Yet Another Martian Anomaly

I for one would take this thread a little more seriously if instead of posting more and more irrelevant images, the points raised were addressed and the science was considered and debated.

But it seems the agenda here is to beat up a fantasy, rather than address the reasons things are done as they are.

There is a reason that *scientists* drive these missions. They gather *useful* data, rather than take pretty pictures.

If you are serious about having a better approach, please provide full details. Including exactly which sensor you think would be suitable, what type of images you would take, and why.

As yet, I've seen absolutely NO explanation of why colour balancing a Mars image to approximate an astronaut's eye view is important.

Anyone?

reply to post by zorgon

I find the images from the rovers and MOC quite fascinating. But maybe that's just me. I don't really care what color the sky is.

Apollo 11? You mean black and white TV? Or do you mean the Hasselblad images? Film does a pretty good job of getting color right but it's kind of hard (and slow) to get it back from Mars. But with Apollo 11 the science was actually kind of secondary, as opposed to the Mars missions which are purely scientific. Remember this:

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

What data are you looking for? What do you consider "left overs"? The raw images are available. You are free to combine the images using any colors you wish but they still won't be true. But when MSL gets there you'll get your pretty, true color images. Don't be surprised if you don't see a blue sky though.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

The MSL (scheduled for launch next year) will carry cameras which operate in the same manner as "standard" digital cameras. Using Bayer pattern filters, they will provide full color images rather than filtered grayscale images which will need to be further processed. The Bayer filters use broadband red, green, and blue filters. The colors will be as true as those produced by the cameras used here on Earth.

They will still have to use a target to set the white point or the color will not be true. That is also true of the even the best Professional level DSLR's. To get the best color match, I still have to shoot a white target before each set of photo's due to the changing light environment here on earth. The cheapo consumer cameras have presets that approximate, but for color accuracy you still have to have a know target and a camera capable of setting the white point based on a target.

My newest Nikon bodies do an excellent job with the presets, but I still reset the white point with a target when I have the time before shooting. The color of lighting changes constantly throughout the day.

-------

On the hematite nodules; I've collected boxes full of them in Utah when I was a kid out prospecting with my Father. Even in Utah the grey / bluish ones are quite common, but they are mostly of the reddish variety. In a University Geology Lab, I gave the Professor a box of them and he could not identify them at first. I was amazed by that in fact, since they are so common among rock enthusiasts in the area I grew up. He had a Grad student confirm what they were before he would venture a guess. My point is not that this guy was not knowledgeable, because he was. My point is that the variety of minerals and their forms are so diverse that it is possible, even a Tenured Professor of Geology could look at something quite common and never have seen it before. How much more so with people with limited schooling in the subject being able to identify anything from a photo not even of true color.

reply to post by Blaine91555

That's true.

But using a white target on the surface of Mars is problematic. It would provide the true color of objects if they were under "white" light. Is sunlight on the surface of Mars "white"? Sunlight filtered through that dust would have a red tinge. A piece of paper which looks white (to our eyes) in Earthly sunshine would not appear white on the surface of Mars.

Do we want to know what the colors would be if they were on Earth or how they would appear if we were standing on Mars? Tricky.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

That's true.

But using a white target on the surface of Mars is problematic. It would provide the true color of objects if they were under "white" light. Is sunlight on the surface of Mars "white"? Sunlight filtered through that dust would have a red tinge. A piece of paper which looks white (to our eyes) in Earthly sunshine would not appear white on the surface of Mars.

Do we want to know what the colors would be if they were on Earth or how they would appear if we were standing on Mars? Tricky.

Exactly, and it's even more complex than that - the dust/atmosphere affected light may have 'spikes', in other words the frequency distribution may have narrow (but large) variations rather than being a smooth curve. Filtration doesn't work well for that.

An earthly example of this is fluorescent lighting, which has some spikes in it and often causes images taken, even when using matched filtration, to have green or magenta hues.

Seriously, they could spend millions of dollars researching this topic alone, just in the effort to get a 'proper' white balanced image. And for what? The people calling for this have yet to provide any reason it is so important. Nor have they acknowledged the many examples where it has already been done to a reasonable level of accuracy.

So clearly it won't matter - no matter what images are taken it will be unsatisfactory for some.

They can't get no satisfaction...

Originally posted by zorgon
They feed the IT'S RED crowd...

and on the same site they feed the IT'S BLUE crowd...

I say we take up a collection and buy them a couple of old fashioned point and shoot cameras and get us a few decent pictures. Perhaps all that high tech stuff is just too much for them to handle

I can show you red photos
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/c62d5a8386ca706d.png[/atsimg]

brown photos
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/7cc74ee7428a07d8.png[/atsimg]

or blueish photos
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/01f9bf995b8019e5.png[/atsimg]
with no need for a new camera.

As for the red skies, is really the type of dust relevant to the colour? Isn't it a question of the dust acting as a filter, regardless of its composition?

Originally posted by Phage
What data are you looking for?

Oh I dunno... maybe the files they keep here?

webdrive.gsfc.nasa.gov...

I got one so far

Originally posted by Blaine91555
They will still have to use a target to set the white point or the color will not be true.

They can use the LEDs method used on Phoenix, or some other method like that, in which they know exactly the wavelength of the ligth.

Originally posted by ArMaP
I can show you red photos
brown photos
or blueish photos
with no need for a new camera.

Yes you can... that is why I suggested buying them a few of those $5.95 disposable point and shoot cameras. Then there would be no monkey business with filters.

They could send back the photos with the next space engineer shift change. I suppose though NASA would need to spend a few $100K to make a device to click the shutter...

Ah well.. hopefully Matt will have that two seater done before I get to old to fly it

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

 

Scientists, geologists in particular, do not care about "correct and original" colors. There is much more to be learned about mineralogy by using particular wavelengths, most of which are not visible to the human eye. That is why the imagers use those wavelengths.

The cameras are not there to provide pretty pictures with "true colors". They are there to provide scientific data.

Yes i do see your points that you have raised but with all due respect Phage my initial discrepancy and even wonder was WHY there has been NO technology available to take "pretty" or true colour saturation pictures that show the correct colours of Mars.Surely NASA are aware of the amount of speculations, suspicions and natural questions being raised by people all over the world on possible NASA colour saturation manipulation on pictures they have released of Mars.What i am saying here is NASA could end all that speculation and conspiracy warmongering with one or more true pictures of Mars with this technology if it was a reality and available in the past or now.Cheers for the reply anyway and take care for now.

reply to post by Blue Shift


They are never going to get thier overpaid under worked rears in gear and get us anywhere , unless people stop apologising for them, and making excuses for them . Its the twenty first damned centuary and nothing has changed a god damn. That is not what they get paid for... at the moment however they get paid for doing NOTHING but fixing old crap, and get paid for NOT finding answers. Man I wish I had a job that godamned easy!

how long is it gonna take to get some audio from up there?

that's my big question.


anyone know if they found some borax, yet?

little question.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by K-PAX-PROT

NASA really doesn't care about the conspiracy speculation. They have larger concerns (like science) and it doesn't affect them. If anything, it helps keep interest in their planetary programs. Interest that can encourage funding.

Of course the technology has been available to provide "true color" images but putting that technology on a spacecraft means that some other bit of technology would be sacrificed. On each mission there is "battle" between scientists. Each one has their pet project which is absolutely, positively, the most important one. Each project takes up space, weighs something, costs something, and uses power. They can't all go.

As has been pointed out, the MSL will have the capability. Compared to Spirit and Opportunity, it's a monster. It's carrying a lot more equipment than those little guys (Mars Science Laboratory). It's also costing 2.3 billion dollars. How's that for creating controversy? And guess what? Even when it sends its pictures back, people will still cry foul. I promise.

Like it or not, NASA is following a plan for robotic exploration of Mars which was first developed years ago. Believe it or not, they really are looking for signs of life on Mars. But Mars is a big place, with a wide range of conditions. Each mission teaches us more and also presents more questions to ask. The men and women working on the projects have ideas about how to go about answering those questions. Anyone who thinks they have a better idea about how to do it is welcome to go through the process (of hard work, school, and stuff) to put themselves into a position to help make the decisions that have to be made. But I wouldn't be surprised if after doing that, "true color" images would not be high on the list.

But again, in a couple of years we will get those pictures.

Our Exploration Strategy: Follow the Water!

To discover the possibilities for life on Mars--past, present or our own in the future--the Mars Program has developed an exploration strategy known as "Follow the Water."

Following the water begins with an understanding of the current environment on Mars. We want to explore observed features like dry riverbeds, ice in the polar caps and rock types that only form when water is present. We want to look for hot springs, hydrothermal vents or subsurface water reserves. We want to understand if ancient Mars once held a vast ocean in the northern hemisphere as some scientists believe and how Mars may have transitioned from a more watery environment to the dry and dusty climate it has today. Searching for these answers means delving into the planet's geologic and climate history to find out how, when and why Mars underwent dramatic changes to become the forbidding, yet promising, planet we observe today.

Future Missions

To pursue these goals, all of our future missions will be driven by rigorous scientific questions that will continuously evolve as we make new discoveries.

Brand new technologies will enable us to explore Mars in ways we never have before, resulting in higher-resolution images, precision landings, longer-ranging surface mobility and even the return of Martian soil and rock samples for studies in laboratories here on Earth.

mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

Originally posted by fooks
anyone know if they found some borax, yet?

Spirit was digging up all kinds of salts when it was dragging its broken wheel around...







Deep Tracks In Colorful Salt

The yellow stuff? SULFUR seems the 'color' is pretty close as you can see the white salts and the yellow sulfur. Not sure what the blue stuff is though

For those who prefer NASA colors...


This image shows the strikingly bright tone and large extent of the materials uncovered by NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Spirit. (NASA/JPL-Caltech/Cornell)

Yup still looks yellow like SULFUR

Sulphur-rich soil on Mars puzzles scientists

The discovery of Martian soil containing high quantities of sulphur and traces of water has sparked new questions about activity beneath the planet's surface. Scientists are puzzling over the contents of the bright white and yellow soil, first discovered after Mars rover Spirit churned it up while struggling to cross a soft patch of soil in the Columbia Hills region nearly a year ago. The material consists of sulphate salts associated with iron and likely calcium, substances not expected to be found on the planet's surface. Some scientists have speculated the materials might have been deposited in ancient times by liquid water on what is now thought to be a dry planet. However, Ray Arvidson, the deputy principal investigator for NASA's twin Mars rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, said that is only one possible explanation. "This material could have been left behind by water that dissolved these minerals underground, then came to the surface and evaporated, or it could be a volcanic deposit formed around ancient gas vents," Arvidson said in a statement.

www.cbc.ca...

Well at least the NASA scientists agree that it is SULFUR! Seems this Arvidson guy has never seen a dry lake bed in Nevada

Deep Tracks In Colorful Salt

Originally posted by Phage
NASA really doesn't care about the conspiracy speculation.

Yes they do... they sent Jim Oberg And they have Phage defending their honor

Like it or not, NASA is following a plan for robotic exploration of Mars which was first developed years ago.

Yeah... and Russian Buran needed no pilot... Russian Progress ships need no pilot, the new x-37 'secret' space plane is doing something up there and it has no pilot... its like Bigelow says NASA = No Access to Space for Americans..

So let the robots explore the solar system... it will give people more time to hang out on ATS... kids wanna be astronauts? Forget it the robots have it covered

Believe it or not, they really are looking for signs of life on Mars. But Mars is a big place, with a wide range of conditions.

Well maybe they would have better luck if they didn't keep landing in desolate areas like the Atacama Desert (mars version)

The men and women working on the projects have ideas about how to go about answering those questions.

Yeah we saw that with the "Bombing of the Moon" mission... class act that

Anyone who thinks they have a better idea about how to do it is welcome to go through the process (of hard work, school, and stuff) to put themselves into a position to help make the decisions that have to be made. But I wouldn't be surprised if after doing that, "true color" images would not be high on the list.

Working on that... seems we only need about 30 Million to build that two seater... not bad And photo opps are DEFINATELY on the list

But again, in a couple of years we will get those pictures.

That's what you said about China's Chang-E 1, India's Chandrayaan-1, Japan's SELENE

They went they saw they scattered debris all over the moon for future anomaly hunters and guess what? Still waiting for the pictures

One question... how much is NASA paying you to carry their torch?

I too fail to see why NASA should take conspiracy theorists serious. But then again they are paying me $20/hour to do this. My main objective is to crush people's SCI-FI fantasy and inject disinformation in this forum

reply to post by Phage


A white target would still work to set the white point. It gives very accurate color for instance in the case of a red sunset even though the target is in the same light. The color of the target is compared to a known value to tell the camera how to compensate. Of course it will never be perfect and I spend more time trying to get what I see on a monitor to match what I print than I do taking photo's. They could get a close approximation which is the best we could hope for without somebody actually being there to adjust.

Those targets on the probe I'm sure give them fairly accurate colors with a lot of tweaking after the fact. If you know the true color of the targets a close approximation is possible and when NASA labels images as true color they are likely close.

reply to post by zorgon

I don't recall saying anything about Chang but Chandrayaan and Kaguya provided some very good data. And, as expected, the data is rejected by the conspiracy crowd because (surprise) there were no cities on the Moon.

I'm not being paid by NASA. Who's paying you to be such a jerk?

I have resisted to say this when is Terra-forming Mars is going to happen ?

i see alot of Anomaly's of Mars from NASA it self besides Conspiracy sites
I Usually look towards Foreign Sites for a second Opinion .. a more out of the Cloud kind of way

Could there be life On Mars! Sure as i posted this Before

1) Tardigrade
en.wikipedia.org...

Behold The Mighty, Microscopic Water Bear
www.npr.org...



2) Bacteria !! NASA Surveyor III and thats surviving on the moon !
science.nasa.gov...

3) Algae
Traces of stowaway Algae Could Survive on Mars, Study Finds

* Source: University of Florida Gainesville
* Posted Monday, May 30, 2005

www.spaceref.com...

Terra forming

How stuff works site LOL
science.howstuffworks.com...

The Video Below Im not sure as i haven't researched these NASA pics
yet there Interesting if they are the Legit Photos of Mars

Vegetation ? Life on Mars ? Does NASA lie ?


Forrest on Mars
mmmgroup.altervista.org...

Well back in 1957 they thought Vegetation could be possible
with no probe nor any satellite to make a close observation
even tho it was one month before Sputnik was launched when this was written

SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)
Title: Spectroscopic Evidence for Vegetation on Mars.
Authors: Sinton, W. M.
Journal: Astrophysical Journal, vol. 126, p.231
Bibliographic Code: 1957ApJ...126..231S
adsabs.harvard.edu...

Well I Guess NASA is Planing Terra forming After All! ? well... its a start even tho they are inside a protected environment
Designer Plants on Mars
05.16.05

Take the cold tolerance of bacteria that thrive in arctic ice, add the ultraviolet resistance of tomato plants growing high in the Andes mountains, and combine with an ordinary plant. What do you get? A tough plant "pioneer" that can grow in Martian soil. Like customizing a car, NASA-funded scientists are designing plants that can survive the harsh conditions on Mars. These plants could provide oxygen, fresh food, and even medicine to astronauts while living off their waste. They would also improve morale as a lush, green connection to Earth in a barren and alien world.

www.nasa.gov...

Now Whos to say they NASA did not Genetically make some kind of Flora like Evergreens or Algae to withstand the Environment Near some Bodys of water say like in the 70s How Close is Technology to be like the the Movie Called Red Planet Sure its just a Wild out of the ball park guess.

Thats if!!
Mars Core is Like earths for any of it to work!!!

Scientists Say Mars Has A Liquid Iron Core
ScienceDaily (Mar. 7, 2003)
www.sciencedaily.com...

Lab study indicates Mars has a molten core
* 16:53 31 May 2007 by David Shiga
www.newscientist.com...

Mars' Gooey Core is Freezing
By Dave Mosher

Andrew Stewart, a planetary geochemist at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, said Mars' cooling core might restore magnetism to the red planet. "If liquid metal moves around a solid core, it could create a natural dynamo like the one found in Earth's core," said Stewart, who co-authored the study detailed in today's online edition of the journal Science.

www.space.com...

Isnt great to Imagine and to be Inspired by your thoughts Alone those Imaginations became Inventions From Dreams to Reality a website that explains this would be Technovelgy.com


Isnt there A slight Increasing of Methane ?
Martian Methane Reveals the Red Planet is not a Dead Planet
www.nasa.gov...

New light on Mars methane mystery BBC News
news.bbc.co.uk...



ScienceDaily (Dec. 8, 2009) — Scientists have ruled out the possibility that methane is delivered to Mars by meteorites, raising fresh hopes that the gas might be generated by life on the red planet, in research published in Earth and Planetary Science Letters.
www.sciencedaily.com...

Why? Tell Me Why!: Methane on Mars Video
news.discovery.com...

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Blaine91555
They will still have to use a target to set the white point or the color will not be true.

They can use the LEDs method used on Phoenix, or some other method like that, in which they know exactly the wavelength of the ligth.

That's a new one for me. I'll have to look that up and see how it works.

As I understand in setting the white point it compares the reading it gets from a known white target and adjust from that. I do know I can shoot in pretty much any light and get a good image by using that capability. I need to do more looking into how it works.

I'm not entirely sure why people place so much importance on exact colors anyway. Proves nothing, solves nothing.