Is Quantum Mechanics A Red Herring?

reply to post by Blazer


We may be wrong about how this device actually works.. I dont know but it's definitely a possibility. QM may be taking credit for things that aren't proof of QM...

Yeah, you wouldn't be surprised. That's right, it's not that anyone could ever possibly present evidence or sentiment that disagrees with your viewpoint, it's that they are all just disinfo agents.

I didn't say you were a disinfo agent.. but it is a definite possibility. I just think people shoiuld take note of that possibility when they see hostile or belittling responses to theories presented. It could be a greta indicator we are on the right track. And vice versa..

If what we are doing is disinformation and we are 'agents' then I guess I am already on the side that I want to be on. If we were to pick sides and this is the basis of how we draw the lines in the sand, I would bet that you and others like you that dismiss any information that contradicts your accepted reality as the work of disinformation agents will find that you have no one on your side.

It's true that any of us could be disinfo agents. I am no less suspect than anyone else from others viewpoint. We all need to be vveyr aware of this. But me pointing this out supports my stance doesn't it? If I was a disinfo agent I wouldn't be mentining it.

It is simply too easy (mentally) to call someone an agent of some kind.

What is easy I would imagine is disinfo agents making people's theories look silly they disagree with. Jim Garrison said he was treated this way when he was investigating the JFK assassination too. I would think it is very easy to ignore issues here on this site and bump actual disinfo threads to prevent people from discussing topics they want to. All someone would have to do is post some video with a flying saucer on the sit enow and make threads like this ignored. Especially when the people who post a theory like mine are treated with cat physicist pics...

I mean, that solution would account for so many things. Why is the world and society in such terrible shape? Oh, its all just because of this secret organization of a few people that are doing it all to everyone. I am sorry, but it is way more complex than just that. But, that is an easy answer that doesnt require much work. We dont have to investigate too much because hey, they are secret, there are hardly any records let alone admission of membership.

I agree that there are no perfect solutions as of yet. These super tehcnogoies bring their own poblems.. but I woud rather deal with those than be in the dark like sheeep. Besides. I don't think the secret societies have a better chance of dealing with this tech responsibly than we do.

Same with the OP, it sounds like everything you heard about quantum physics seemed like BS to you, you couldnt wrap your head around it and it just didnt make any sense to you. You might have watched a couple videos, some maybe had some people that seemed too new age for you and so you got that association and then, maybe other videos featured some people highlighting the fact that most of it all is theoretical.
You still couldnt wrap your finger around it so, your mind formulated an answer to make itself comfortable. It happens that you seemed to be ok with that answer.

I don't have a problem with QM because I can't understand it. if that was the case I would have a problem with lots of things. I have a problem with QM because it seems no one understands it.. and when you add everything together it makes perfect sense that it is a red herring used to keep us in the dark.

You're mistaking quantum physics, which is THE BASIS FOR ALL MODERN ELECTRONICS - in other words - VERY real, VERY provable, VERY much a reality - with the more recent theories.

On the other hand, you have physicists like Steven Hawking and Alan Guth making completely ad hoc theories and interpretations about black holes, hyper-inflationary theory, the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, dark matter, dark energy, etc.

THAT is the real conspiracy you should be focusing on - not quantum mechanics. The latter was basically invented at the turn of the century, before any Nazi experimentation or black projects. In fact, quantum mechanics is our best bet at reconciling the difference between subjective and objective reality - it has uncanny parallels in ancient philosophical and spiritual schools of thought - for example, both ancient peoples and quantum physics suggest that the world we experience in our waking life is secondary to a more primary "inner world" made of pure consciousness.

There are other parallels - and the "spooky action at a distance" of quantum entanglement, the wave-particle duality, superposition, all of these principles have parallels in ancient texts. It's absolutely fascinating to be honest, many modern physicists have commented on this phenomenon.

Originally posted by 8311-XHT


I didn't say you were a disinfo agent.. but it is a definite possibility. I just think people shoiuld take note of that possibility when they see hostile or belittling responses to theories presented. It could be a greta indicator we are on the right track. And vice versa..


It's true that any of us could be disinfo agents. I am no less suspect than anyone else from others viewpoint. We all need to be vveyr aware of this. But me pointing this out supports my stance doesn't it? If I was a disinfo agent I wouldn't be mentining it.

It is simply too easy (mentally) to call someone an agent of some kind.

What is easy I would imagine is disinfo agents making people's theories look silly they disagree with. Jim Garrison said he was treated this way when he was investigating the JFK assassination too. I would think it is very easy to ignore issues here on this site and bump actual disinfo threads to prevent people from discussing topics they want to. All someone would have to do is post some video with a flying saucer on the sit enow and make threads like this ignored. Especially when the people who post a theory like mine are treated with cat physicist pics...

You say that the easiest part is for a disinfo agent to discredit someones argument. Well, this can only be true if the original argument is FULL OF HOLES.

If you or anyone makes a strong argument with valid points and few variables then it will naturally be hard to discredit. But, when you come in here and propose a completely illogical theory that has no corroborative evidence and a million variables ANYONE would be able to pick your theory apart.

Its only easy to discredit someones theory if they havent spent much time on building it and have left it full of holes. So, you are basically saying that if anyone argues with the many delusional theories it is not because the theories are weak, but because the people are actually agents of some kind? Are you also saying that if a specific thread doesnt get bumped it is because the agents are bumping 'their' threads and thats it, not because there just isnt interest in it?

Yeah, sounds like the sentiment of person suffering from delusional paranoia. It is people like you that discredit our community with your paranoid delusions.

Here is a perfect example. You have come onto this board and proposed a unique theory that you are working on. Thats one of the great things about ATS is proposing new ideas. You have defined a division in the community here.

On one hand we have people like me and many others that come onto this board to be challenged. If an when we have new theories we post them on this message board for feedback, to hear what other people think about them. We learn from the responses and grow from that.

Then, there are people like you that post theories on this board not with the intention of collaboration or peer based feedback. You come on here posting your theories hoping to set them in stone, hoping to make them final, hoping that they will be seen as the last word.

While many of us desire and prefer to receive criticism from our peers because we acknowledge that thats how you learn, there are other delusional megalomaniacs that come on here thinking they know everything and "damn the world if they question me". Not only are people like you opposed to any form of criticism because you are too uncomfortable with the thought that you might not know everything, but you actually come on here and not only reject criticism but you accuse the critics of being disinfo agents of some kind.

Put your tin foil hat on, lock your doors and dont leave your home because everyone and I mean EVERYONE is out to get you, because you are so important. Because you have such cutting edge theories that we must silence you immediately.

OK, so I am a disinfo agent. If I am a disinfo agent I guess that makes you an agent of misinformation.

All of us disinfo agents are forming a crew. You better watch out because we are coming to a thread near you to punch more holes in your already colander like theories.

8311-XHT, go over to prison planet, you will find lots of peopl just like you there. No need to worry about people challenging you or not accepting your word as the final truth so long as you keep spouting stuff like this...

You say that the easiest part is for a disinfo agent to discredit someones argument. Well, this can only be true if the original argument is FULL OF HOLES.

You don't have to discredit the theory.. you just have to discredit the person. Like with Jim Garrison they made up all kind of wild stories to make him look illegitimate.

How does my theory have holes?

Its only easy to discredit someones theory if they havent spent much time on building it and have left it full of holes. So, you are basically saying that if anyone argues with the many delusional theories it is not because the theories are weak, but because the people are actually agents of some kind? Are you also saying that if a specific thread doesnt get bumped it is because the agents are bumping 'their' threads and thats it, not because there just isnt interest in it?

I am saying theories with merit could be getting run off the board by sensational threads and mass posting in general.. this would cause thought provoking threads to be missed by most people. And if you cater to a certain kind of mentality it keeps people who would want to discuss thought provoking theories from even staying around on this site.

Yeah, sounds like the sentiment of person suffering from delusional paranoia. It is people like you that discredit our community with your paranoid delusions.

So me thinking someone posting cat pictures in a thread without posting a legitimate argument is derailing the topic is delusional? Again.. you are making yourself sound like a disinfo agent hear IMO. You are completely contrdicting yor own statemnt as well IMO. If the theory was really poor it would be easy to shoot holes in and wouldn't require cat pictures. Othe rpeople also said they thought my theory was plausible so.. there you go..

Then, there are people like you that post theories on this board not with the intention of collaboration or peer based feedback. You come on here posting your theories hoping to set them in stone, hoping to make them final, hoping that they will be seen as the last word.

I would happily have legitimate criticism.. cat pictures isn't legitimate. Just because someone thinks something sounds ridiculous doesn't give them the right to trash that thread and the discussion. IMO that is a major read flag for disinfo as well.

Put your tin foil hat on, lock your doors and dont leave your home because everyone and I mean EVERYONE is out to get you, because you are so important. Because you have such cutting edge theories that we must silence you immediately.

I;m getting a strong disinfo vibe here.. for whatever that's worth?

OK, so I am a disinfo agent. If I am a disinfo agent I guess that makes you an agent of misinformation.

All of us disinfo agents are forming a crew. You better watch out because we are coming to a thread near you to punch more holes in your already colander like theories.

I think if you knew of any holes you would be tlaking aobut them instead of all this BS you are pumping out. Again.. sounds like pure disinfo tactic to me...

8311-XHT, go over to prison planet, you will find lots of peopl just like you there. No need to worry about people challenging you or not accepting your word as the final truth so long as you keep spouting stuff like this..

Again.. for the record.. I would gladly hear plausible arguments to my theory.. I don't know where you got the idea this was what I was against.. it's not. I am just against mocking cat pictures and belittling my idea without any real argument. Again.. if you had a real argument I think you would be talking about that.. not this mess. But thanks for your comments anyway.. it bumps the thread an maybe someone who really has something to say wil post.

I am just dumbfounded...

This is a classic case of "I don't understand it so it must not be real" kind of thinking. Yes ladies and gentlemen, Quantum Mechanics is a field of study and that field is very real.

Quantum mechanics and real world applications?? Geeze, this is like ugg and uggette just discovering the wheel and their peers saying but how come we don't have a Bugatti Veyron yet???

There are real world applications as someone mentioned the Electron tunnelling microscope but more recently we have Quantum Cryptography and in the not too distant future we will have Quantum computers.

The study of Quantum effects has given rise to Loop Quantum Gravity (LQG), a theory that accurately describes energy and matter and how it came into being. LQG actually explains entanglement and tunnelling, but it goes further, it explains that matter and energy are not separate from space-time, but is in fact made of space-time itself.

This means that if we gain the ability to alter space-time at the fundamental levels of reality, we can achieve a near limitless source of energy and literally be able to create anything we want from what would appear at our level of reality, nothing at all.

Please can those that have no understanding of Quantum Mechanics or High Energy Physics butt out and stop saying silly things like it doesn't exist.

As a scholar of Quantum Mechanics I challenge anyone whom thinks the Study of Quantum effects is false to point to anything they don't understand and I will personally do my best to explain it to them.

Education is the key!!

Korg.

8311-XHT,

My first few posts all included information specifically relevant to your theories, in no way have I spent all my time trolling you. Others said that your theories sounded legit? Oh, thats right, they were all the same people that were quick to point the disinfo finger which itself is pretty discrediting.

How is your theory full of holes? You have not presented any substantial evidence as to why you would believe that Quantum Mechanics is scientifically false. You have not posted any form of evidence having anything to do with science. All of your pieces of 'evidence' are speculations and terribly poor inductive reasoning.

Your theory is full of holes because you never even filled them before presenting your ideas. You cant just come on here with some theory about how an entire field of science is false and just provide speculation about why one MIGHT want to cover SOMETHING up. Thats all you presented, no critique of any of the principles presented by quantum theory or anything. You merely posted a theory about some hypothetical intention without presenting any tangible evidence of a conspiracy, cover-up or false scientific findings. You didnt present any of that, just hypothetical intention.

There is a point where skepticism turns into believing anything that is not mainstream.
I am so tired of people instantly suggesting disinfo JUST because the persons viewpoint is not that of the accuser, especially when the people being thought of as disinfo agents tend to be the only ones presenting logical thoughts and not just some fantasy that has nothing else supporting it other than the imagination of its inventor.

I suggest you read up on COINTELPRO. You will find that it is people like YOU that fall into the patterns that programs like COINTELPRO depend on.
The intent of COINTELPRO was to "increase factionalism, cause disruption and win defections". They did this by creating false rifts within their target communities and groups. How did they do this? By pointing fingers of speculation at members of their own community. They started rumors of snitching of lying of infiltrating of working with pigs and of course, of spreading disinfo.

The Feds learned that it didnt matter if anyone was really a snitch or a disinfo agent, so long as they were actively accused and enough people were accused at the same, there would be enough infighting, paranoia and fear that it would destroy the dynamics of the group and nothing would be accomplished.

You may say that I am an agent of some kind or someone else is, but it is you that is demonstrating the same traits that actually do have historical precedence and that actually have disintegrated organizations and communities the world over.

Learn up on the tactics of TPTB, reflect on your own actions and then tell me who is playing into their hands.
People spreading fear and constantly making claims of infiltration, without any real evidence other than paranoia have destroyed far more than any actual infiltrator or disinfo agent has.

Keep your eyes out, always be on alert, but no one wants to be the boy that cried wolf..

I have the urge to keep going but if it has taken this much already I feel that it is all falling upon deaf ears anyway.

Dont let paranoia get in the way and distract you from who the real enemies are.

Assuming that places like this are littered with disinfo agents is also assuming that anyone outside of our little communities gives a damn about what we are saying. Most people think alternative theory people are wackos from the get go, TPTB know that the information we promulgate will always be esoteric and the vast majority of people will either never hear our ideas or automatically dismiss them as nonsense. Because of that FACT which TPTB are very well aware of, I highly doubt that 'they' are putting in nearly as much effort to discredit us as some people would suggest.

Most of us are fringe, the masses will never even come close to even observing the fringe and TPTB know this. In relation to the rest of the world and everything else going on, Alternative theorists are a tiny speck. I am not claiming that there are not any disinfo agents, but we are not nearly a serious enough threat to the status quo for TPTB to invest nearly as much effort and resources as some would suggest. It doesnt take a genius or an insider to be able to research and realize how TPTB have worked and continue to work.

TPTB biggest desire in regards to the alternative theory community is to discredit us. If Disinfo agents were everywhere they would not be employing the tactics that have been suggested. It is typically held and claimed that disinfo agents infiltrate threads and try to disprove the theory being proposed. It is claimed that they do this by proposing the standard or accepted solution as the only possible one. It is also claimed that Disinfo agents flood message boards with mainstream or at least not such provocative material in attempts to cover up the unique and provocative threads.

Again, their goal would be to discredit us. As I see it, in order to achieve that they would want to employ tactics that are nearly exactly the opposite of the tactics they are accused of employing.

Their goal is to discredit us right? Why then would they spend their time covering up the most unique and sometimes provocative threads. Instead, a disinfo campaign would seek to pinpoint the "far out" and very unique threads that would seem crazy to sheeple and then put these "far out" theories into the public eye.

Even if some of our theories are 100% accurate, they would still sound crazy to sheeple and therefore discredit the community. I have made statements that TPTB are not stupid enough to use Alex Jones as a disinfo tool, but I was thinking too linear. TPTB's goal is not to disseminate incorrect information, their goal is to make sure that sheeple think that we are crazy and therefore ANYTHING we say is wrong or crazy. With this approach we can see that if AJ is or isnt a disinfo person, he is sure doing a great job of making us seem like wackos.

Your original theory about quantum mechanics would not be rushed to be covered up, they would rush to make sure all the sheeple hear all the crazy, nonsense theories that we are spouting, such as quantum physics being a farce and a conspiracy even though there are real experiments that anyone can do at home to demonstrate these theories.


Sorry bout ranting. all this boils down to is that we arent enough of a threat to TPTB for them to put nearly as much effort and resources into repressing us as some would suggest. In addition; their tactics and goals would likely be the opposite of those that some would suggest. Just because you're paranoid doesnt mean they are not out to get you, but it does mean that you have to question your perceptions with a more stringent eye.

First and foremost, I am not going to even pretend to understand Quantum Physics as a whole. I remember back in college some of the students who were physics majors and absolute ninjas at Newtonian Physics had their brains practically melt when they got into Quantum. One guy even dropped out entirely.

This stuff is hard, counter-intuitive and most of the time just bizarre. However, that does not mean it is a red herring. Just because we, the average people, cannot understand something without years of study in it does not mean it should be discounted entirely.

Now it is very possible, as is anything within theoretical sciences, that eventually large swaths of the things we believe to know now will be proven false at some point in the future, but that comes with the territory in super-science. Being a journalist, I like what I can see, verify and report upon. It is a popular saying among top-secret researchers that the things they are working on at government complexes are akin to "Star Trek stuff."

With this though comes one of the major issues that crops up in journalism school when dealing with potential conspiracies: which is more feasible?

On one hand we have Quantum Physics, with hundreds if not thousands of scientists working on at major universities all over the world. They write papers, peer-review them, and run experiments to test hypothesis every day. The majority of these people are not rock star scientists like Dr. Hawking, but just normal people who spend years and years studying.

On the other hand we have maybe a few hundred high-ranking military personnel and well-paid engineers working on government black projects. They do not publish their findings for peer-review, work at centralized locations in just a few places and the public generally only finds out about their work years after completion.

On top of this there is the issue of incentive to lie or otherwise exaggerate. The scientific process is designed to ferret out liars and falsifiers, this does not mean that it does not still happen, but it is exceedingly rare. Black projects however have a mystical air about them, as much a bit of PR fairy dust as engineering. For political reasons, keeping this magical appeal to it is needed, but as we saw in many Cold-War projects, it's not always real. The real-world MiG-31 Foxhound was much less cool and terrifying than the MiG-31 Firefox of Hollywood.

As such, from the viewpoint of a rational skeptic, I am much more inclined to believe that there is something to Quantum Physics, and the "Star Trek" tech that the governments are supposedly working on is where the red herring rests.

Originally posted by 8311-XHT

So me thinking someone posting cat pictures in a thread without posting a legitimate argument is derailing the topic is delusional? Again.. you are making yourself sound like a disinfo agent hear IMO. You are completely contrdicting yor own statemnt as well IMO. If the theory was really poor it would be easy to shoot holes in and wouldn't require cat pictures. Othe rpeople also said they thought my theory was plausible so.. there you go..

Good god I thought we got over this as you said in the other thread that you "had added me as a friend" but it appears not..

I did not post a cat picture in this thread without posting a legitimate argument, before the picture and after it II posted a number of times explaining why I thought your argument was wrong, giving you examples of electronics that use Quantum Mechanics and made reasoned arguments against what you were saying.

Your making out that I just came into this thread, posted a picture of a cat and then left....

Where exactly is the Disinfo in a picture of a cat with glasses, what kind of information is the picture conveying apart from the fact that i like cats.

Nothing EVER requires a cat picture, it was supposed to be a bit of fun for gods sake, and other posters in this thread could see it for the silly joke that it was.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


Just ask yourself this though.. if the government has developed somehting like antigravity or somekind of free energy.. and they are so worried aobut it getting out to the public for financial and security reasons becuase it would completely destabilize the economy AND could allow any person to go to Home Depot and essentially build themselves a nuke.. how would you prevent scientists from discovering this tech? To me Quantum Mechanics seems like the perfect method of derailing all of science.

I am of the belief that all these people we see publicly talking about aliens are government disinfo agents. I feel they are trying to hoazx others within the governemnt to belive these amazing crat they see and hear aobut are aliens rather than government crafts.

-John Lear's dad was part of a large group of corporations plannig on working together to develop anigrav fleew for CIA
-Hal Puthoff worked for Naval intelligence and according to Jack Saefatti had alien enounter when young
-Ingo Swann is a Remote Viewer for th goverment who wrote a book about remote viewing alines on the moon
-Bob Lazar is best buddies with John Lear and looks like Steven Greer's clone

Why would the government go to all this trouble to keep this technology secret? The reason is that when someone learns that something is possible it gives them a huge edge in working towards it themselves because they know what is possible and what isn't. If some other government didn't know antigrav was possible they would be less likely to dump huge sums of money into developing it. So by pretending aliens are responsible for the tech it makes it seem too difficut to pursue.

and again.. remember.. the best disinfo mixes real info in with false. This is what I think they have done with quantum mechanics. The basis of it was real. And they have likely planted info and theories to take us off course. I have seen real scientists debate this for long periods of time. There is no definitive proof that Quntum Mechanics is real on a fundamental level. Einstein did not belive it either.. and the scientific community ostracized him for fighting it.. this is EINSTEIN! If they can and would do that to Einstein with no definitive proof,,, then surely anything is possible.

Albert Einstien was one of the founding fathers of QM... Where are you getting this stuff from?

Einstiens theories include:-

the photon theory and the wave-particle duality, the quantum theory of atomic motion in solids, the zero-point energy concept, the semi-classical version of the Schrödinger equation, and the quantum theory of a monatomic gas which predicted Bose–Einstein condensation.

He had a problem with some aspects of it, like the lack of deterministic causality but he more or less invented it

n 1905 Albert Einstein interpreted Planck's quantum hypothesis realistically and used it to explain the photoelectric effect, in which shining light on certain materials can eject electrons from the material. Einstein postulated that light itself consists of individual quanta of energy

Originally posted by davespanners

Originally posted by 8311-XHT

So me thinking someone posting cat pictures in a thread without posting a legitimate argument is derailing the topic is delusional? Again.. you are making yourself sound like a disinfo agent hear IMO. You are completely contrdicting yor own statemnt as well IMO. If the theory was really poor it would be easy to shoot holes in and wouldn't require cat pictures. Othe rpeople also said they thought my theory was plausible so.. there you go..

Good god I thought we got over this as you said in the other thread that you "had added me as a friend" but it appears not..

I did not post a cat picture in this thread without posting a legitimate argument, before the picture and after it II posted a number of times explaining why I thought your argument was wrong, giving you examples of electronics that use Quantum Mechanics and made reasoned arguments against what you were saying.

Your making out that I just came into this thread, posted a picture of a cat and then left....

Where exactly is the Disinfo in a picture of a cat with glasses, what kind of information is the picture conveying apart from the fact that i like cats.

Nothing EVER requires a cat picture, it was supposed to be a bit of fun for gods sake, and other posters in this thread could see it for the silly joke that it was.

You also said you were drunk... and no I don't think it was a legitimate argument. If it was there would have been no need for the cat picture.

I wouldn't have brought it up if people weren't still bugguing me about the whole deal as if I did somehting wrong.. so no I am not the one with the beef.

Originally posted by davespanners
Albert Einstien was one of the founding fathers of QM... Where are you getting this stuff from?

Einstiens theories include:-

the photon theory and the wave-particle duality, the quantum theory of atomic motion in solids, the zero-point energy concept, the semi-classical version of the Schrödinger equation, and the quantum theory of a monatomic gas which predicted Bose–Einstein condensation.

He had a problem with some aspects of it, like the lack of deterministic causality but he more or less invented it

n 1905 Albert Einstein interpreted Planck's quantum hypothesis realistically and used it to explain the photoelectric effect, in which shining light on certain materials can eject electrons from the material. Einstein postulated that light itself consists of individual quanta of energy

You aren't paying attention to what I am saying.. I said that QM was based on somehting real. I said it wasn't all fabricated or disinfo or a red herring.

That is what makes good disinfo.. it includes real and BS information. As I said.. the foundation of QM is real.. but they have included all kinds of dinfo in it and tried to package it together as you said where Einstein did not believe in it.

I am paying attention to exactly what you say and what you said was

There is no definitive proof that Quntum Mechanics is real on a fundamental level. Einstein did not belive it either.. and the scientific community ostracized him for fighting it.. this is EINSTEIN!

Which as I just pointed out is blatantly untrue, how can Einstein not have believed in Quantum Theory when he was one of the people who invented it..,
I would say that posting statements that are blatantly untrue is "disinformation" wouldn't you? Who's the disinfo agent now?

Have you even bothered to read what the phrase "quantum theory" actually means?

reply to post by davespanners


You just got through saying how Einstein didn't believe in major elements of Qunatum Mechanics.. it is very funny that you seem to not want to be perceived as a disinfo agent but you sure do act like one.

One of the things that makes Quntum Mechanics so difficut to discredit is that again.. it has real elements mixed in with BS elements. I don't think that is an accident. And I don't think it is an accident you are trying to defend QM as a whole with Eisntein when he is known to have disagreed with it. At least he disagreed with what QM proponents did with it.

Originally posted by 8311-XHT
reply to post by ProjectJimmy

 

Just ask yourself this though.. if the government has developed somehting like antigravity or somekind of free energy.. and they are so worried aobut it getting out to the public for financial and security reasons becuase it would completely destabilize the economy AND could allow any person to go to Home Depot and essentially build themselves a nuke.. how would you prevent scientists from discovering this tech? To me Quantum Mechanics seems like the perfect method of derailing all of science.

I am of the belief that all these people we see publicly talking about aliens are government disinfo agents. I feel they are trying to hoazx others within the governemnt to belive these amazing crat they see and hear aobut are aliens rather than government crafts.

-John Lear's dad was part of a large group of corporations plannig on working together to develop anigrav fleew for CIA
-Hal Puthoff worked for Naval intelligence and according to Jack Saefatti had alien enounter when young
-Ingo Swann is a Remote Viewer for th goverment who wrote a book about remote viewing alines on the moon
-Bob Lazar is best buddies with John Lear and looks like Steven Greer's clone

Why would the government go to all this trouble to keep this technology secret? The reason is that when someone learns that something is possible it gives them a huge edge in working towards it themselves because they know what is possible and what isn't. If some other government didn't know antigrav was possible they would be less likely to dump huge sums of money into developing it. So by pretending aliens are responsible for the tech it makes it seem too difficut to pursue.

and again.. remember.. the best disinfo mixes real info in with false. This is what I think they have done with quantum mechanics. The basis of it was real. And they have likely planted info and theories to take us off course. I have seen real scientists debate this for long periods of time. There is no definitive proof that Quntum Mechanics is real on a fundamental level. Einstein did not belive it either.. and the scientific community ostracized him for fighting it.. this is EINSTEIN! If they can and would do that to Einstein with no definitive proof,,, then surely anything is possible.

Oh I am not saying at all that these kind of things are not being worked upon, in fact governments are not the only ones working on them either. The University of Toronto I remember reading is currently working on gravity manipulation as well.

What I am saying however is that governments are much more likely to exaggerate or lie about the things they are working on than universities. Remember the United States did not actually have a "stealth fighter" until the F22 Raptor, regardless of the PR they had for the F117 Nighthawk which was a stealth light-bomber in reality.

It is entirely possible that these things are being developed, and I do think you're right to a point about keeping such things secret until the time is right. However, if they have these technologies, it is pointless for governments to develop them without an application. Hard sciences and research without real-world usage are the realm of universities.

On top of this, the big hole in your theory is the lack of proof except for testimony of people with agendas. In journalism these sources would be considered hopelessly biased and not worth the time to debunk. Meanwhile, people like Dr. Hawking and other physics professors have no agenda beyond the advocacy of their theories and they are subject to peer-review.

As for the absolute proof of Quantum Mechanics, well as I said before I am positively no expert on the matter, but what kind of proofs are you looking for? There are lots of theoretical ideas in the natural sciences, and I haven't heard of anyone yet calling anything Quantum a law. This is expected in my mind though especially because of the incredibly small scale that Quantum works on.

There are several experiments that lead to Quantum Theory, and I have seen people on this thread just simply dismiss those as basically "well what if something else is going on?" I would say instead that this is not an excuse, because it's far too easy to just dismiss something as part of your personal conspiracy ideas.

I am a firm believer that us few and glorious conspiracy researchers should be the ultimate skeptics. It sounds as if you have convinced yourself of quite a bit here. Perhaps before you continue to throw stones at currently studied scientific theories while postulating that there is some massive cover-up going on based entirely on hearsay evidence, you should be examining why you want this to be true.

reply to post by 8311-XHT


You have just done what you accused disinfo agents of doing,

You used a little bit of truth i.e. Einstein had a problem with a part of quantum physics that seemed to counter determinism" and mixed it with a lie that "Einstein didn't believe in quantum physics"
This is exactly what you have been accusing other people of doing

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


The thing is.. I have been studying this scientist called Randell Mills and his claims for several years... please read this article..

www.villagevoice.com...

Just about a year ago a college in New Jersey right near this guys labs was funded by Mills to do a study on Mills' science and they validate many of Mills' claims.

NASA funded a study on using Mills' tech for a revolutionary rocket design and the guy who evaluated Mills devices said they looked legit and were producing strange power levels with no known reason.

I have been watching this debate for years.. and I have seen both sides of the argument. It truly is a religious debate. As I see it physics has been in a dead holding pattern since right around WWII. Yes we have made advances.. but they seem to be more by accident and random trial and error than anything QM predicts.

I had come to this conclusion before I made my most recent discovery..

My most recent discovery is a bit more difficult to explain.. I am just going to make an outline of it.

1. My Dad witnessed a UFO "flying saucer" up close and personal with his best friend in the late 60s. I didn't realize until just recently that the UFO my dad saw was exactly like the one Bob Lazar described being at area 51 and being alien.

2. Watched this program and learned of Remote Viewing. Researched Remote Viewing. video.google.com...#

3. Disocvwered a book by Ingo Swann detailing how he Remote Viewed the moon and saw aliens on there and they were keeping us off. This blew my mind. At this point I am beliveing aliens are real and the governemnt is covering it up and ESP is real. check scribd - Penetration

4. Then I discovered Ingo swann,, who got his ESP power from L ron Hubbard. Also learned that head of Remote Viewing unit was also trained by Hubbard - Hal Puthoff. I have known Hubbard was full of BS for a long time. Then leaned Hal Puthoff worked for Naval intelligence.

5. Then read book writen by Nick Cook called the Hunt for Zero Point. Check Scribd This gave definitive proof in my mind that flying saucer were developed by the Germans -- Viktor Schauberger in WWII. Realized that the government has been hiding antigrav and probably free enrgy since WWII. And this also accoutns for strange disinfo cmapign by Lazar and likely John lear etc.. Hal Puthoff Ingo Swann.

6. Discovered Hal Puthoff ended up in posession of tech Viktor Schauberger had taken from him by agent sof US government.. and pieces of his tech musteriousl y disappeared.. Learned that Hal Puthoff has had a hadn nin may companies trying to develop revultioary tech.. seemed to be working as dusruptor.

7. Discovered jack Sarfatti.. his strange alien story AND his ties to quantum mechanics.. realise that to suppress these super technologies you must also suppress education and the educational system. I have always thoguth there was somehting seriously worng with our educational syste, Why is richest most powerful country so horrible with education? Why is science so demphasized in this country?

So here we are with our government pushing psychic powers and science pushing eqaully bizarre quantum behavior.. an yet if you tlak aobut antigravity you are called a nut..

Seems incredibly obvious to me what is going on...

reply to post by 8311-XHT


See the issue I am having with your line of thinking is that you are assuming the conspiracy, to you it is a logical given as opposed to something that is up for debate. This makes you a partisan not a researcher. You do not like Quantum Theory because it is counter-intuitive to Newtonian Physics, and you want to believe that there are both aliens visiting earth and a government conspiracy to both keep it all under wraps and control the technology in a way that the government does not do.

What I am saying is the reason these things are obvious to you is because you have convinced yourself of them based upon things that are not scientific or even what we would call trusted sources in journalism, you want such things to be true.

Everything you have talked about can have a much more reasonable explanation than the ones you have presented, and a critical and skeptical mind will do you a lot of good in realizing that.

See the issue I am having with your line of thinking is that you are assuming the conspiracy, to you it is a logical given as opposed to something that is up for debate.

But you have to realize.. I am in a unique position. My dad saw somehting very up close and personal. There is no known explanation for this. There is no technology that could allow this other than antigravity.

Also watch this..

www.youtube.com...

And then do all the reaeacrh I have. In Nick cook's book he lays out factual data documenting and tracing this technology all through history. I feel very confident what I am seeing is REAL. Ther eis a chance I am worng and am misreading the info.. but I don't think it is likely. I don't see how quantum mechanics and sceicne in general can be legitimate when considering what I know to be true. and occam's razor really supports my stance.

This makes you a partisan not a researcher. You do not like Quantum Theory because it is counter-intuitive to Newtonian Physics, and you want to believe that there are both aliens visiting earth and a government conspiracy to both keep it all under wraps and control the technology in a way that the government does not do.

Wrong and wrong.. I am saying I DON'T belive in aliens.. the whole alein story is a coiver up and disinfo to hide man made tech,

What I am saying is the reason these things are obvious to you is because you have convinced yourself of them based upon things that are not scientific or even what we would call trusted sources in journalism, you want such things to be true.

How can you say that without evaluating what I have? It sounds like you have this backwards..

Everything you have talked about can have a much more reasonable explanation than the ones you have presented, and a critical and skeptical mind will do you a lot of good in realizing that.

Again.. how can you say that without evaluating the info? What you are saying is that there can be no proof.. and nothing can be proved.. maybe in quantum mechanics that is ture.. but not anything else. Again.. you also sound loike a disnfo agent claiming nothing can be proven. Just because it's a conspiracy doesn't mean there is no proof,.