I think that we are all in agreement here, despite the efforts to put all of us on the same page

As always, I appreciate your response... and the input of others.

I think that we all became a little sidetracked when we tried to impose our moral objectives upon the enemy, who obvioulsy possesses none.

To wit, TPM, I think that we have done exactly as you recommend in Afghanistan. Have you seen any of the Discovery Channel shows on the War on Terror? Man, our SpecOps guys are blending right in and doing EXACTLY as you have described. I think we are beginning to become wise to their ways.

ITS ALL IN YOU HEADS!!!

if YOU say terrorist attacks are wrong because they go against YOUR religion well thats just wrong!!!

YOU cannot judge ANOTHER country / peoples by YOUR standards because that is just wrong!!!

YOU have to look at the TERRORISTS point of view (yes they have one and yes they are human and not monsters) and not say: "the way the terrorists fight is wrong because my president says it is"

look at ALL sides of the equation...

get lots of information from many sourses (sources that are no one sided also)

THERE IS NO RIGHT / WRONG!!!

ITS ALL IN YOU HEADS!!!

The Israelis have screwed themselves a while ago.

They responded by stomping every Palestinian act into the ground. Now they are seen as Terrorists themselves.

This is a long term war. 10, 20 years. We have to remake the mindset, (win the hearst and minds.) There is no quick fix. But make no mistake, down and dirty is very appealing when you see innocents go down.

Where is the one who started this thread by the way?

This guy is starting to scare me.

well those are specops forces.

i'm talking in general for the military. specops can only do so much, they're highly specialized but because of the high standards required to become a part of specops they are few and far between. its the reuglar military which sticks out like a sore thumb that seems to be the main target and is also taking the worst beating.

with afghanistan it seems more about spec ops than regular miltary forces where as with iraq there is a larger regular military force because they're having to play security as the iraqis government continues to builds its on police and army.

the situations are different IMO but i see your point and i agree. specops are able to get down and dirty and play terrorist against the enemy. like the enemy they are trained to make IEDs and use whatever resources they can muster to fight their war. they are trained for survival which goes far beyondbasic military training. its just too bad there arent more of them.

but even the specops forces are hamstrung by the same rules as regular military and they still have a chain of command they have to answer to and they have a beuracracy to follow and its a burden. they are more successful though.

so does this mean we could be justified in using their tactics?

YOU cannot judge ANOTHER country / peoples by YOUR standards because that is just wrong

but you do this. why cant eveyone else? they do this as well. and if you htink they dont you're sadly mistaken, why do you think they're doing what they're doing? they think the western world is full of sinners and infidels. those who do not live thier way of life are judged to be inferior and they take religious text out of context and kill whoever isnt like them, thinks like them and acts like them because they JUDGE everyone.

so why cant we? goose and gander again...

Originally posted by they see ALL
THERE IS NO RIGHT / WRONG!!!

ITS ALL IN YOU HEADS!!!

Well, if you are saying there are two sides and two points of view...you are correct, but there is still right and wrong. We had some prisoners that we humiliated (maybe to get info or maybe not) and that was wrong. Hitler killed millions and that was wrong. Terrorist intentionally kill civilians and that is wrong. Many Africans were taken as slaves was wrong.

Get the idea. Sure, if you ask any of the other side...they were right. So by your logic, slavery was right, genocide on Jews was right, 9/11 was right, humiliating prisoners was right.

Originally posted by troublemagnet
so does this mean we could be justified in using their tactics?

essentially yes. since TSA seems to believe that winning is everything then why not? i view it as lowering ourselves to their level however the point is to win, not to play by the rules. they dont play by ANY rules and TSA seems to believe this is ok. (which is ok by me, its an opinion and he's entitled to it)

however as i asked before, if america adopted this win at all costs policy how everyone would feel. so far i've gotten a few responses, but not one from the author of this thread.

if the answer is anything but "that'd be ok by me" then you're being a hypocrite or at the least the owner of a double standard.

if anyone think terrorists are justified in their actions then why do they whine about american military embarassing and humiliating iraqis prisoners? since the ends justify the means for terrorists and some think thats ok why cant everyone else play by this concept? if we're going to have war lets have WAR!!!!

how do i do this???

i said that the terrorists ways is right because everything in war is right...

ALL peoples in ALL countries envolved in the war are targets...

the way i am is neutral: i dont care who lives / dies / why or how they die / who wins...

ALL aspects of war are NEUTRAL (everything in the war is "OK" because there is no right / wrong in the world only in a persons head)



[edit on 22-6-2004 by they see ALL]

i dont believe the terror tactics are right but i feel we are playing by some rules and the enemy isnt,not terribly sporting! so we are in this for the long haul and i feel its a war we cant win but must fight anyway

its the old adage ..whats the difference between a nazi and a jew?
nothing if you ask a palistinian

Originally posted by they see ALL
how do i do this???

i said that the terrorists ways is right because everything in war is right...

ALL peoples in ALL countries envolved in the war are targets...

the way i am is neutral: i dont care who lives / dies / why or how they die / who wins...

ALL aspects of war are NEUTRAL (everything in the war is "OK" because there is no right / wrong in the world only in a persons head)

Well I dunno... You have a very distorted outlook on life, and I feel sorry for you.

I, like TPM, am interested in your answer to his question. I wonder why you haven't given one yet...

If America adopted the philosophy of win by any means necessary, this "war" would have been over long ago. These terrorist are basically nats when compared to the big picture. If we wanted to squash them It would be as simple as pushing a button. But since that is not our philosophy the terrorist will continue to think that they are making thier point and winning the war with each beheading.

As it was already said before, eventually, just like the car bomb after car bomb, the general public will get numb to the beheadings. And if the non-military do get out of their country, then who will they make thier point with? Well, they probably resort to using thier own people.

Originally posted by troublemagnet
i dont believe the terror tactics are right but i feel we are playing by some rules and the enemy isnt,not terribly sporting! so we are in this for the long haul and i feel its a war we cant win but must fight anyway

its the old adage ..whats the difference between a nazi and a jew?
nothing if you ask a palistinian

there's the difference, everyone wants to hold america's feet to the fire if we dont play by the rules yet hardly anyone goes to the UN because terrorists dont play by the same rule. because everyone know sits easier to hold america accountable than terrorists.

but if we did these things....oh my god, the world would be in an uproar condemning us and running to the UN over it. yet everyone turns a blind eye to a terrorist doing it.

rules of war is an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp, military intelligence...show em a country that has played by all the rules and i'll show you a country that hasnt been to war or hasnt been caught yet.

TSA is being very NEechian( I have no idea how to spell that name.)

Man and Superman. The rule are what you make them. You can not be held responsible for the laws of another.

Thats great. I for one will just smile and nod the next time he/she responds.

Text

Originally posted by they see ALL

how do i do this???

i said that the terrorists ways is right because everything in war is right...

ALL peoples in ALL countries envolved in the war are targets...

the way i am is neutral: i dont care who lives / dies / why or how they die / who wins...

ALL aspects of war are NEUTRAL (everything in the war is "OK" because there is no right / wrong in the world only in a persons head)

and you have never once criticized the US for its actions in iraq or afghanistan? i CAN and WILL look through all your posts to see if you have but i prefer you answer the question. i think there are very few on this board who havent criticized the US's actions in iraq or afghanistan. and i'm pretty sure you arent one of them.

There is no legitimate reason to kill innocent non-combatants. Whether you are talking about London, Dresden, New York or Baghdad, there is no possible reason to do that. War itself is sick enough without killing innocent people.
I understand the true 'Freedom Fighters' such as the French Resistance who used geurilla tactics against the Nazis and French collaborators. They didn't go out to kill innocents. Osama bin Laden and his al quaeda group are definitely not 'Freedom fighters' in my opinion. Killing civilians is a cowardly way to wage a 'war'. They are true terrorists.

Nietzche.


What is the basis or foundation of what you believe is right or wrong? TSA is not that far off here( though I think it's a different topic).

How do you know that what you deem wrong at the time doesn't work out for some greater 'good' or vice versa. Right/Wrong is highly subjective, Good/Evil the same. Why is that so scary and maniacal?

for YOU (people reading) what defines YOUR right / wrong???

your president who will always say his side is right because he is on a side that is involved in this war???

your God who does not have any proof of existince (sp???) ???

who???

my point is there is NO REAL right / wrong...

a person can make his or her OWN right / wrong by belonging to a country or being part of a religion ets. but that is FAKE right / wrong

in this world there is NO right / wrong...

societies / religions make their OWN right and wrong in a foolish attempt to say "im right and if you want to be right join us"

TPM--- what is you question???

P.S. if you are willing through all of my posts to find out my beliefs than all i have to say is "damn, do you ever quit??? "