america and not the UK? Men are given more options it seems in various states in the USA.

Originally posted by Jenna
I think they should at least be able to give their input on it simply because they did help create the fetus in question and it is a huge decision. The only exception I place on that is rape simply because it's none of his business what she chooses to do.

A man can air his views sure but there should never be any legal ability for a man to influence what a woman does or does not do with her body, the reverse of course should be the same.

Originally posted by Jenna
But this is a child, not goods or money. The child shouldn't be punished because of the actions of the parents, they're innocent of any wrongdoing. Money from child support isn't supposed to go to the custodial parent, it's for the care of the child. Granted it doesn't always get used that way, but it's supposed to be. If the noncustodial parent, whether it's mom or dad, doesn't want to pay support then they should either seek custody of the child or sign away their rights. Doesn't help in the UK or other countries where they won't let you sign away your rights, I know, but I'm of a mind that maybe those countries should be reconsidering their laws.

Some (note i said some!) women get the child so they can be financially tied to the man, therefore if they lie about the pill to get the child they are undertaking a crime as they are gaining financial rewards by deceit. Their lives will be improved by the financial support, sorry but that's a crime, of course our court systems in the UK won't even dare to say such a thing.

I've never faced this situation, and i hope i never do.

Originally posted by Jenna
It can also reverse itself on occasion and some men don't go in for their followups to make sure they're not still capable of impregnating someone. Doctors have also been working on birth control for men, but it's been awhile since I've heard anything about it so I don't think they ever got it working right.

The birth control for men thing is coming along however i utterly dislike the pill for women due to the rather negative effects it can have so i am dubious about a pill for men. An ex of mine took the pill for about 3 months and had to come off it because she suffered terrible depression, to the point of near suicide, soon as she quit she was back to normal, it was pretty scary.

It can also make some women aggressive, now imagine what a male pill might do! Hormones just aren't something that should be messed with. I'm kind of hoping for a better form of vasectomy.

Originally posted by Jenna
Yes it is. In the case of a man going broke over it, it's wrong because he shouldn't be forced into poverty over it. In the case of a man lying about his income so he has extra money for toys, it's wrong because the kids are the ones who suffer for it. If he wants nothing to do with them, then he should sign away his rights if he lives here or come to whatever arrangement the law will allow if he lives elsewhere.

See this is my issue, someone like yourself is offerring a good and sensible option and yet others would think your opinion here is deeply unfair, anti-feminist and a number of other labels i could throw at you.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Now that right there is a fair and equal law.........................how the hell is that going on in america and not the UK? Men are given more options it seems in various states in the USA.

Because we're just full of awesome over here. Seriously though, I'm not entirely sure and I can't come up with an explanation for it that even makes sense to me.

A man can air his views sure but there should never be any legal ability for a man to influence what a woman does or does not do with her body, the reverse of course should be the same.

Agreed.

Some (note i said some!) women get the child so they can be financially tied to the man, therefore if they lie about the pill to get the child they are undertaking a crime as they are gaining financial rewards by deceit. Their lives will be improved by the financial support, sorry but that's a crime, of course our court systems in the UK won't even dare to say such a thing.

Yes some do lie, just as some men lie about their ability to impregnate. The problem is that it's a he said/she said thing. He says she lied about being on the pill, she says he never asked. Or he says she lied, and in reality she was taking it but it didn't work due to antibiotics or the pregnancy is that .1% that happens even when taking the pill. The law doesn't take he said/she said nonsense into account because either side could be lying and there's really not any way to prove it one way or the other. The child shouldn't pay the consequences of parents who can't get along long enough to come to an agreement on child support.

The birth control for men thing is coming along however i utterly dislike the pill for women due to the rather negative effects it can have so i am dubious about a pill for men. An ex of mine took the pill for about 3 months and had to come off it because she suffered terrible depression, to the point of near suicide, soon as she quit she was back to normal, it was pretty scary.

I'm wary of anything new that comes out medication-wise, so I can't blame anyone else for being wary as well. The list of possible side effects for the women's version is a mile long so I'd imagine the men's version will have a comparable list.

It can also make some women aggressive, now imagine what a male pill might do! Hormones just aren't something that should be messed with. I'm kind of hoping for a better form of vasectomy.

Is it bad that the Incredible Hulk saying "You won't like me when I'm angry!" flashed through my mind?

See this is my issue, someone like yourself is offerring a good and sensible option and yet others would think your opinion here is deeply unfair, anti-feminist and a number of other labels i could throw at you.

Eh, I'm used to it. I can see the issue from both sides since I deal with it daily, and there are options that would give each side a little of what they want if they'd just compromise. The problem is no one wants to compromise, they want what they want and to heck with everyone else.

I work at a University and if you ask an undergrad what they're planning on doing as a career, many will give you very complete plans for obtaining their career objectives. They will tell you how much and what kind of degree(s) they want to get and where and what type of work experience they want to give them the best shot at their career.

If you ask what they are doing to prepare for their future most desired relationship, you'd get a blank look.
No one is talking about what it takes to be in a committed relationship any more.

How and what do you do or not do to give yourself the best shot at a happy and fulfilling relationship? That is the question that no one wants to address.

reply to post by Wildbob77


No one wants to address it because there isn't really a good answer for it. What works for me might not work for you when it comes to finding a happy, long-lasting relationship, and vice versa. For example, my hubby and I like to pick on each other and when one of us gets too serious the other pokes fun at them until we're both laughing. My mom, upon first witnessing it, thought we were fighting and being mean to each other. It works for us, but wouldn't work for her because she doesn't understand it. The same applies to any advice you might get from anyone. Just because it works for them doesn't mean it will for anyone else.

Originally posted by Jenna
Is it bad that the Incredible Hulk saying "You won't like me when I'm angry!" flashed through my mind?

Erm tbh that's kind of where my mind was lol! So i think you're fine. I just don't like the pill, male or female. Stick with condoms, IUD's and things of this nature i reckon. After seeing my ex go from happy and bubbly to suicidal within 3 weeks of starting the pill i have a big issue with it. I imagine men could easily turn aggressive or maybe just depressed in the same way. Can you imagine the first murder case where a guy says he was influenced by the pill? I've seen guys flip out on steroids so i know that danger.

Originally posted by Jenna
Eh, I'm used to it. I can see the issue from both sides since I deal with it daily, and there are options that would give each side a little of what they want if they'd just compromise. The problem is no one wants to compromise, they want what they want and to heck with everyone else.

edit on 2-11-2010 by Jenna because: Forgot a word.

I haven't agreed with someone this much the entire thread. This is my problem, people won't look at the other side and compromise. To look at something evenly is difficult but whenever someone even dares to tread a middle path or point out any part of the opposing movement that is unfair they are deemed sexist.

This is what prevents the debate, certain people who have an agenda and are basically hiding behind well meaning organisations and labels as a way to avoid criticism of their sexist views.

reply to post by Jenna


That's a little simplistic.

I don't think that it would take an academic very long to come up with a list of factors that help or hinder a long term committed relationship.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Can you imagine the first murder case where a guy says he was influenced by the pill? I've seen guys flip out on steroids so i know that danger.

Momentary insanity caused by a hormonal imbalance... It'd probably be treated the same as crime of passion. Of course it could go the other way too. I'd imagine that they'd have to decrease testosterone levels for it to work since low testosterone levels are a cause behind low sperm counts. That wouldn't necessarily increase estrogen levels, but having low testosterone tends to make men depressed along with a host of other issues. I'm sure quite a few would just get all weepy.

Tell you what some of you guys think a weepy woman is hard to deal with, I'm at a loss when it's a guy unless there's been a loss in the family. I don't know how to fix that. Of course, I don't know how to fix weepy women either but I think you get what I mean.

I haven't agreed with someone this much the entire thread. This is my problem, people won't look at the other side and compromise. To look at something evenly is difficult but whenever someone even dares to tread a middle path or point out any part of the opposing movement that is unfair they are deemed sexist.

Odd isn't it? Betcha thought we'd disagree more than we have. I try to walk down the middle most of the time because I can usually at least understand where both sides are coming from. People are just too quick to take offense to anything that they don't 100% agree with. It's rather irritating really.

This is what prevents the debate, certain people who have an agenda and are basically hiding behind well meaning organisations and labels as a way to avoid criticism of their sexist views.

In fairness, it happens on both sides. There are some women who truly are man-haters and would love nothing more than for men to be subservient. There are some men who are members of the Heman Woman Haters Club and want to take us back to when women were property. There are also a wide range of people between those two extremes and if you're female you tend to get lumped into the man-haters group even if you don't belong there as evidenced here and in similar threads. The same happens to men, though here it seems to be women who are more often lumped into a group they don't belong to. Or maybe I just notice it more when it's directed at me.

reply to post by Wildbob77


I could come up with a list too, but that wasn't my point. My list isn't going to be the exact same as your list, and chemistry between two people is either there or it isn't. There's no fool proof way to make sure that two people will hit it off in such a way that they stay together forever. I'm convinced chance plays a large part in who we end up with and no amount of planning can guarantee anything when it comes to relationships.

Originally posted by Jenna
Tell you what some of you guys think a weepy woman is hard to deal with, I'm at a loss when it's a guy unless there's been a loss in the family. I don't know how to fix that. Of course, I don't know how to fix weepy women either but I think you get what I mean.

Yep i get you, but i worked as security in a half way house for people with mental issues so i learned a lot about dealing with people in those situations.

Originally posted by Jenna
Odd isn't it? Betcha thought we'd disagree more than we have.

I try to walk down the middle most of the time because I can usually at least understand where both sides are coming from. People are just too quick to take offense to anything that they don't 100% agree with. It's rather irritating really.

Actually i never thought we'd disagree, to do that would mean i enter into a debate with an attitude, i judge people only on what they say and how they act.

Originally posted by Jenna
In fairness, it happens on both sides. There are some women who truly are man-haters and would love nothing more than for men to be subservient. There are some men who are members of the Heman Woman Haters Club and want to take us back to when women were property. There are also a wide range of people between those two extremes and if you're female you tend to get lumped into the man-haters group even if you don't belong there as evidenced here and in similar threads. The same happens to men, though here it seems to be women who are more often lumped into a group they don't belong to. Or maybe I just notice it more when it's directed at me.

Yep it happens on both sides and i'm pretty sure i said that My problem is that i've seen a few people who truly are man haters in this thread, they are presented with evidence or simply arguments that men are in some very specific areas treated unfairly and by raising these issues we're called misogynists. I do like to be fair but lets face it, men can't really raise these issues without being labelled misogynists, whereas women can usually raise their issues and be labelled as strong women fighting the good fight.

It's a tad unfair.

Bottom line.

If you make love to each woman as if she is the world's biggest liar, pants on fire, and act accordingly, well, you should have all your bases covered.

Puns most definitely intended.