Originally posted by MeSoCorny
I'd love to be able to do nothing. Isn't that everyone's life goal? Do as little as possible and be happy doing it? Come on.

That is why many women were tempted by feminism in the first place… because ignorant men thought they were doing nothing. They were raising their children, teaching them values, caring for the entire household, and setting the course for the future of an entire nation. The man came home from work and everything was in order and he didn’t even know.

When I read a book called “The Bonds of Womanhood” over 20 years ago about the women of New England between 1780 and 1885, I was totally amazed by reading some of the letters these women wrote to each other… These women knew the man didn’t have a clue as to the importance of their work at home raising their children… but these women were smart enough not to care what the men thought because they knew that they were grooming the future of an entire nation within their children and within their homes. They knew the entire future of a nation was in their hands and that their work was so vital that it wasn’t necessary for the man to know this truth.

These women were dependent on the men materially but were independent of the men in their thinking. Today women are the opposite… they are independent of the men materially but dependent on men in the way they think… they have to think like men to compete in the work place. What they do is dependent on what men do… they have to learn the jobs that men created and have always done. They have to become like men and that’s why deep down they are empty, unfulfilled and miserable.

And now society is so unstable it’s on the brink of total collapse because women are no longer independent in the way they think and behave… they have become totally dependent on the men.

These Rockefeller types, who are men, knew what they were doing by creating and financing the promotion of feminism.

As a woman I don't think that all men are would be rapists etc. In fact I don't know any woman who feels like that. But we do, generally, feel more vulnerable. I've had a few close calls in my life as have many of my friends. It's not helped by the number of magazines on the market portraying women as meat. That just adds a subtle undertone to life. The reality is, we can't just walk down a lonely city street at night without some care as to what could happen.
And though men do suffer from rape etc, it's mostly the other way round.
Anyhow, all this agonising about feminism is surely a throwback to the 60s. But I'll tell you what it means to me. Many years ago I was refused a mortgage because I was 'of chidbearing age'. Thank heavens that sort of thing can't happen now. As for the rest of it, I think both men and women needed 'liberating' in the past. I never wanted to have children. Somehow that childbearing urge passed me by. Conversely, there are many men who make good child minders, who are hopeless at DIY or mending cars.
So let's hear it for the freedom to be yourself.
No one, male or female, should be forced into stereotypes.

Well duh, but it's not exactly the fault of everybody who tried to make a decent sort of 'feminism' in the first place.

Academia is not exactly a free market. If you control the funding for the school, you get to pick the professors who do and don't get hired. You're probably too busy to micromanage, but then again, you could always veto somebody. And if you had an agenda, you WOULD do a little micromanaging. It'd be worth a phone call here and there. If you control the funding for journals and publishers, you can pick who gets to be a winner on that front too.

My understanding is that one or more of the Rockefeller's submarined "feminism" by funding the people who became its big winners.

Is it really any surprise that they picked the most dysfunctional, divisive writers to be the big successful leaders of "feminism" as it is defined by 'the academy' and those who inhabit it?

Seriously, just look at the people in this thread jumping in here for a knee jerk defense of "feminism" without taking a critical look at what exactly they are attacking or defending.

And yet the older feminists are waking up and noticing that when they talk to young people today, nobody wants to turn out like them, working all their lives for what amounts to nothing; no family to show for it, nothing to justify "independence" being any sort of desirable existence.

All they got was a bunch of pointless dates, random sexual encounters, relationships based on lies that neither party ever intended to last more than a month or two, and let's not forget, the joy of working.

Pretty much the only thing that can justify a life spent working is making sacrifices for one's family. But if you don't have a family, why do that to yourself? And if somebody isn't back at home raising your kids, then your "sacrifice" isn't going to help them anyway. They will grow up miserable and maladjusted and never be all that functional. Or maybe they won't. That however, will just be a roll of the dice.

But hey, don't think it's only the women who have been hoodwinked. Another great example of the same sort of effort to undermine positive, effective, life affirming ideology that would empower people is what has been done to "liberty" and "libertarians" over the past century. Just ask any professor, "liberty" can't build a road, all roads are socialist roads, don't you know? "Libertarian" actually means anarchist, is has nothing to do with George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or Andy Jackson or John Locke, I mean really, who were those guys anyway?

Hilariously enough, science is finding that many of the subtle and not so subtle agenda items that were supposed to be accomplished by destroying the family and keeping people unhappy, isolated, and separate, would have been best accomplished in the opposite fashion, by supporting traditional marriage. Check out evo psych and psychology and ecology in general, but keep an emphasis on science rather than theorizing, and pay attention mostly to the stuff from the past decade.

But this sort of topic always reminds me of a favorite quote...

"If there's war between the sexes then there'll be no people left." - Joe Jackson.

I don't think it is only destroying the male/female relationship, but it is destroying the own ideas that it was founded on. How do guys feel at ladies' night at the bar? Why do females get free drinks just because they have a vagina? Feminists will argue that they are allowed because the benefit is actually for the man; the purpose is to get more women to the bar than men. So, how does the male feel when he brings his girlfriend to the bar? She simply gets free drinks while he still has to pay (not that this is much different from.... let's not even get into this)? Furthermore, how do gay couples feel? Why do lesbians get free drinks, while gay men have to pay? Who decided that the tool in your crotch decided what you have to pay for? Is this equality? Feminism is very broken; it fights for the rights of women, but seals away the possibility for gender equality by picking and choosing the platforms on which females want to be "equal", not considering the areas in which this "inequality" favors females.

Its true that a feminist "lifestyle" has pro's as well as con's, however when looking at where we as a society want to go I feel that the feministic lifestyle will, on the long run, will have a degrading effect on accomplishing that goal... Its not about individual examples and experiences. The point is that society as a whole gains a messed up image of relationships. If I dont guide my daughters in this society, they WILL end up as freefought women who enjoy their sexual freedom without considering what it means if they ever want to settle down. The old fashioned system of monogamy and loyalty, where the man provides and the woman nurtures (simplistic breakdown) is the most suited to provide for both parties needs. A stay at home husband/father will not feel the satisfaction of providing for his family wich he instinctively desires. A woman providing for her family by means of a fulltime job WILL miss out on the joys of pumping their family full of love. Men and women are not equal, rather they ENHANCE their partners abilities. This is not possible, or at least in a lesser fashion, when the traditional roles of men and women are thrown out the window..

Why would one want to work more anyways? Some poster mentioned that even miljionares will keep working so only lazy people would want to work less... This is the consumption based thinking that TPTB want to promote.. Whoever thinks this way is playing right into the hands of whoever is pulling the strings... If you have a home, a loving family, a rich social life.. why in the world would you want more money? to show off? When you're on your deathbed, what is more valuable? your 2 year old mercedes S500 or your children, wife/husband AND grandchildren holding your hand?

Feminism was invented for 1 goal.... MONEY! Not to create a better life for women or their family's

Originally posted by prevenge

in this day and age, we have experiences and conversation that stimulate both aspects in each of us.
no man is 100% action... and 0% love.

no woman is 0% action and 100% love.

there are gradations of both in all of us.. it's a scalar fraction between the two.
the roles that were originated in the jungle.. developed out of survival and necessity for both of those aspects to express themselves most efficiently ...
ie: men perform the forceful ACTION of hunting and directing the tribe...
women performed the nurturing LOVE of food prep and birthing, child rearing.


our world is different now. men don't need to hunt
women don't need to food prep or have kids if they don't want to.

we still have these primal urges, but things are more complex now, and we have more TIME to think about other things.. and have more experiences that nurture our other side...

more omen are coming into positions of power.. expressing the masculine within them...
more men are getting in touch with more nurturing activities.. more of a connection to their inner feminine.

This puts it perfectly.
In fact there are infinite varieties in people. I never got 'the calling' to have kids. So I followed my own path. It was hardly some political, 'feminist' statement. But I suppose I felt more able to do that because thinking was opening up. Or would people prefer we go back to rigid stereotypes - ie you the female WILL stay at home to nurture the family, you the man WILL be the hunter/gatherer. BTW, there is nothing wrong about choosing to do that. Choice being the operative word.
It will all find its balance in the end.

Originally posted by tiger5
Do these anti feminists support unequal pay? Rape in Marriages? Domestic violence? pimping? General fear and terror in the household based on just being female???

I hope he doesn't

No, actually the vast majority of them don't support those things. I know quite a few other anti-Feminists and they simply oppose Feminism because of the way it brainwashes women and how it incites dislike and mistrust of men. Feminism convinces women to feel dissatisfied about their lives and fills them with feelings of resentment and unfulfilment.

There will be Extremist anti-Feminists that believe in those things you mentioned, but it has nothing to do with being anti-Feminism. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for being opposed to Feminism. In addition, there are a large number of women who oppose Feminist Ideology, so to call it an "anti-women group" or a group that "opposes rights for women" is incorrect.

As others have mentioned, another major problem with Feminism is that it selectively decides when equality is sought after. Coincidently, it supports equality in issues where women have the most to gain and men have the most to lose, and does not support equality in situations where men have the most to gain and women have the most to lose.

Originally posted by Brood
Is this equality? Feminism is very broken; it fights for the rights of women, but seals away the possibility for gender equality by picking and choosing the platforms on which females want to be "equal", not considering the areas in which this "inequality" favors females.

Actually we would not be having this debate if it was not for feminism.

People just don't seem to get the idea of a movement. Every that engages in a movement takes part in ther debate. I do like ladies night in a bar especially when I was single. I do like hanging out and drinking with a bunch of guys all the time.

I think some men are getting too whinney. I repeat there are gorgeous women out there that are reasonable. Many people yell oppression as a figleaf as they need to fix themselves first and not blame anyone else or any other group.

Tiger5

Originally posted by tiger5

What about equality of pay for doing the same job?

What about fairness of pay for doing more of a job? Let's get some perspective, here: I used to work at a coffee shop with a bunch of women -- typical gay guy working at a coffee shop, I know. Since I was a man I was repeatedly asked to do all of the heavy lifting, reaching, etc. I was also Shift Leader, so I had more responsibilities than everyone (except of course the other shift leader, the supervisor, and the manager). When I wasn't working, the women got the tasks done without me; they were capable of preforming the tasks, and they could do them quickly when they needed to, but usually at a much slower pace than I would, they didn't ask the female shift leader to do any of the lifting and reaching that is otherwise part of the counter staff's jobs, but everyone just assumed it was okay because I have a penis, therefore I have a higher possibility to be stronger, therefore I should be doing all the lifting; talk about sexist !

Well, one hernia and a carpel tunnel diagnosis later (age 18), I asked my female Manager for a raise. It was clear I deserved it I was doing a ridiculous amount of work for 25 cents above minimum wage, and I knew we were getting more business when I was working because I would walk by the shop in the mall and the lineups would be huge (which, for a coffee shop in a mall, means that they are slow behind the counter and people will look for other shops rather than wait in line). I got what I asked for, we discussed it and decided that I would get a pay raise of $1.50, as she could "barely afford the days" that I was not there. Anyways, lets face it, in a small business like this dominated by women, it was not long before everyone in the establishment knew, including the other shift leader. She managed to convince the entire staff that I was sexist and I thought I was better than everyone just because I was a guy, which was a total lie, I thought I was better than all of them because I was doing a better job of organizing myself to preform my tasks, and babysitting other people for the tasks they managed not to complete out of sheer laziness, if they were all men I would have done the same thing. I was being totally gender-blind -- the women were the ones that made it all about my penis somehow. My manager was forced to lower my wage through this apparent outrage to women's rights and the imposing on their "equality of pay for doing the same job".

I obviously quit. I began building condos with a construction company; working with my most recent oppressors from high school: straight men. I was obviously terrified of the potential ridicule, but if you have ever been on a construction site, you know that -- apart from break hours, of course -- all conversation is work related and to the point. Everything is very particular, very physically demanding, and very time-pressed; it needs to be done ONCE and it needs to be done PROPERLY. This is a concept that I used to practice at the coffee shop that none of the women there could seem to comprehend. From my experiences, I see that men have a much more refined work mentality than most women. Obviously I know a lot of women who have strong work skills, and I am not disrespecting them here; I am simply saying that most men have a much more appropriate attitude towards their work and they take it more seriously than a lot of women in the workplace. I have worked in much more multigender workplaces and there are signs of this in every one of my employments with specific people.

Honestly, I don't understand how feminists have managed to brainwash everyone into thinking a housewife is such a negative role; what could be more sacred than caring for a child? someone else providing, why is that such a big deal? Is this not the reason marriage has worked the way it has for so long? Is this not possibly why there is so much more demand for jobs than the business world can supply right now? What better way to facilitate procreation while caring for all parties of a family? I'm sorry, I'm gay and this straight relationship crap usually does not even interest me in the slightest, but this excessive feminism is definitely tainting the minds of women and in the last decade has created a lot more harm than it has good on American Society. I fear it is not long before Goodwin's law intervenes again; its a shame we always have to be at one polar extreme or the other with issues that have such a clear center point.

not many of my friends are marrying and a lot are single,
all i see on TV in the UK is date.com sites.

its unreal.people have forgotten how to communicate.
what is the core of the problem here?
everywhere i look i see packs of men and women but not mixing
i just don't get it,but then i do live in a creepy town LOL.

Originally posted by tiger5Funny thing is that they heyda of feminism has past the movement has splintered, post modernism has triumphed and the OP still finds fault with a movement that peaked in the late 70s/early 80s. Do these anti feminists support unequal pay? Rape in Marriages? Domestic violence? pimping? General fear and terror in the household based on just being female???

I hope he doesn't

Agreed.

Without feminism rape within marriage would still be legal.. and I'm pretty sure beating your wife was legally allowed under certain circumstances. Feminism was fixing relationships that were already destoyed. So do you guys wanna go back to those good ol days then?

Only girly men are afraid of feminists. Men need to grow a pair and shoulder some personal responsibility instead of all this crybaby placing of blame on women for their own inadequate performance in bed.

Any man that is feels his masculinity is threatened by strong women needs to do some serious introspection. Man up for Christ sake!

My GF is the ultimate feminist and I respect her for her independence, self reliance and strength.
Of course it's easy for me to say, being a brutally handsome, testosterone laden, paragon of masculinity.