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What was there before the Universe?

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posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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Everything is made up of atoms.

The following question actually hurts my brain just trying to understand it.

What was there before the Universe was in existence?
You reply, "Nothing"

But nothing is made up of something
How did the first atoms and particles come to be?
They can't have simply appeared?

Everytime i think about what was here before the universe i just see a white room, but that white room is made up of particles, where did those particles come from?

Share your ideas, personally i dont think we will ever find out how the first atoms and particles came into existence.




posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:23 AM
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Is time part of the universe? There cannot be anything before time. If something exists out of time it always was, is, and always will be, because time is not a parameter it is bound to. Some speculate it was certain eternal structures. Others speculate a consciousness called God.


edit on 9-9-2010 by 547000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:27 AM
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This is all pretty well hashed out already and explained by the big bang theory.

Before the Universe there was nothing. And nothing has no dimensions so, therefore, it contains no matter. You are imagining an empty space when, actually, before the big bang event, there was not even an empty space.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


But where did the particles come from to make the big bang?



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by Haydn_17
reply to post by Hefficide
 


But where did the particles come from to make the big bang?


The theory is that they came from a singularity which was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Every bit of energy and matter that exists crammed into a space so small as to almost be beyond understanding.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 





posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


So from nothing came something... If I'm correct, even Darwin said that there had to be a 'God' giving that little spark. Creationism is much more logic to me than "something out of nothing". Even science disproves such a statement!



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide

Originally posted by Haydn_17
reply to post by Hefficide
 


But where did the particles come from to make the big bang?


The theory is that they came from a singularity which was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Every bit of energy and matter that exists crammed into a space so small as to almost be beyond understanding.


So, this singularity required no genesis? Infinitely small? If it is small, or could be considered small, then it was small in comparison to....to what? Infinity? Infinitely small isn't even an oxymoron. It's a non-sequitor at best. Density suggests compressed matter. What matter? Where did this matter come from? What was this matter composed of? How is it that this infinitely small, dense singularity came into existence, and why did it come into existence? Where was the need for it to exist, and what was it that needed it to exist?

Existence depends on opportunity and requirement. At least it does at every redundant level of existence, so one can responsibly extrapolate that this requirement is present throughout the existential chain, and all the way to its genesis.

Franjkly, if you're going to embrace an eternally present singularity that is infinitely dense and infinitely small that always was before it spontaneously became tired of inertia and exploded, then you may as well embrace a god that is infinitely powerful, infinitely aware and infinitely present, who suiddenly got tired of being the only always in existence and decided to create people. What's the difference? Both defy the logical requirement of physical genesis while retaining the capacity to directly impact physical existence. Both violate reality in the same fundamental manner.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


The OP did not ask where God came from. In fact the specific question pertained to atoms. The big bang does not even have to be mutually exclusive from the concept of a divinity. It is a mechanism to explain the material world and not the spiritual.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by NorEaster
 


The OP did not ask where God came from. In fact the specific question pertained to atoms. The big bang does not even have to be mutually exclusive from the concept of a divinity. It is a mechanism to explain the material world and not the spiritual.


The truth is that if a "something" can physically interact with the physical realm, then it shares a foundational "platform" with the physical realm, and is therefore physical itself. Wind isn't solid, but we know that it's physical. It's also invisible, but again, we accept it as being physical. We can even pass through it, but no one is suggesting that the wiond is not physical.

There is no "spiritual" realm. This is all one physical environment that contains the corporeal realm and the realms that reach into it. All sharing a common foundational platform.

My assertion is that the OP is asking where the universe came from, and that the notion of an infinitely small and dense singularity that never had to come into existence, is just as illogical as the notion of a guy with a white beard who never had to come into existence. It's not about God. It's about the requirement for an existential genesis for anything (be it God or an infinitely small, dense singularity) that can directly "touch" the corporeal realm (as both of these allegedly can).

The Big Bang is just as much of an intellectual surrender as "turtles all the way down" is. Both sidestep the issue of genesis. Both demand an eternal always impacting presence, and that is what I'm challenging.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 08:57 AM
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Well said Noreaster- I completely agree.

I don't subscribe to any religion, but the more and more I think about the question that the OP has posted (which I've done for quite some time now) I too become more baffled. I feel that both theological and scientific beliefs or theories hold the same weight. As outlandish as some religious views may sound, the same goes for the ideas presented in science. While math can "prove" things to a point, math cannot explain "WHY" our universe was conceived. What came before the "Big Bang" if it truly happened that way? Why did the Big Bang happen anyhow?

The similarity I see between both religion and science and the ideas they present, is the fact that both of them trace it all back to "ONE". A supreme something, an infinite something. The God Particle, or a God.
While not answering the OP's question as to what came before our Universe, I will speculate that science and religion speak of the same supreme "Creator"..

According to science, everything we know came from one extremely dense point that spontaneously exploded into everything we know and will know. Everything started from ONE thing. So its safe to say, we are all a part of that ONE thing to a degree. The particles that were dispersed from this one extremely dense point, created everything we are able to perceive right now, in the past, and in the future. You, me, the rocks in your driveway, the plastics in your computer, the sun, the moon, the stars and any other celestial body are all essentially made from the same thing at the smallest conceivable level. The structure is different, therefore the output may appear or behave differently, but its all the same. All a part of the ONE dense point that expanded into everything. In a sense, that ONE point is our creator. The grand design was within that point, and blossomed into everything we see around us. This point, in science is essentially God. It is in all of us, it connects us to everything else and it created and ultimately "KNOWS" or at least "KNEW" in a sense, what would be.

Religions preach essentially the same concept, and I won't say all religions.. But many even Buddhism, have interlinking elements with this idea. When I say essentially the same, I mean: Most religions talk about a central deity, a creator, or all knowing supreme being. In the Christian religion it is said that we are all the children of God, and are we not even according to science? We are all a part of the ONE. We are all interconnected and blessed by God, or the ONE because it is the reason we are here. Whether it is the Big Bang or a God, they both essentially created and determined what our reality is. If you want to get real technical, and talk about pre-determinism, and how even through science.. Everything to a point was determined to happen before it happened. The initial expansion or explosion of the universe, if looked at mathematically... Set off precise actions and reactions at the very moment of expansion, that ultimately decided what our universe would be. Once a particle's direction or course was made and it was pushed away from the epicenter, the paths were chosen. This can tie directly into the belief that "god has a plan" although I don't really believe it affects us, as humans, quite so directly and that is because of ability to use free will. Of course I could be wrong, and me typing this message at this very moment could have been predetermined and I had no choice in it. It's easier for me to think that I do have a choice though.

I sincerely feel that Jesus, or the Buddha, or any major human or at least human like figure that a religion is based around, all recognized the interconnectedness and importance of knowing our link with a God or Nature, or one... Or YOURSELF. They had tapped into this spirituality somehow, and knew that it could be done by anyone if approached properly. Its all about preservation, loss of ego and realizing that we are one in the same with the ONE or God, or Creator. Any actions we perform only reflect upon ourselves. They change the whole, because we are all one.

While this does not answer the question, this is where I've found myself in trying to come to grips with what all of this is. I don't really know what caused the universe to be. Or perhaps it always has been and always will be. Or we are just a bubble of consciousness constantly expanding and reproducing to relive and relearn our own experiences to essentially experience and be infinitely all knowing. Perhaps I'm totally wrong and more than likely I am.. But to me, it's hard to overlook so many glaring similarities between science, and religion. Maybe I'm not well read enough to really grasp the difference.. I dunno. Take that as you will. Interested to hear what others think!



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 09:10 AM
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I believe a time will come when we or something(god, aliens, you decide) will have to create the universe. I don't think it would make much of a difference when the universe is created.. trillion years ago, a minute from now or next week. If their wasn't time "before" the universe then theirs no reason why it cant be created "after" its already happened, IMO.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Bumr055
 


Another interesting point you brought up Bumr055. Along the lines of what Joe Rogan talked about in one of his blog posts. Interesting read too, I think anyone in this thread would find interest in what he has to say. He's a comedian and commentator, but he's got some really intriguing ideas. He likes Ray Kurzweil and Terence Mckenna too, and those are two people I've got a lot of respect for. Check it out, here is a part that reminded me of what you said about humans or aliens creating the universe again:

We're Getting Closer to Forever - Joe Rogan


The thought that I’ve been tossing around over the last few years – is what if it’s the human race itself that creates this moment. I mean, if the most sophisticated and complicated experiment human beings have ever undertaken – the very culmination of our technological mastery – is a machine that’s designed to recreate the moments right after the big bang, do you really think we’re going to stop there? Not a #ing chance. It’s going to keep going. It’s going to keep moving forward despite the protests and concerns of those paying attention. It’s going to be buried deep in the back of your list of priorities when it comes to things to pay attention to. Between sex, and sleep, and work and play, and love and hate, and John and Kate you’ll barely even know it’s going on. You’re going to be sitting at home smoking a joint, drinking a beer watching celebrity rehab, and some half-mad, obsessed genius that sleeps 5 hours a night and pounds redbulls all day is going to come to a point where he’s not exactly sure what’s going to happen if he takes his life’s work to the next level. He’s going to stand there, looking at the button, not exactly sure what to do. Then he’s going to take a deep breath, and say, “# it… Let’s see.” BIG BANG, and the Universe starts again from scratch, this time doing everything a little bit better and a little bit faster, until it’s time to say, “# it…” again. This process will go on for infinity, every time getting further, more complex, more advanced, but never finished. You and your life and me and mine are just a part of a cycle that’s been around forever. There was no beginning, and there will be no end.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
The theory is that they came from a singularity which was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Every bit of energy and matter that exists crammed into a space so small as to almost be beyond understanding.


This is what I don't get, though.

If time was one of the things that came out of the Big Bang, then how did the singularity initially occur if there was no time ?



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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Let me know when you find the answer. I will have your Nobel waiting for you along with the prize money. There is only one correct answer to this question. "We do not know". That does not mean that we will NEVER know and it certainly does not mean you should pull out the "god" card due to lack of experimental evidence.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:01 AM
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Excellent question...will man ever find the answer to that, wher did that first atom form....



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:02 AM
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What if C.A.T. really spelled dog?

Great thread. Honestly hurts my head trying to wrap my mind around the fact that "nothing" was there.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 
Are we talking about space or the universe.They are two seperate things.(well thats what i thought)
Perhaps space has always been there and the universe created with the bang theory.
It is impossible for nothing to exist ,don't think our brains are capable of trying to figure out what was there before nothing.
I would say atoms and matter have always been there.
I would also say the universe has always been there.
How the hell would anybody know when it started and how.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:31 AM
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I don't think we'll be able to answer the OP's question, but at least we can exchange theories and ideas that can help us to wrap our heads around it more comfortably. Not that we'll understand it, but it may make it easier to imagine. What theories could coincide with your beliefs? What seems more plausible to you and why? Any incite or cross referencing between other ideas or beliefs would be interesting to hear. I'm not really looking for an answer myself, but it's always fun to speculate and see the perspectives of others. It broadens the knowledge for everyone, makes everyone a little more tolerant of different ideas



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 10:59 AM
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M-theory contends that while we may be existing in 3D with other higher unseen dimensions as part of a universal "membrane" of all matter in the universe, there could be an infinite number of unseen parallel universes or "membranes" very similar to ours that regularly collide causing what we perceive in 3D as the big bang...



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