Quran burning on again? Pastor says maybe

Originally posted by gegel
Jesus said to turn the cheek but not for evil. Islam is a religion that brings the worst on people that are crazy (not all are carzy let's be clear, but the ones that are, use that religion as a justification to kill and torture). Islam religios leaders talk about peace but are unable to respect feelings of people who lost loved ones on 9-11 in the name of "we have the right to build a mosuqe". If they cannot even be sensitive about that, how can we expect that they respect western societies that stand for all they don't. Look at how they treat their women. How they stone people to death just because they kiss in public, how they cut woman's body parts when they are children in the name of their believes. Shame on those believes. All religions have things to improve but Islam has 10 fold what othrs have. It is a dangerous philosopy that I hope leaders change and clarify for the crazies that are to short of view to understand. Many, many burn bibles, flags, kill people but if someone talks about burning their book, God forgive us. That is worst that stonning people to death. I yet have to see a muslim condemnin such stones in public. They feel untouchable and frankly we have made them untouchable arguing human rights. They are the ones that are stepping on the rights of all "infidels" or non muslims. God, how people can be so blind just because they are affraid to be tagged as biggots. One thing is to be a biggot, another is to call evil where evil ls and stand for what is good and against what is bad. I absolutely have no problem with arabs. Race is not the issue, I like people of all races. I have a problem with muslim philosophy regardless of the race of the person that follows it. I hope they learn to respect women's rights, childre'n's rights, and non-muslims' rights. One thing is to love God and other is to harm others in the name of God. A disproportionate percentage of followers mis-understand the teachings. Why leaders don't clarify for them? why they don't condemn their actions more strongly. When I see a muslim in TV is always talking about how good and peaceful is islam. Their public relations is more important than condemning evil. Stop being more worried for your image and more for who in reality has brought your image to where it is today. Tell the leader in NY to do the right thing in the name of peace and good neighbor. For those who need proof of the real thoughts of the Imam in NY, please watch CNN (3 days ago) during Larry King Live, hosted by C. Coury. He said and I paraphrase "...what would Jeses do? Jesus said love your enemy!!!" and then he corrected "we are not your enemy" he considers himself our enemy and he messed up when he mentioned that and he knew. Not sure why nobody pointed out. The real feelings vs the talk of the Imam are two different things. I know there are many many many many real and good people who happen to be muslims but where are their voices? I waht to hear their voices. They need to be heard.

I think you are a little confused as to what Jesus taught.
Mat 5:43-47 You have heard that it was said you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be the sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

The Bible also says this which could be applied to this situation: Wisdom is beter than weapons of war Ecc 9:18

Rom 12:17 Return no evil for evil ...live at peace with everyone.

Thank-you.

reply to post by jfj123

Yes they are. The FBI showed up at the pastor's house to "talk" to him. Why would they do that? I'll tell you..in an attempt to silence him and prevent him from exercising his CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. If he can't express his CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS because of terrorist threat, the said terrorists are indeed dictating law and policy in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Why would the FBI show up at a Pastor's Church which is actually half funrniture workshop and half church, that also manufactures, mugs and t-shirts that proclaim Islam is the Devil?

Why would they do that when the congregants of his last church kicked him out of it?

Kicked him out of it for inciting an atmosphere of nothing but fear and hate, all in the name of God?

Kicked him out of it, because his number one focus besides that was asking his congregants for more and more, and more money?

Has it ever occured to you this man who has been living in America for only a year, who had been in Germany from 1980, to 2009 because like Hitler he was sure the German people, had some great role to play in the destiny of the future of mankind, like Hitler is just a nut, who wants to make a name for himself by getting insecure people, to blame their own failures and inabilities and limitations in life on others?

By making them feel first like they are failing, failing to stop Islam, failing to dominate the world with their own nationality, failing to dominate the world with their own religion, and that some other group in this case Islam is doing a much better job at it.

Has it ever occured to you that unlike half of ATS that the FBI recognizes a Nazi, and a Bigot for exactly what he is?

Or is that what you are really complaining about? That Nazis and bigots aren't elevated to hero status?

Has it ever occured to you, that the FBI visited him to let him know that being a little small minded hate filled man that preaches nothing but hate, and does it simply for money, and attention, can end up not working out well for you, when you aspire and conspire to try to profit off of deliberately insulting 1/3 of the world's population.

Want to know who else struggled to persecute an entire religion and everyone who practiced it?

Hitler, he even wrote a book, called mein camp, my struggle, to chronicle the early beginnings of that strugle.

The FBI has been dedicated to tracking down Nazis since the 1940s. Sounds to me like they found one!

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by jfj123

 

Of course we CAN burn a Quran, it's a constitutional freedom that we have, the pastor had every RIGHT to burn the Quran, but is that the message that we as Americans want to portray to the world?

You mean the message that we will not bow to terrorist threat? YES!
Look it doesn't matter what we do with regards to these terrorists. The book burning is an excuse. Next week they'll have another excuse to hate us. Maybe it will be the color of YOUR hair...who knows. But here's the reality-Those terrorists will hate us no matter what we do because ultimately they don't want us to leave them alone, they want us to NOT EXIST. Are you willing to do that to make them happy? I'm not !

Shouldn't we be better people?

It's not about being "better people" it's about not allowing terrorists to control us through fear until we're willing to give up all our rights to them.

Or should we stoop to a moronic level and prove to the world that Americans are bigoted idiots?

Again, you seem to be missing the point of the big picture.
OK Matt and Trey from Southpark couldn't even draw mohamad without getting death threats....so then they drew mohamad in a bear suite and STILL received death threats. They hate Americans because we are not muslims. They hate America because we refuse sharia law. They hate America because we are involved in the middle east. They hate America because we love FREEDOM. That being said, think about it for a minute.....Do you honestly think that they actually hate us any more for burning a quran or more importantly do you think they would hate us any less if we didn't?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Why would the FBI show up at a Pastor's Church which is actually half funrniture workshop and half church, that also manufactures, mugs and t-shirts that proclaim Islam is the Devil?

I think it's pretty obvious don't you? To try and "convince" him not to burn any quran so the terrorists will be placated.

Why would they do that when the congregants of his last church kicked him out of it?

Hey don't get me wrong. I think this pastor is a complete moron. I liken him to the KKK or the Westburo church idiots.

Kicked him out of it for inciting an atmosphere of nothing but fear and hate, all in the name of God?

Welcome to religion !

Kicked him out of it, because his number one focus besides that was asking his congregants for more and more, and more money?

Again, welcome to religion !

Has it ever occured to you this man who has been living in America for only a year, who had been in Germany from 1980, to 2009 because like Hitler he was sure the German people, had some great role to play in the destiny of the future of mankind, like Hitler is just a nut, who wants to make a name for himself by getting insecure people, to blame their own failures and inabilities and limitations in life on others?

Comparing him to a man that ACTUALLY exterminated millions of innocent people is absurd. Burning a quran is LEGAL in the United States of America while killing 6 million jews is NOT.

Has it ever occured to you that unlike half of ATS that the FBI recognizes a Nazi, and a Bigot for exactly what he is?

The FBI can't hold that against him in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. He has the right to be a stupid, arrogant, bigot. You can't pick and choose who gets CONSTITUTIONAL rights. Either everyone does or nobody does.

Or is that what you are really complaining about? That Nazis and bigots aren't elevated to hero status?

This is one of the most stupid comments I've seen here on ATS. If you actually read my posts you know that I am defending his RIGHTS and not defending him personally. Personally, I feel that book burning in general is repugnant (I've probably mentioned this a dozen times) but what I find even more repugnant is allowing terrorists to control the actions of THE UNITED STATES government and it's citizens due to threat of violence.

Has it ever occured to you, that the FBI visited him to let him know that being a little small minded hate filled man that preaches nothing but hate, and does it simply for money, and attention, can end up not working out well for you, when you aspire and conspire to try to profit off of deliberately insulting 1/3 of the world's population.

Has it ever occured to you that once it's ok for the FBI to show up at his door for that, it's ok for them to show up at ANYONE'S door for ANYTHING?

The FBI has been dedicated to tracking down Nazis since the 1940s. Sounds to me like they found one!

So what law(s) did this idiot pastor break in The United States, in regard to this situation? Please be specific including law and code. I anxiously await your reply.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Wow, for a second or two there, I think some of whatukno debate tactics floated over into your comment.

Getting rattled?

reply to post by whatukno


I did back it up, you were too lazy to read the proof...two words, fiber.....decaf. Both may help your disposition, and make you generally more fun to debate with.


Edited to add, I just realized maybe you didn't know how to use the search function, and in my quest to be helpful and all here ya go....again, fiber and decaf, you'll need them before reading it.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by adifferentbreed

I did back it up, you were too lazy to read the proof...two words, fiber.....decaf. Both may help your disposition, and make you generally more fun to debate with.

Actually there were only two links provided by you, one was a link to one of your threads, the other link was to yahoo news.

You have provided absolutely zero proof to back up either of your assertions. You are just being speculative and actually more so you are fear-mongering. You have not backed up any of your assertions with any facts, but have given unsubstantiated opinion on the subject which does not cut the mustard.

Remember, each and every post you make has a button underneath called (thread), so we can see exactly what you wrote individually. So far you have posted 8 posts in this thread, only one of which had any external link to it, it was This Post and that post linked to another post of yours, here which only linked to this Yahoo news article. Nowhere in that article did it say anything about the POTUS appearing weak or anything about this man's civil rights being violated.

You are just making assumptions, you aren't providing ANY facts whatsoever. And for some odd reason you want ME to prove your point? Why should I prove your point? You won't bother doing it obviously, you just want to provide speculation and opinion without any substantiation whatsoever. You want to call ME a troll? You made the absurd assumptions that the POTUS appears weak on the international community, and the ridiculous notion that this man's civil rights were violated in any way shape or form simply by the fact that he was talked to by the FBI.

The bottom line is, if you want to debate me on a subject like this, bring your facts to bear and be prepared to back them up, otherwise you just look like a fool.

reply to post by jfj123

You mean the message that we will not bow to terrorist threat? YES!

I am still not convinced that burning the Koran is the best method of protesting against radical Islam. I think that more is a slight against the religion as a whole and not the extremists that we are actually against.

Look it doesn't matter what we do with regards to these terrorists. The book burning is an excuse. Next week they'll have another excuse to hate us. Maybe it will be the color of YOUR hair...who knows. But here's the reality-Those terrorists will hate us no matter what we do because ultimately they don't want us to leave them alone, they want us to NOT EXIST. Are you willing to do that to make them happy? I'm not !

You are right in a sense, there is nothing we can do that cannot be portrayed to extremists as a benefit to their cause, that is the job of propagandists. However, we should not alienate everyone in a religion because of the extremists. Burning the Koran is an insult to every Muslim, when we really want to target the extremists.

The Islamic extremists don't want us to exist, just as radical Christians don't want anyone but Christians to exist. But you can't blame all Muslims for the acts of idiots, just like you can't blame all Christians for the acts of the Westboro Baptist Church or the Army of God. It doesn't equate.

It's not about being "better people" it's about not allowing terrorists to control us through fear until we're willing to give up all our rights to them.

But is it better to instead give up all our rights to the fear-mongers in this country instead? They want to paint an entire religion with the same brush, when it's not true. They want to destroy the first amendment rights of moderate Muslims because of the fear of the actions of the radicals. Is that any better?

Again, you seem to be missing the point of the big picture.
OK Matt and Trey from Southpark couldn't even draw mohamad without getting death threats....so then they drew mohamad in a bear suite and STILL received death threats. They hate Americans because we are not muslims. They hate America because we refuse sharia law. They hate America because we are involved in the middle east. They hate America because we love FREEDOM. That being said, think about it for a minute.....Do you honestly think that they actually hate us any more for burning a quran or more importantly do you think they would hate us any less if we didn't?

No, they just hate America. I agree that Matt and Trey should not have been forced to draw Mohamed with a censored bar or bear costume because of these people. I don't honestly know why they just didn't say you, and put Mohamed out there. I say if your point of view can't handle satire, your point of view isn't worth much to begin with. This is just my opinion on the subject.

Sure the radical Islamic people would freak, but so what? Why should we fear? You are right, they are going to hate us no matter what. So, instead of being afraid of what they will do, just do what we do best and be free.

But, when we protest against radical Islam, shouldn't we be the better people and actually protest against RADICAL ISLAM and not Islam as a religion as a whole? Why should we alienate the people that deserve our first amendment right to freedom of religion by protesting against the people who just hate for hate's sake?

Do you see the balance that should be achieved?

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Wow, for a second or two there, I think some of whatukno debate tactics floated over into your comment.

Getting rattled?

Nothing like someone abusing the Terms of Service and attempting to go off topic to bait two members with one post.

I think a lot of members are disturbed and disgusted with the bigotry and near hysteria that ends up in some of these posts.

Now on topic. The NSA has for decades recorded every phone call made in the world. No matter who calls who, about what, no matter where, for what, the calls are recorded at a massive NSA facility that then have computers listen to them as they are being recorded for certain key words in the conversation.

If enough key words are present, it gets routed to a more sophisticated computer to annalyse which if it determines enough significant key words are present in a certain context, will forward it to another more sophisticated one, and so on, repeating that process and then eventually flagging calls with enough key words in certain context for human review.

Since September 11, 2001, the 13 different Intelligence Agencies have begun sharing the information they garner with Homeland Security that determines if it should say be acted upon by the FBI.

This is because technically the Intelligence Agencies are not allowed to be involved in Law Enforcement inside the United States.

It is almost a certainty that a number of people throughout the world immediately began talking about killing Terry Jones either before or after his Burn a Quran Day event.

The vast majority of those people would have been blowing off steam like many of the posters here on ATS who wouldn't know how to recognize a conspiracy if Deep Throat walked up to them in a dark parking garage, and love to clog up and infect the site with a lot of left/right politics and religion.

Yet there is an excellent chance some of those people engaged in that 'chatter' around the globe, where doing so from 'known' numbers and 'known' locations that would make their threats much more note worthy. What is deemed to then be 'actionable' intelligence.

Because some of these people engaged in such 'chatter' are deemed to be 'credible' threats when they do talk about carrying out violent acts this would have certainly raised alarms.

The FBI then would have had a duty to inform Terry Jones that there were some credible threats being made against his life, by people the believe are more than just the blow hards here on ATS who imagine they are saving the world with colorful graphics and animated GIFS.

This would have triggered the FBI visiting Jones. In addition if Jones himself reported threatening phone calls to the local police if any of them came from out of state, that would have triggered the FBI responding as well by opening a file. Finally if he recieved any mail, threats through the mail always then fall to Federal Law Enforcement, the FBI.

Now none of us are privy to what the FBI knows in relation to this case, or what it discussed with Jones.

I think it's rediculous though to speculate that the FBI was simply trying to intimidate Jones.

I think it's also rediculous to ignore the fact that leaders of every religious group, and almost every concerned nation, as well as commanders in our own military denounced the proposed event as the hateful and offensive thing it was.

Jones him self will probably remain at an undisclosed location for a fair time to come having chosen to single himself out as a bigot and a xenophobe, he will fade back into obscurity as will the many agenda driven posters on ATS some of whom have had accounts since 2004 but only rarely become active on them, over issues like this to try to incite and enflame when something similiar to this domintes the news.

I however will still be here on ATS as unflappable as ever, and will likely meet whatukno in the Debate Tournament in the Debate Forum that we have both signed up for.

The two of us differ on some important issues, we also agree on some important issues, one of those being that here on ATS we debate and attack the issues, not the members.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Well, as long as neither of you are seeded on my side of the tiers. Regarding tourney.

Oh yeah, I know all about the NSA recording systems. That is why the upswing in the use of cell phones.

Many do not even know that wire tapping laws do not even apply to those. Those are covered under the FCC guidelines. That is why the use of satellite phones were nipped in the bud. Too easy to make those secure. Being that they can be digitally encoded. Plus the line of sight necessary.

I think it was the AT&T nexus room that I read about 20 years ago, plus the cell phone trap on voice recognition system talked about in the Clancy novels that told me all about that. They are always 20 years ahead at least of what we imagine.

For the past 20 years I just assumed that every phone call or any other telecommunication system has been monitored.

I use to work for Cray Supercomputers. Use to mess around with the the systems they had back then. One of my friends worked in the testing and a shakedown division. They would load up the software and attempt to find any faults in any of the wiring components plus the circuit boards. Boy some of the software I seen running on those systems was amazing, even in today's standards.

I am sure there are still some of the XMP, YMP, Cray 2 or other of the systems still running full time in the basement at Langley and other areas. Back then, those systems were not even allowed to be sold to many of our friendly country's governments.

What you can imagine, they can do. I wish I could have one of those Cray 2's. The main component was set up with benches around it. Heck, if they wanted to they could use it as a seating area. The cooling was done by a flowing freon type material and you could see it flowing through clear areas in the tower component. The system looked space age cool with a old type usefulness to it.

Oh the 3d creations I could create with a system like that.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


There is little that goes on in the world that isn't monitored and recorded by some form of electronic surveillance.

In part that's what makes Osama Bin Laden never being caught a very note worthy matter of speculative conspiracy discussion. It would basically be impossible to stay off the grid for going on ten years.

There were some semi-credible reports in the Japanese and Indian Press back in 2003 he was killed and burried in a Tora Bora Cave purposefully collapsed on him by special forces to hide his body and his death forever.

If he is alive though, it's nearly an impossiblity with the level of sophistication electronic monitoring has achieved that no one knows where he is.

I still contend Islam and even radical Islam does not pose near the threat that the permanent all intrusive security apparatus that has been instilled to fight the war on terror is.

By dictionary definition Terry Jones himself is a terrorist, since the definition is committing acts aimed to politically manipulate people through fear. Those acts don't have to be violent or lead to death, just be politically motivated to use fear to manipulate people's reactions.

Jones and his supporters will counter their provocative acts were aimed at showing the world and Islam they are not afraid, yet the truth is I don't need to do anything to proove I am not afraid of something. I just simply have to not be afraid.

The media itself then becomes complicit in these acts of terrorism by either encouraging us to be instigators our selves and participants in actions that are politically motivated to cause fear, in this case that fear being for Muslims in America that they are being singled out in prejudicial ways and relugated to second class citizen status by a majority seeking to persecute them.

Thankfully that majority doesn't exist, but there are a whole lot of people like Jones actively trying to manipulate appearances so it does seem like the majority are prejudicial against Muslims and consider them second class citizens with that hope that people will respond to peer pressure and like lemmings fall in line and go along with that kind of thinking and develop the same attitudes.

All of which requires making imaginary fears as real as possible which is actually be definition terrorism.

So while even here on ATS we have a whole cadre of Jones supporters, and anti-Islamists, who claim to be against and fighting terrorists, they themselves are the terrorists that I myself am fighting against.

The great news is I neither fear them or the things and groups they fear.

The only thing it takes to defeat a terrorist act is not to react to it with fear. When you do that, then the people who incited it are setting the agenda.

Personally I don't want a religious con man, and grifter with a fake southern accent who spent the last 30 years of his life up until a year ago setting the agenda, that causes people to react and act through the fear he purposefully tries to create to get people to react and act through fear.

I can't imagine why anyone would want such a unsavory charachter that even the people in his own church in Cologne Germany ended up rejecting and expelling from their congregation he created, in the church he founded.

Unless of course they see it as a marraige of political convenience and their agenda is one that requires the use of fear, terrorism to achieve.

As usual the individual greatest enemy isn't hiding in a cave, isn't overseas, isn't dwelling in a mosque or a church or temple, or government building or corporate boardroom, but right in one's own mirror.

The conspiracy of fear.

That is why the government (illuminati, nwo, whatever) does not like religion. Or in better terms, spiritual people that believe in righteousness.

These type people cannot be swayed by fear.


I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Litany of Fear, Bene Gesserit Witches, Dune, Frank Herbert.


That is why I believe in the Golden Path, the Golden rule.

Originally posted by whatukno

You mean the message that we will not bow to terrorist threat? YES!

I am still not convinced that burning the Koran is the best method of protesting against radical Islam. I think that more is a slight against the religion as a whole and not the extremists that we are actually against.

Again, you are missing the point. An American citizen (a stupid one) is expressing his CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS and if he can't, then nobodies rights are safe. Why are you not getting this?

Look it doesn't matter what we do with regards to these terrorists. The book burning is an excuse. Next week they'll have another excuse to hate us. Maybe it will be the color of YOUR hair...who knows. But here's the reality-Those terrorists will hate us no matter what we do because ultimately they don't want us to leave them alone, they want us to NOT EXIST. Are you willing to do that to make them happy? I'm not !

You are right in a sense, there is nothing we can do that cannot be portrayed to extremists as a benefit to their cause, that is the job of propagandists. However, we should not alienate everyone in a religion because of the extremists. Burning the Koran is an insult to every Muslim, when we really want to target the extremists.

Burning the American flag is an insult to every American yet we have to suck it up, don't we? Of course I/we don't want to see moderate muslims offended by the book burning but sometimes expressing FREEDOM causes some hurt feelings. FREEDOM IS MESSY.

The Islamic extremists don't want us to exist, just as radical Christians don't want anyone but Christians to exist.

Although I'm sure there is a very small contingent of radical christians, there are millions upon millions of radical muslims. For the record, ANY radical that thinks everyone who doesn't believe as they do, should die, is a nutcase.

But you can't blame all Muslims for the acts of idiots,

I'm not.

just like you can't blame all Christians for the acts of the Westboro Baptist Church or the Army of God. It doesn't equate.

How many members of the westburo church are there? approximately 40?
How many members of al queda are there? millions world wide.

Again I'm not blaming all of anyone.

t's not about being "better people" it's about not allowing terrorists to control us through fear until we're willing to give up all our rights to them.

But is it better to instead give up all our rights to the fear-mongers in this country instead? They want to paint an entire religion with the same brush, when it's not true. They want to destroy the first amendment rights of moderate Muslims because of the fear of the actions of the radicals. Is that any better?

Who is doing this? Please cite example and detail.

Again, you seem to be missing the point of the big picture.
OK Matt and Trey from Southpark couldn't even draw mohamad without getting death threats....so then they drew mohamad in a bear suite and STILL received death threats. They hate Americans because we are not muslims. They hate America because we refuse sharia law. They hate America because we are involved in the middle east. They hate America because we love FREEDOM. That being said, think about it for a minute.....Do you honestly think that they actually hate us any more for burning a quran or more importantly do you think they would hate us any less if we didn't?

No, they just hate America. I agree that Matt and Trey should not have been forced to draw Mohamed with a censored bar or bear costume because of these people. I don't honestly know why they just didn't say

you, and put Mohamed out there.

Because the station execs were AFRAID of terrorist reprisal.

Sure the radical Islamic people would freak, but so what? Why should we fear? You are right, they are going to hate us no matter what. So, instead of being afraid of what they will do, just do what we do best and be free.

My point exactly. And if we bow to terrorist threat, how can we be free?

But, when we protest against radical Islam, shouldn't we be the better people and actually protest against RADICAL ISLAM and not Islam as a religion as a whole?

Just curious but how would you do that?

Why should we alienate the people that deserve our first amendment right to freedom of religion by protesting against the people who just hate for hate's sake?

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE.
FREEDOM means taking it in all it's forms. It means letting those with opposing and even repugnant views, to have their say. Even if it's Fred Phelps or the KKK. Because once you restrict their rights, we all loose. Do you get that?

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by jfj123

 

Of course we CAN burn a Quran, it's a constitutional freedom that we have, the pastor had every RIGHT to burn the Quran, but is that the message that we as Americans want to portray to the world?

You mean the message that we will not bow to terrorist threat? YES!
Look it doesn't matter what we do with regards to these terrorists. The book burning is an excuse. Next week they'll have another excuse to hate us. Maybe it will be the color of YOUR hair...who knows. But here's the reality-Those terrorists will hate us no matter what we do because ultimately they don't want us to leave them alone, they want us to NOT EXIST. Are you willing to do that to make them happy? I'm not !

Shouldn't we be better people?

It's not about being "better people" it's about not allowing terrorists to control us through fear until we're willing to give up all our rights to them.

Or should we stoop to a moronic level and prove to the world that Americans are bigoted idiots?

Again, you seem to be missing the point of the big picture.
OK Matt and Trey from Southpark couldn't even draw mohamad without getting death threats....so then they drew mohamad in a bear suite and STILL received death threats. They hate Americans because we are not muslims. They hate America because we refuse sharia law. They hate America because we are involved in the middle east. They hate America because we love FREEDOM. That being said, think about it for a minute.....Do you honestly think that they actually hate us any more for burning a quran or more importantly do you think they would hate us any less if we didn't?

First off...South Park is a CARTOON....man made entertainment. Sometimes, entertainment touches on reality...but MOST of the time, it is nothing more than what it is....

as for FREEDOM...FREEDOM without THOUGHT is chaos, and becomes that "enemy" which you fight against.

Burning a book, no matter what it is, will always be a "non-thinkers" way of showing power. Deny Ignorance, the "preacher" got his 10 minutes it's done and over with...the man was hateful and no servant of the Spirit...he still needs to learn...


~holly

reply to post by whatukno


Hmmmm, So now you can't read the link from Pat Buchanan....keep working at it, you'll get it.......just a thought, I don't know you, and damn sure don't work for you, in the end this is all speculative based upon each persons opinions at the end of the day....so do the leg work or not, it's up to you......I think Obama came out looking weak on the world tage, the msm helped it along and you have rep and dems selling out peoples rights to appease animals. Easy enough to follow.........off to the beach now, and then a BBQ later....have a great week coming up, remember....fiber and decaf.

Originally posted by Holly N.R.A.

First off...South Park is a CARTOON....man made entertainment.

SO ? Not sure where you're going with that????

as for FREEDOM...FREEDOM without THOUGHT is chaos, and becomes that "enemy" which you fight against.

So who controls our thoughts so we can have freedom? Who decides what is an appropriate type of freedom?

Burning a book, no matter what it is, will always be a "non-thinkers" way of showing power.

Again...SO ?

Deny Ignorance, the "preacher" got his 10 minutes it's done and over with...the man was hateful and no servant of the Spirit...he still needs to learn...

~holly

He was doing what he believed in. What's wrong with that?

reply to post by jfj123

Again, you are missing the point. An American citizen (a stupid one) is expressing his CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS and if he can't, then nobodies rights are safe. Why are you not getting this?

I didn't say he CAN'T I said he shouldn't. He is of course free to be a moron, apparently it's a contagious condition which is affecting many people including at least 3 in this very thread. I don't know why you don't get that, maybe selective reading I seriously don't know.

Burning the American flag is an insult to every American yet we have to suck it up, don't we? Of course I/we don't want to see moderate muslims offended by the book burning but sometimes expressing FREEDOM causes some hurt feelings. FREEDOM IS MESSY.

Freedom isn't messy, idiots are messy.

Although I'm sure there is a very small contingent of radical christians, there are millions upon millions of radical muslims. For the record, ANY radical that thinks everyone who doesn't believe as they do, should die, is a nutcase.

There are millions of Christians who believe that same way.

Who is doing this? Please cite example and detail.

Obviously you are blind and deaf, but I will vainly give you some examples.



Islam is not a religion, it is foreign law

Islam is not a religion: it's an inferiority complex.

I can go on.

Because the station execs were AFRAID of terrorist reprisal.

That's a stupid reason for not doing something. If you are too scared, don't play the game.

Just curious but how would you do that?

As I said before, you burn Bin Laden in effigy, that takes the religion out of the picture and shows that we are protesting radicals and terrorists only. But that must make too much sense to you. Because you believe that freedom is messy.

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE.
FREEDOM means taking it in all it's forms. It means letting those with opposing and even repugnant views, to have their say. Even if it's Fred Phelps or the KKK. Because once you restrict their rights, we all loose. Do you get that?

I do get that, I think however you don't fully understand that. I don't think that you understand it at all. I fear that you will never understand it, don't want to understand it and could care less as long as the only people to hae that freedom are the people YOU personally agree with.

I never said that we should restrict anyone's rights, I just think there is a smarter way of doing it. You claim that freedom is messy, and I contend that idiots are messy, freedom is free.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower

 

Wow, for a second or two there, I think some of whatukno debate tactics floated over into your comment.

Getting rattled?

You didn't conform to the rules! Speak in third person, add a video to help BUT do this only when it's allowed!
I guess it's all about timing and whom you are speaking to. As for the pastor, he didn't burn the Quran because there were too many people pressuring him not too. Personally, I'm glad he didn't burn the book but what I have noticed is people who are of influence or who imagine they are of influence will always try to interfere and thus causing those who are paying attention to thik twice before exercising their rights, due to fear of going against those who speak with imagined power.
Some can exercise their rights but some can not.
Thanks
sl

Originally posted by whatukno

I didn't say he CAN'T I said he shouldn't.

OK so why shouldn't he?

Although I'm sure there is a very small contingent of radical christians, there are millions upon millions of radical muslims. For the record, ANY radical that thinks everyone who doesn't believe as they do, should die, is a nutcase.

There are millions of Christians who believe that same way.

How many christians threatened to KILL ALL muslims? I'm not looking for an exact number, just a rough idea.

Because the station execs were AFRAID of terrorist reprisal.

That's a stupid reason for not doing something. If you are too scared, don't play the game.

But that is exactly why many people are trying to silence the idiot pastor.

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE.
FREEDOM means taking it in all it's forms. It means letting those with opposing and even repugnant views, to have their say. Even if it's Fred Phelps or the KKK. Because once you restrict their rights, we all loose. Do you get that?

I do get that, I think however you don't fully understand that.

HUH? You're telling me you understand and agree with me on this part, but I don't understand what you agree with that I wrote??? HUH ???? REALLY ????

and could care less as long as the only people to hae that freedom are the people YOU personally agree with.

When have I said this? I've mentioned that if people want to burn the flag, I support them even though I find that as VILE as muslims do with regards to the burning of a quran. You obviously aren't even reading my posts before shooting your mouth off.

I never said that we should restrict anyone's rights, I just think there is a smarter way of doing it. You claim that freedom is messy, and I contend that idiots are messy, freedom is free.

FREEDOM comes at a huge cost. I would venture to think that all those brave soldiers that have fought and died for our FREEDOM since day, would disagree with you that FREEDOM is free. As a matter of fact, I find this particular comment of yours to be incredibly insensitive and hateful to all those soldiers who gave their bodies and lives for that blanket of FREEDOM under which you sleep. But because of that FREEDOM, you get to make that absurd statement. Lucky you huh? You get to make a statement that is OFFENSIVE and INSENSITIVE and others will find inflammatory yet you can still make that statement....HUH ?!?!?!? WHAT A COUNTRY HUH ??????

reply to post by BingeBob


bring back south park. no truer words spoke.

reply to post by jfj123

OK so why shouldn't he?

While it's his right to do this stupid thing, people shouldn't alienate an entire religion because they don't like the actions of a few morons.

How many christians threatened to KILL ALL muslims? I'm not looking for an exact number, just a rough idea.

Millions, but that's just a guess. Sorry to not give you an exact number, but there are a LOT of bigots that call themselves Christians.

HUH? You're telling me you understand and agree with me on this part, but I don't understand what you agree with that I wrote??? HUH ???? REALLY ????

I know, it's too hard for you to understand, but you want to silence people's first amendment right to freedom of speech for speaking out against morons like this pastor. That is why I said that you don't understand it, I know you won't get it. But hey, I tried.

FREEDOM comes at a huge cost. I would venture to think that all those brave soldiers that have fought and died for our FREEDOM since day, would disagree with you that FREEDOM is free. As a matter of fact, I find this particular comment of yours to be incredibly insensitive and hateful to all those soldiers who gave their bodies and lives for that blanket of FREEDOM under which you sleep. But because of that FREEDOM, you get to make that absurd statement. Lucky you huh? You get to make a statement that is OFFENSIVE and INSENSITIVE and others will find inflammatory yet you can still make that statement....HUH ?!?!?!? WHAT A COUNTRY HUH ??????

Soldiers fight because their government tells them to fight. It's not about freedom at all. The war in Afghanistan or Iraq has/had nothing to do with our freedom here. Freedom can only come from the individual. No soldier in recent history has given his life for my freedom. No one can give you freedom, they can only take it away. You and you alone are the only person responsible for your freedom or lack thereof.

I know, difficult to understand. I don't expect you to. I respect soldiers for what they do because it's something I would never do, but they do not fight for my freedom because they cannot fight to give me something I already have.