How can you go to Heaven if you Support War or the Death Penalty?

reply to post by randomname


I could care less. As i said, i don't believe in heaven or hell so i wont be complaining. It does not exist!

what was the point of your post?

Heaven is just a mythical place to give followers of organized religion hope in life. It gives them something to look forward to.

As for the war and death penalty, well, who's surprised Christians support such violence? This is the same religion responsible for the Crusades.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
Heaven is just a mythical place to give followers of organized religion hope in life. It gives them something to look forward to.

As for the war and death penalty, well, who's surprised Christians support such violence? This is the same religion responsible for the Crusades.

My friend,

Heaven is no mystical place. It only exists somewhere else because we fail to open our eyes and see it. Heaven is right here before our eyes. It is THIS world. It is through our blindness that we have turned it into a Hell.

As for war and Christians, if we did not war for our beliefs in God, we would war for something else, money, gold, oil, you name it. We war because we think we are above someone else. We think we deserve more of something than someone else. Some Christians believe they are more blessed by God than everyone else. Their feelings of superiority are not restricted to them alone. Who here does not think themselves superior to someone else over something?

Even you have demonstrated your superiority with your post. If you were raised as such, brainwashed as such, and believed as such, would you be strong enough to resist all this and not make war? That my friend, you will never know for certain.

Therefore, judge them not! Love them, and forgive them, as you love and forgive yourself.

With Love,

Your Brother

Personally, I don't believe in any organized religion, although as a Deist I think there is a Creator and probably an afterlife in some other dimension. I doubt that it will like the Christian version of heaven, but it may be in some realm or universe outside of material space-time as we understand it. Ancient mystics understood all that better than I do.

War, crime, hunger, disease, social pathology, poverty... these are all part of our lowly level of existence here on earth. I think we have actually made some progress aaginst all these evils in the last 100 years or so but let's face it, for the majority of people today, life is still pretty primitive and miserable, and they hardly get even a basic minimum of food, clothing and shelter.

Most governments and economic systems are lousy and corrupt, as well, and are only set up for the elite, not for the bottom 80%. Under conditions like these, war and violence are inevitable, and the worst crimes are always committed by those with the most power. I've seen that all over the world. The higher up these people get, the worse they are.

Most wars are fought over territory, raw materials and natural resources, and benefit the elite groups. The most profitable kinds of crime, such as drugs and other organized crime, also is tied in with the elite and ruling groups in most countries. It's only the poor dumb street criminals and lower class types who end up in jail most of the time, not the people who commit the worst crimes. Usually, the death penalty is also reserved for the lower classes.

Of course, some people are evil and sociopathic enough so that they deserve to be executed, but I still say the worst sociopaths of all are usually the ones in power all over the world. They also start wars if they think they can gain by it.

Many of the earliest Christians were pacifists, although that certainly changed when Christianity became the official message of the Roman Empire--which would have totally appalled Jesus. That would have been the last think he would have wanted.

Let's just say that his message got a little distorted over the centuries. Christanity as a state-religion is responsible for all kinds of crimes and atrocities that Jesus would most likely have opposed.

Gandhi said it best when he declaed that he liked Jesus but he didn't like most Christians. I don't blame him.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I dont know the quote but god also said you have the right to defend yourself from harm. if i ever get attacked and i most shot someone in self defence i would try my best to keep them alive by shotting them in the sholder or knee. if he is still a threat ill keep shoting till he/she stops

My friend,

This too is in error, from my perspective, my friend. If you harm, even those who seek to kill you, you have already made the mistake of judging your own life more valuable than theirs. Even if you only seek to harm them, not kill, you have judged you being without harm, is more precious than preventing your Brothers. This thinking of , my self protection is more valuable than another's, is what brings us to the viscous cycle of "Survival of the fittest" that we find ourselves in today. Would a thief be a thief, if you willing gave him what he needed out of love? Would a murderer, be compelled to murder, him who he received love from? Only if he had a defect in the physical make up of his mind. He should not be condemned, but diagnosed and healed, which we have the ability to do.

To live by survival instincts is to live like beasts. We are Man, and better is expected of us.

Judge not, Love all. Death is not our end, but a new beginning.

With love,

Your Brother

then in this instence what would you do if your home was invated by a murderer. or if that same person was to invade your house and rape your wife or child. would you then just sit there and ask them to stop nicely? there is evil in this world. If a man did invade my house and was going to rape why wife i would not stand there, watch and ask kindly for them to stop. what would you do in this "self protection" of family and self? I for one will kill the basterd

Originally posted by earth2
Assuming there is a heaven and God gave us the Ten Commandments..

The sixth commandment is very clear - THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
And supporting the war makes you an accomplice.
Same as the death penalty, if you are for it, you are breaking a commandment.


I was going to include some Bible quotes to back it up, but for every Bible verse there is always another to contradict and I thought, lets keep it simple.
So, sticking with the commandments only, how can you be for killing and still go to heaven?

What would Jesus do? Would he obey the commandment or support the death penalty and War killings?

In my opinion, it is so simple to answer that question

The Hebrew word used there in that verse is "murder", and carries the meaning of shedding "innocent blood". Look it up in a concordance.

Secondly, people don't go to heaven by what they did, but by accepting Jesus Christ and HIS finished work at the cross.

Christ is the hero of the story, not us.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
then in this instence what would you do if your home was invated by a murderer. or if that same person was to invade your house and rape your wife or child. would you then just sit there and ask them to stop nicely? there is evil in this world. If a man did invade my house and was going to rape why wife i would not stand there, watch and ask kindly for them to stop. what would you do in this "self protection" of family and self? I for one will kill the basterd

My friend,

I would stand between him and those I love. I will suffer every injury he threw at me, but I would not suffer him to be injured, I would beg and plead with him. I would let him know that he is hurting someone who loves him, absolutely loves him, but I would not harm him. In the end, he would have to kill me to complete his act, but that would be his doing not mine.

With love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
Heaven is just a mythical place to give followers of organized religion hope in life. It gives them something to look forward to.

Jesus taught about the reality of heaven more than anyone in the Bible, yet He hated organized religion and was killed by the Pharisees.

As for the war and death penalty, well, who's surprised Christians support such violence? This is the same religion responsible for the Crusades.

Hmmm, my history book said the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for the crusades and the inquisitions. The Christians were the ones being burned at the stake and ripped apart by horses.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The Hebrew word used there in that verse is "murder", and carries the meaning of shedding "innocent blood". Look it up in a concordance.

Secondly, people don't go to heaven by what they did, but by accepting Jesus Christ and HIS finished work at the cross.

Christ is the hero of the story, not us.

Yes my friend, Christ is the hero of the story. Are heroes not to be emulated? Is he not the Greatest hero, worthy of the greatest emulation?

Which was his message, Was it emulate me or deify me?

Answer carefully for your answer will reveal much about you.

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Christ claimed to be God over 85 times in the NT. We don't need to "deify" Him. He is God manifest in the flesh whether we agree to it or not. Every time He referred to himself as the "Son of Man" it was a direct reference to Daniel Chapter 7 where he prophesied God would come to Earth as a man.

John 10:32-33

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

But I have to ask you, what does this have to do with the thread at hand? If you want to discuss the deity or Jesus Christ I suggest you make a thread in BTS's Religion forum.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


My friend, Christ never claimed to be God, he stated very clearly, "I am the Son of God", "I am the Son of Man", both of which does not make him God, but a part of God, which we all are.

As the thread is about making it to heaven by condoning war and murder, I think this distinction is an important one to be made when discussing the subject matter. Heaven is right here with us, but we will never make it so when we condone war and murder. My understanding of Jesus, says he would agree with that thought.

With love,

Your Brother

reply to post by earth2


Have you ever read the Bible? There was war mandated by God time and time again. There was the death penalty under God's law... example: both people who were caught in the act of adultry were to be stoned to death. The "thou shalt not kill commandment in Hebrew mean Murder, not kill. Murder being taking the life of someone by premeditation. Kidnapping was punishable by death, as a matter of fact for those who entered a covenant relationship with God, working on the sabbath (7th day-Saturday) was punishable by death. Please, read the bible.... get a direct Hebrew to English translation, the Jewish Press Society has a good translation, also a Strong's Concordance so you can look up both Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) so that if you aren't sure of the meaning of a passage you can look to it's roots. The KJV and many other translations have been washed through so many languages (Latin being one of them...) that the essence of it's meaning has been lost. While you're at it please read carefully and tell me where the Bible ever says that we go to heaven? The "Kingdom of Heaven" is here on Earth. Heaven is the throne room of the Most High, man was not made to be in Heaven, they were created to live here on Earth. God's kingdom will be here on Earth, ruled by His son the Messiah. We will not ever go to heaven, it is not our habitation. God's people will inherit the Land of Promise and live as one people, with one law.

Originally posted by elle.mental
reply to post by earth2

 

Have you ever read the Bible? There was war mandated by God time and time again. There was the death penalty under God's law... example: both people who were caught in the act of adultry were to be stoned to death. The "thou shalt not kill commandment in Hebrew mean Murder, not kill. Murder being taking the life of someone by premeditation. Kidnapping was punishable by death, as a matter of fact for those who entered a covenant relationship with God, working on the sabbath (7th day-Saturday) was punishable by death. Please, read the bible.... get a direct Hebrew to English translation, the Jewish Press Society has a good translation, also a Strong's Concordance so you can look up both Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) so that if you aren't sure of the meaning of a passage you can look to it's roots. The KJV and many other translations have been washed through so many languages (Latin being one of them...) that the essence of it's meaning has been lost. While you're at it please read carefully and tell me where the Bible ever says that we go to heaven? The "Kingdom of Heaven" is here on Earth. Heaven is the throne room of the Most High, man was not made to be in Heaven, they were created to live here on Earth. God's kingdom will be here on Earth, ruled by His son the Messiah. We will not ever go to heaven, it is not our habitation. God's people will inherit the Land of Promise and live as one people, with one law.

My friend,

Do you read the Bible from back to front? If one reads the Bible forwards, clearly what was mentioned in the "Old" testament, was an example of what will become if you do not live by the "New" testament. Shall we shake off the "New" to don the trappings and misunderstanding of the "Old? Is this progress to go backwards?

Your welcome to it my friend, but this leads to a very miserable existence.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by elle.mental


So let me get this straight, its ok to kill a human when the bible says so? Adultery, for example.

Yea I laughed at that.

And another question, since you 'know' the Bible. Would Jesus ever kill a human?

At least give me the answer to the last question, please.

reply to post by IAMIAM


IAMIAM, I appreciate and have starred everything you have wrote in this thread and, in my opinion, everything you write is exactly as God or Jesus would do.

You give the most logical advice I have ever read concerning what is right and what is wrong.

Thank you.

Originally posted by earth2
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

IAMIAM, I appreciate and have starred everything you have wrote in this thread and, in my opinion, everything you write is exactly as God or Jesus would do.

You give the most logical advice I have ever read concerning what is right and what is wrong.

Thank you.

You are most welcome my friend. I am just sharing my view of the word as I see it through the eyes of love. It is no more valid than anyone else's for they have their own eyes to see it with. Choose your eyes carefully, and all sorts of wonders are before you.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Lol.. u didn't read a SINGLE thing I posted. Jesus claimed deity over 85 times in the gospels. You time and time again display a fundamental ignorance to the word of God. If you wish to know why you twist scripture so badly read 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Jesus even told the Pharisees He existed before Abraham.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Who is Jesus to you?
www.messiahtruth.com...

So whatever is in the NT rewrites the Torah? I don't think so!
www.messiahtruth.com...
www.messiahtruth.com...

The New Testament is such a mess one author will say one thing and the other will say the opposite of what he said.
www.messiahtruth.com...
www.infidels.org...
skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Christ claimed to be God over 85 times in the NT. We don't need to "deify" Him. He is God manifest in the flesh whether we agree to it or not. Every time He referred to himself as the "Son of Man" it was a direct reference to Daniel Chapter 7 where he prophesied God would come to Earth as a man.

This is an assumption on your part because you want it to be true. Show me a verse where Jesus said "I am the dude talked about in Daniel Chapter 7". He never did, because he never claimed to be God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
John 10:32-33

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

This is a fitting quote you used right here. It only shows your lack of reading comprehension. Jesus asks, why are you stoning me? The Jews answered, Because you make yourself God!". It is an accusation from an accuser.

The Irony of it all is you are doing the same thing to me. I never said I was Jesus, I never said I was God, I simply show the wonders of God, and show the love of Jesus, and YOU make the accusation!

Here is what I have claimed from the beginning:

I AM (I do exist don't I?)
I am the Son of God (If God created Adam, and we all hail from that symbolic first man, am I not a Son of God? YES, and so are you! We are all the Sons and Daughters of God.)
I am the Son of Man (do I need to explain this one?)
I am the King of Kings (Are we all not Kings and Queens? Yes we are! We all are Sovereigns of our own free will. That is our kingdom)
I have claimed Jesus as my Brother (If he decended from the line of Man, which he himself declares numerously, then he is my Brother.)

So, I have heard your perspective. I have showed you your error in comprehension. I have offered you nothing but friendly discourse. I have showed you nothing but love. All of which you reject. Do you show yourself for a hypocrite?

With Love,

Your Brother