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Separation of Church and State?????

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posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


In order to answer that question, what you would have to do is go through the different Supreme Court Cases, where the question of prayer in the public school system has been put on trial.
Based off of my research here are the different court cases:
McCollum V. Board of Education Dist. 71, 1948
Burstyn V. Wilson, 1952
Torcaso V. Watkins, 1961
Engle V. Vitale, 1962
Abington School District V. Schempp, 1963
Epperson V. Arkansas, 1968
Lemon V. Kurtzman, 1971
Stone V. Graham, 1980
Wallace V. Jaffree, 1985
Edwards V. Aquillard, 1987
Allegheny County V. ACLU, 1989
Lee V. Weisman, 1992
In each of these cases, as with all of the Supreme Court Cases, the question of what is constitutional and not, often boils down to a test of 3 questions. The primary question in which resulted in all of these cases to ruled the way that they were, boiled down to the question of intent, and if in the attempt of a public school was trying to push a particular religion, or if it did indeed discriminate against a particular religion. In each case, this turned out to be the case.
The federal and state government are strictly forbidden from backing or getting involved in any religion in carrying out their duties in the position that they hold. That means a mayor can not publically endorse a church, or read from a particular holy text of book at the start of any governmental meeting. They can in private attend and believe and worship as they so choose, but while not working in the jobs to which they are hired. The laws are very specific in that case. For say a principle or a school to read biblical scriptures in a public school could be concieved that they are backing a particular religion. Now the question of what is the difference between a public school and a religious school. The main difference and this too was backed and supported by the Supreme Court of the United States, is that the religious schools are considered private schools, and those who seek to send their children to such,much pay money for their children to attend. In a private institution, the rules are set by those who run such, and are not under the jurisdiction of the public arena. This was proven in the court case involving the Boy Scouts.




posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 07:21 AM
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REAL EQUALITY - no prayers at the meetings. Period. Why do they have them anyways? They can pray at home or wherever the heck they want to .. on their own time. No prayers needed at the meeting .. no prayers of any kind. Ditch all official prayers. Make it totally equal.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory
There is no such thing as seperation of church and state.
Please show me in the Constitution where it states this.

Seperation of church and state is a Liberal/Progressive opinion of what they want and NOT what the Constitution actually says.

The great thing about the Constitution is that it's written so everyday people can understand the meaning. If you actually read it, it states that the Federal Government cannot promote a specific religion. It says nothing about seperation of church and state, nothing about not being allowed to pray in schools or in public places and other such nonesense.


You contradict yourself...You cede that Government cannot promote a specific religion, but then claim that Prayer in public School does not constitute the same. Note that in private school you may pray all you like.

Also - Prayer is not forbidden in Public School...it just cannot be mandated by teachers



Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive. Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and discuss religion with other willing student listeners. In the classroom students have the right to pray quietly except when required to be actively engaged in school activities (e.g., students may not decide to pray just as a teacher calls on them). In informal settings, such as the cafeteria or in the halls, students may pray either audibly or silently, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other speech in these locations. However, the right to engage in voluntary prayer does not include, for example, the right to have a captive audience listen or to compel other students to participate.
www2.ed.gov...

As for Church and State not being in the constitution? Niether is "the right to own a glock nine pistol", but most reasonable folks understand the "right to bear arms" says the same.



The term "wall of separation" was first used in an informal letter by President Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a committee of Baptists in Connecticut. Jefferson referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state.[1] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Separation of Church of Sate is a must! Since the U.S. is a multicultural country with citizens of all religions and non religious beliefs. We shouldn't have one dominated belief system.


That wasn't the intent of the founders. They didn't want any Christian denomination to have sway in the government as it did with the British.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by silent thunder
Separation of church and state is vital. No political decisions should be based on religious factors per se.


I guess we can take out the murder laws since they were based on the Bible. Where do you think our laws came from? I believe they came from the Bible.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by texastig

I guess we can take out the murder laws since they were based on the Bible. Where do you think our laws came from? I believe they came from the Bible.


You are confusing overlap.

Long before christianity, murder was not tolerated in society. Geez even remote tribes have laws against murder.

Seriously? Thinking cap on?



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Separation of Church of Sate is a must! Since the U.S. is a multicultural country with citizens of all religions and non religious beliefs. We shouldn't have one dominated belief system.


That wasn't the intent of the founders. They didn't want any Christian denomination to have sway in the government as it did with the British.


This is just inane. You should fact check what people tell you.

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by WhatTheory
 


In order to answer that question, what you would have to do is go through the different Supreme Court Cases, where the question of prayer in the public school system has been put on trial.


You could not be more wrong. Sorry, but I don't need an interpretation from a judge to know what I am reading in the Constitution. The Constitution was deliberately written to be understood by everyone. Perhaps you need someone to tell you what it means but I can read and comprehend it on my own. Thanks.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11
You contradict yourself...You cede that Government cannot promote a specific religion, but then claim that Prayer in public School does not constitute the same. Note that in private school you may pray all you like.


Umm.....how is that a contradiction?

Just because you allow prayer in public schools does not mean that the Federal Government is promoting a specific religion. People of any faith could pray so your point is moot.


As for Church and State not being in the constitution? Niether is "the right to own a glock nine pistol", but most reasonable folks understand the "right to bear arms" says the same.


Exactly, thanks for helping my point.

Most reasonable people will come to the conclusion that the Constitution means the government cannot promote a specific religion and says nothing about the seperation of church and state.



posted on Sep, 16 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


No, I am correct, I was just backing my answer to your question up with the proof and the decision of those who are charged to interpret the laws to determine what is and is not legal and falls under the Constitution of the United States.
For the record, there is no passage in the Constitution of the United States of America that creates a wall of seperation between church and state. It does however create a wall that seperates State and Church. The wall of Seperation between church and state was further explained and discussed by a letter between President Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist, in which the President explained that the state is forbidden, by the Constitution, for advocating or becoming involved with any religious institution and that people were free to worship as they so choose.
For the record, being a bit borderline rude in your response is really not a way to go, and tends to take away from your crediabiltiy and argument. I would prefer to have a good argument without the insulting, as I believe everyone should.



edit on 16-9-2010 by sdcigarpig because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11
You are confusing overlap.
Long before christianity, murder was not tolerated in society. Geez even remote tribes have laws against murder.
Seriously? Thinking cap on?


How do you know that murder was not tolerated in society?



posted on Sep, 17 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11
This is just inane. You should fact check what people tell you.


Why do you think the Danbury Baptist Association asked Thomas Jefferson about it? They didn't want the government approving a Christian denomination over other Christian denominations.



edit on 9/17/2010 by texastig because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2010 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


"...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." - Thomas Jefferson

So at least one of the founding fathers interpreted the Constitution as separating the two. But what about the man referred to as the "Father of the Constitution", James Madison? Maybe he had a different opinion...

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States."

Or maybe...

"...practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

So, if separation of church and state is a complete and utter fabrication, why do at least two of the founding fathers mention it as being explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution? And I know, someone is going to argue that it was intended to protect religion from government, not the other way around. But I think the second quote there by Madison would put the lie to that.



posted on Sep, 17 2010 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by iterationzero
 


Well, you can post all you want about the founders and your interpretations of what they meant by what they said.

Seems to me the words they put down were pretty straight forward.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

SHALL MAKE NO LAW. Hmmmm, wonder how THAT can be misconstrued. Pretty basic.

No law or help from the government, promoting one religion over another or the restriction of one religion or ALL religions.

That would be the very basic assumption, of those that DO NOT have an agenda.

Notice how the only thing mentioned in the first amendment is CONGRESS shall make NO LAW. Pretty obvious. But THEN WE HAVE the courts, which have NO LEGISLATIVE POWER, go and interpret it to allow legislation to bar anyone from speaking about religion. HMMMMM, seems kinda counter intuitive.

I WONDER WHY they did that?



posted on Sep, 17 2010 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 


here are some other good ones-

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."



posted on Sep, 18 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by maybereal11
As for Church and State not being in the constitution? Niether is "the right to own a glock nine pistol", but most reasonable folks understand the "right to bear arms" says the same.



Originally posted by WhatTheory
Exactly, thanks for helping my point.

Most reasonable people will come to the conclusion that the Constitution means the government cannot promote a specific religion and says nothing about the seperation of church and state.


Well apparently you and the author of that portion of the constitution disagree on what it means...I'll stick with the TJs interpetation, the man who wrote it.


Originally posted by maybereal11
The term "wall of separation" was first used in an informal letter by President Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a committee of Baptists in Connecticut. Jefferson referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947.
en.wikipedia.org...


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edit on 18-9-2010 by maybereal11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2010 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 


Of course you will. Even though private correspondence has nothing to do with law, anything to push the ideology, right?

What is written down is the law, do not like it, there is the LAWFUL way of changing the Constitution, I know some folk hate attempting that. Especially since it takes a supermajority to do it. Along with 3/4 of the states agreeing.

That is why their are people that say the Constitution is a living document, so that way they can break the law.



posted on Oct, 14 2010 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 


Boston Area School System Gets Muslim Holiday...

www.boston.com...



posted on Oct, 14 2010 @ 09:57 AM
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there are two two thoughts on what or who the church is specifically, I prefer the one that says people (but have no problem with someone prefering the other) just like a representative or statesman is and very well could be the two rolled up into one

God does'nt dwell in temples/houses made by mens hands says the prophet- written in Acts

where two or three come together in my name there I am(Jesus)-its written

the Spirit and the Bride say come-its written

those that murdered him said quit speaking in his name-its written

they said quit confronting us with the Holy One of Israel-its written

they voted a murderer to be free but not Christ-its written
edit on 14-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)




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