I'm old enough to remember a time of real freedom and liberty here in the U.S.A. A time when I and my friends hand fun in the northern suburbs of Buffalo, NY doing pretty much what we liked, and we liked what we did. Oh sure, sometimes our streethockey puck would trash a neighbor's window, one of us would use a step ladder wrong, or we'd get a little too loud at night. In the end, we paid for the windows, have some scars, and made pretty good friends with suburban cops.

But even this era of 30 years ago was beginning to experience the loss of small liberties. Today, we've lost more, and we're continuing to loose them at an amazing pace.

But instead of posting an alarmist essay on the evils of this trend, I wonder, do we really deserve liberty?

Look at our culture and what we hold dear. Most of us (the general public) are more concerned about who's winning American Idol or Survivor, than we are about the human rights issues in parts of the world. In today's news, the questionable events surrounding a lost 15-year old girl supplant potentially catastrophic global developments. Our collective cultural minds seem so intent on the contemplation of navels that we cannot simply look up.

There used to be a time when the nightly network news mattered. Esteemed, grandfatherly anchors brought the world into our living-rooms and we cared. While vietnam divided us, it do so with intelligence and dignity compared to the slacker anarchy-loving protesters of today's era holding protests simply because they can.

Even here, where some of us attempt to discuss the influences and factors that have brought about our moment in history, we find an overwhelming increase in the need for posturing, ego, and slacker anarchy-loving children disrupting discussion simply because they can.

As a culture, we've given up. Liberty is an antiquated concept many of us cannot fathom, because, amazingly enough, most of us have never really experienced it.

So my dear friends, I have two questions for the forum:

1- Do we deserve liberty?

2- Is sustained liberty even possible?

a very very good question there William.

I think there is a fine balance between Liberty and Law. We should all have the right to do as we wish within reason and many of us have the conscience to live our lives without intentionally causing harm to others. The law should serve as a guideline of the general consensus on behaviour and help protect many of our liberties. I feel strongly that freedom of thought and freedom of speech are essential, but freedom of action is not always desirable, for example where it may cause great harm to life or public property.

As to whether liberty is sustainable. I'm starting to wonder if it goes in cycles. Liberty is appreciated most when it has been fought for. For example the right to vote - more people probably voted soon after they were given the option of doing so than now, when that right is taken for granted. Perhaps we almost need periods of oppression and less liberty to make us appreciate freedom when we have it.

Good question William.
I think it can be summed up in one line .. the world of today is not what it was back then ...

Technology, Media, declning familiy influences, increasing single parent families, increasing population and changing social mores. etc, have all worked to create a society quite different from 30 years ago.

Also the short attention spans of people gained from TV, and the cults of materialism and "me-dom" have make a people whom our grandparents would be unfamilier with.

You boil frogs by putting them live into cold water and slowly turning up the heat, thats has happened to this generation, they don't notice the decline in liberty and freedoms, beacuse its nice and slow, incidious and in the background.

Each 3rd generation has to earn their liberty, the people of today, or their kids, will have to fight for it again or accept its loss (if they notice it) or learn to love the police state.



[Edited on 16-3-2003 by Netchicken]

[Edited on 16-3-2003 by Netchicken]

Was it Plato or Socrates or someone who bemoaned the youth of today over a thousand years ago?

I think not only has the world changed, but the perception of each generation changes as it grows up and sees the next one coming into it's own. I am so glad that I am not a teenager in today's climate, there is suddenly so much more anxiety in the world (the cold war which existed in my teenage years can not compare with the situation now), and also a vast amount of information to take in and make sense of.

Yes we deserve liberty, and yes it can be sustained.

I also grew up in a time where as a kid, we did what we wanted, knew if it was wrong, and paid a price for being stupid kids.

Today, there is this zero tolerance policy, where when you are stupid, as kids all are, the punishments are the most severe. no middle ground or learning curve.

The liberty of youth has been stolen, and we as adults have stood by and let it happen. Now the Government is chipping away more it seems everyday at all our liberties and freedoms.

Our Kids deserve to be kids, make mistakes, get the kind of punishments we got, and go on to be productive , respectful citizens. But I fear, the unbending way of justice now, is going to create at some point a pot of uncontroled fury, which will erupt in the name of freedom and liberty, just as it did centurys ago.

So much for my essay on my thoughts.

Thank you for such a refreshing line of thought

Sustaining it at this point will take some work by all of us, but until we start, alas it shall keep trying to fade away

Those who fight for liberty deserve liberty.

Morality is what allows Freedom. (SO DAMN YOU LIBERAL POT-HEAD HIPPIES)

And the Free must remember those who Freed them...

So in the end.

Those who deserve liberties, are those who are responsible.

So yes I can say some Americans deserve liberty, but should they lose it because the majority is irresponsible? No, but hey what are civil wars for? I don't think we're THAT far yet though

Do we deserve liberty? Interesting question.
Why would we deserve it? Do you deserve liberty in New York because over two hundred years ago your forefathers fought to gain it? Today people are screaming they have a right to this and a right to that, and they have no clue what a right is or where it comes from, but everything they want, they believe they have a right to it.

Rights come attached to something else, and the is a word most do not see applying to them - responsibility. They see no responsibility to their families in the sense that yours and my father knew it, no responsibilities to their neighbors, community or nation. The social pressures and discipline that maintained our society and culture has been deemed to mean-spirited, so now our culture is unravelling.

Liberty? Nobody "deserves" liberty unless they are willing to take responsibility to secure it, and that has to be done by each generation, and each generation has the obligation to teach the next what is expected of them. That ball was dropped in the 60's, the chain was broken and a horrible course was set.

Human history indicates that when this happens, cultures rarely pull back from the brink but fall into total decay and collapse.

Or maybe I'm just a little pessimistic right now.

What is your opinion, William, is liberty owed to you, or do you believe it is up to you? Do you agree with your founding fathers that the blood of patriots and tyrants is the fertilizer of liberty and is necessary for it to flourish?

The more laws, the less freedom.


We used to have 10 commands (with these we were free to do what we wan't, except for the things we wouldn't like to be done to ourselves, now we have 32473737939874 stupid silly funny laws.... We aren't getting better because of it!

Why doesn't bush mention the 10 commands when he's talking about god...? He's violating them constantly..........


We are having laws to let us do what God didn't want us to. Is he who is making laws taking the Lords name in vain?

Originally posted by Hammerite
Morality is what allows Freedom. (SO DAMN YOU LIBERAL POT-HEAD HIPPIES)

Masonite, you're wrong.

True liberty is a collaborative state. Liberty is gained, offered, accepted and maintained. We're not maintaining Liberty because too many people like you have difficulty tolerating alternate opinions.

Java, the decay and collapse of the American states has been predicted quite often. Ten years ago, according to most learned pundits, we were on our way out, being replaced by Japan. But that decay was economic, our upcoming real decay will be the slow, steady erosion of the awareness of what Liberty and Freedom mean.

History has shown us what it takes to gain Liberty. It's hard, requires sacrifice, but the reward is exceptional.

History has also shown us what it means to offer Liberty to those who either don't have it, or inherit it from previous generations. We know that it is something to cherish.

And we've seen the results of accepting Liberty. It can transform entire cultures.

But we have limited to no experience on what it takes to maintain Liberty. We know the concept of Liberty is elusive, and perhaps even foreign to those who take it for granted and use it as a word to describe what they can do, instead of a word to describe a lack of control or restriction.

No, I don't believe we deserve it. We're no longer maintaining it, and we've forgotten how to offer it.

I got to love this
"Most of us (the general public) are more concerned about who's winning American Idol or Survivor, than we are about the human rights issues in parts of the world. In today's news, the questionable events surrounding a lost 15-year old girl supplant potentially catastrophic global developments."

This, is the product of deliberate dumbing down, as you should know.

Wisdom explained the liberty issue very well a long time ago.
"Rationale:
'Well, if they are going to act like animals, then they deserve to be treated like animals.'
Rationale #2:
'Well, if they allow themselves to be treated like animals, then they are animals.'
Reality:
'Societies have been structured like farms that produce for the elite, we are their livestock, it has been that way since the development of society, and is that way now. It has been done intentionally by the same process used to create any of the domesticated animals. Provide comfort, protection and a routine so that the cow can't imagine life outside the fences and has had any ability to survive outside of the barnyard removed. Then we do become, in essence, stupid cows, dependant upon the parasites that feed off of our product...the elite who produce nothing.'
"

I'm not convinced our loss of Liberty awareness is the result of a dumbing down. It's too easy to go down that road.

And here the thread evolves to questions of a deep conspiracy as I hoped it would.

The conspiracy subculture's ease of blaming some unknowable secret societies with grand plots to control the world, I believe is more a product of the problem, and not the problem itself.

Yes, there are groups attempting to maintain secrecy and attempting to manipulate world affairs to their advantage. However, I'm becoming less and less convinced of their ability to be effectual, and have been for the past 20 years.

It's human nature to look outside ourselves for the cause of our woes. We're generally unable to internalize and see fault within ourselves. Therefore, as we witness Liberties lost, we assume the cause must be something other than the simple explanation, our complacency. If you're able to detach yourself from the concepts of global domination conspiracy theories, and examine the real reasons for lost Liberties, you come face to face with a horrible realization, we're letting it happen.

Is it the results of the illuminate that farmers cannot fill their wetlands to create productive land? No.

Is the Skull & Bones halting construction on private property when endangered species are discovered? No.

Are dark soldiers of the UN halting American citizens from popping firecrackers to celebrate Liberty? No.

We are letting it happen. We are the conspiracy of laziness. We are the hapless generation that allowed Liberty to be the forgotten verb, which is now the noun used to describe a sailor's time off.

I agree with you William that much of this is probably down to our own actions, but is it laziness or is there an element of fear there too?

Everytime we watch the news or read an article there seems to be more and more in this world to be frightened of. The conspiracy angle means that not only are we all scared, we're not entirely sure who or what we are scared of. We see enemies in things we don't understand or have enough knowledge of.

Originally posted by William

The conspiracy subculture's ease of blaming some unknowable secret societies with grand plots to control the world...

But you see, societies don't plot to control the planet, they already do control it and they always did. People are simply unaware of it.

What has changed for the last 1000 years? We no longer have slaves and masters? Wrong, working for wages became the modern equivalent of slavery.

Nothing changed. One day America obtained few special liberties. One day it will loose them all.

Yes, many did predict that we would be beaten by the Japanese a few years ago, William. That was a logical assumption to them based upon the facts as they saw them. The facts that they did not pay attention to were facts concerning Japan, not us. This does not change our moral/cultural plight, and the inevitable downfall.

We are as divided as our two-party politics. One party has been taken over by those who want only to destroy what the founding fathers, with the help of Divine assistance, created, and the other party makes sounds that they want to preserve it but that sound is predominantly lip service.

It won't have to be one nation in particular that causes us to be passe, but the rest of the world in general, as we bring ourselves down.

I believe we deserve liberty. We all have to make choices everyday. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. You don't have to live by the rules of society. You can be a leader of a cult or a memeber in a militia org. You can be a stand up citizen. The reality is that there are consequences to every action, and laws are there to govern the actions.

We shouldn't say we don't deserve liberty because folk choose American Idol over Primetime Live. That's a personal choice. People allow themselves to be dumbed-down. They don't wanna care. Even if it's a plot or conspiracy; folk have become active participants in it. At the end of the day in this country you are as free as you allow yourself to be, and that's more than we can say for other folk. Your choices create your level of liberty.

We all deserve liberty some just aren't smart enough to realize they have it.

Originally posted by SaphroniaYou don't have to live by the rules of society.

Consensual Anarchy? It may sound good to merely have everyone go by the basic pholosophy of "live & let live" or "your freedom ends where my nose begins" until a problem or issue comes up, then a group of concerned people temporarily gather to solve the problem then go back to being normal citizens again...But who has the organizational skills to pull it off & make it work?

How could we keep charismatic individuals from convincing the group that they should keep their limited authority permanently? If we were to allow that to happen, we'll just wind up in a worse mess than Consensual Anarchy would've solved in the first place.


[Edited on 18-3-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]

Laws, governments, societies - these things do not inhibit freedom. All they do is establish consequences for certain actions. Anarchy is not the answer, just as democracy or dictatorships aren't the answer. You alone, sitting at home or at work staring at a computer monitor, are the only person who can decide if you are free or not.

Laziness and fear figure in to this but only if you let them. Maintaining your personal freedom is much harder and at times can seem less rewarding than being lazy and entertained.

It's all about comfort. People look to government and society to make their lives as secure and safe and especially as comfortable as possible.

People let their freedoms slide away because they are afraid. Afraid to not live a long, comfortable life with all the wonderful convinences which modern technology and society has to offer. Better to be comfortable and entertained than go in search of true happiness in whatever form it appears for you.

Laws cannot stop freedom, but they can stop people from being free. Mindless entertainment and false hopes of wealth and success cannot stop freedom, but they can stop action.

Because the truth is, most people will let their leaders do anything they want with 'personal liberty' so long as the leaders in return keep them comfortable. (read - give them 300 tv channels, a decent job that pays for the house, the kids, the car, the vacation, etc.)

One day you may have to choose between true happiness or sedated comfort and when that day comes will you act freely or be lead by the neck?

True freedom exists in your mind, and as such can exist in the most brutal totalitarian government. It all depends on whether you are afraid to face the consequences. Do you want a long, mindless, semicomfortable life or are you willling to voice dissent? to fight for a cause? to be imprisoned for a cause? to die for a cause?

If not, don't complain about losing your freedom... you gave it away.

Originally posted by quango
Laws, governments, societies - these things do not inhibit freedom. All they do is establish consequences for certain actions.

I never said that anarchy was "the answer"...But you've also missed the point that the laws of physics & life in general imposes it's own consequences on a person's actions. Law is *supposed* to promote justice between people, but the current law structure is too large & unwieldy to do so...What is needed is not anarchy, but a serious down-sizing of what already exists. The government is too big & they even place themselves above the laws that they create for everyone else...The law structure is too large & complex for *anyone* to understand all of it. Anarchy no, but "simplification" wouldn't hurt anyone...Except those who've made their very existance *depend* on the complexities that they can't even fully embrace.

Mmmmkay...

What IS liberty, guys?

I bet each of you define it differently. I'd bet that we couldn't find a consensus among the board members (as an example, some people think you have greater liberty if you have lots of guns. I happen to think that people with lots of guns tend to go around shooting at things when they get mad and that restricts the liberty of the rest of us.)

I remember the Civil Rights era (yes, I'm one of those horrid hippies.) I remember when a lot of us didn't have the freedom we enjoy today.

And yet, there are a lot of people moaning for the return to those days; days of hidden violence, days of the iron fist that hammered any non-male, non-white, non-middle-class-or-better person into little corners. Does your concept of liberty mean destroying the civil liberties that we all fought to gain back in the 1950's and 1960's.

Here's my take on it: Our liberty is being stolen by the Culture of Fear. Most of you live in cities that are far safer than they were 50 years ago (or 80 years ago, when the Mafia and gang warfare ruled a lot of cities) -- what you live in is heavenly peace compared to the people in Israel or Palestine or sub-Saharan Africa or a lot of other places. But we don't celebrate it because the FearMongers make our land out to be a place of hidden monsters more fearful than starvation or plague or racial wars or cultural wars. To listen to Americans talk, you'd think that our streets were more dangerous than the Gaza Strip.

Fear makes us attack others. Fear makes us hide. Fear makes us so anxious that we can't tell a real threat from a fake threat.

If our liberty is destroyed, it will come not from great faceless conspiracies but from fear.

...and maybe from John Ashcroft and Bush, too, who justify their actions with heavy doses of Fear.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

I never said that anarchy was "the answer"

I know... I used it as an exaple to say that government or the lack of a government doesn't have to effect a person's freedom.

But you've also missed the point that the laws of physics & life in general imposes it's own consequences on a person's actions.

Can you explain this further? Are you refering to physical impossibilites? Mankind can only travel so fast and lift so much, etc? That is an intresting threat to freedom I wasn't thinking of.

Law is *supposed* to promote justice between people, but the current law structure is too large & unwieldy to do so...What is needed is not anarchy, but a serious down-sizing of what already exists. The government is too big & they even place themselves above the laws that they create for everyone else...The law structure is too large & complex for *anyone* to understand all of it. Anarchy no, but "simplification" wouldn't hurt anyone...

I agree that the function of law is to create justice.
I also agree that the system is too big and that simplification and not anarchy is the answer. But how?

I'll be honest and say I have no idea how any process of simplification which I think you're refering to could ever be started. People supposedly have the power, but the people have NO power. Unless getting to choose between candidates the system itself is nice enough to put forward for us, is power.

The 'system' can also convienently suppress grassroots movements by controlling what the majority of citizens hears, sees, thinks and feels about any such movement.

Except those who've made their very existance *depend* on the complexities that they can't even fully embrace.

You mean lawyers?