It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Trying to save your home will get you tased

page: 5
21
<< 2  3  4   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:15 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra

Its not electrocution, nor is it police brutality when used correctly. Please learn what the tool does before commenting on it. It transmits on the same brain frequency that controls motor function. It overrides the signal, causing the muscles to expand/contract. Once the cycle ends there is no side effects from it.

Yes. let's learn what the tool does, shall we? I'll keep it simple: from Wikipedia:

Electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the body's muscle-triggering mechanisms.

True! But what this doesn't tell you is why the unit uses such a high voltage.

The skin on a human body is a poor insulator. You can touch the terminals of a car battery and experience no shock, because the skin has a high resistance to electrical current. This is bad news for anyone who wants to run a current through your body. The good news is that underneath the skin, the human body contains many different fluids which are better conductors. Want proof? Stick a 9V battery to your tongue... you will feel a tingle from the electrical energy that can flow from a mere 9V through moist tissue (and yes, this is safe... the voltage is not high enough to cause any damage. I actually test my 9V batteries that way when I don't have a meter handy).

The 50kV is there for only a few milliseconds to ionize the skin, meaning that it serves to break down the natural resistance one has to electrical contact. Once this ionization is complete, the skin at the location of the ionization acts as a conductor. At this point, most tasers drop the voltage to 5kV, because the 50kV is not only not needed, but dangerous (actually, I have discovered that some drop the voltage further to 1500V or 1.5kV; the 5kV figure was admittedly from a paper written a few years back).

Now hang on tight... this is where it gets interesting! Not everybody has the same resistance to electrical current, nor does everyone have similar ionization properties. That means that the units are designed to ionize the skin of someone with high resistance and low ionization. What happens when you hit someone with that power who has low resistance and good ionization properties? They get several times the 'normal' dosage of electricity!

To make things even easier, the taser uses small darts that actually penetrate the skin to bypass completely some of that initial skin resistance.

Now that the current is in your body, where will it go? Obviously it will go to the voluntary muscles, right? After all, that is what we want to accomplish using this device: to disable muscles. Oh, did you forget the human heart is a muscle? Oops... well, surely the current won't go that deep in the body, right? It's just two little darts.

Wrong. Electrical current will always take the path of least resistance... which in the human body can be the blood stream, nerves (which act already as electro-chemical conduits by nature), moist tissues, any area that contains salts (which act as electrical charge carriers), or a hundred different classifications of tissues and systems. It all depends on the condition of the body at the time of discharge.

So that little bit of current that is apparently enough to seize up muscles can just as easily seize up the heart muscle if it happens to make contact.

But let's assume for a moment that no neurons are damaged and somehow the current misses the heart. What happens to the muscles? Muscles are activated by electro-chemical signals. So this electrical current activates the muscles... with a strength many times what they would normally be exposed to during normal life. This causes them to contract, hard. Now what happens when a muscle contracts hard? It hurts... extremely badly! Think of the worst cramp you have ever experienced and multiply it by ten or more times. Now consider it's not just one muscle cramping, but a whole area of muscles cramping. Nice fun thought, isn't it? Let's see, for vacation this year, I think I'll skip the traveling thing and just have all of my muscles cramp up as hard as they can.


Sarcasm aside, this can lead to torn ligaments, tendons, bruised and possibly torn muscles. None of these are 'safe' conditions; ask anyone who ever tore one. Not to mention the possibility of nerve damage, potentially irreparable nerve damage, and all this is assuming a best case scenario where the current misses the heart!

Now, as to your claim that it uses a 'brain frequency' to jam the nerves... please, please, point this out to me in any link. So far as I have found in the technical literature, the only reason it uses a frequency at all is because that's the only way they can get 50kV in something that small. AC voltage conversion is simple; DC is quite another matter.


The 50k volts has nothing to do with anything. The amps is what can kill you.

A car battery has only 12 Volts, but can put out over 100 Amps of current. I have yet to hear of anyone who died from touching the terminals of their car battery.

A household outlet is fused at 15 Amps (OK, 20 in older homes) but has 120 VAC. I have heard of people dying from touching those.

The actual truth is that the current does do the damage, but the current is determined by the voltage divided by the resistance. It all works together, despite what you may have been told. Without the voltage, there would not be enough current flowing to do any good. That's why they use 50kV.

Just in case you're still skeptical, here's a little more technical data:

As well, the high-voltage pulse of a Taser is said to carry only a small current, typically 0.002 to 0.03 amps.
Source: www.cbc.ca...

So that's between 2 and 30 milliamps. Wattage is Voltage multiplied by Amperage, so 0.03 x 50,000 = 1500 Watts of energy entering your body. That's the energy required to light 15 100-Watt light bulbs!

So how much is required to be lethal? What is the limit?

There is no formula for exactly how much current will kill a person. Every body is built a little different. We can only know an average value. Any electrician will tell you not to worry about that value. When working with electricity, it is best to prevent it from flowing anywhere beyond one hand. A small amount of electricity in the brain can kill you. If not enough for death, it can damage the brain or at least cause an extreme siezure. Electricity through the heart can stop the rhythm, preventing the blood from flowing correctly. This is the most common cause of death due to electricity. Keep one hand in your back pocket, or strapped behind your back. Never use both hands when more than just a few flashlight batteries are involved.
Source: www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

A small amount of electricity in the brain can kill you... so why are there reports about people being tased in the head?

Perhaps you should do some studying yourself.

TheRedneck




posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:16 PM
link   
i just find U.S mentality abit odd ,
your not alowed
to save a drowning person
people left bleeding out on the street
and now
put out a fire

if your not alowed to this on your home soil how on earth are you gonna achive crisis management over seas or boardes,

im just perplexed



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by imitator
 


Uhm yeah.. Go to Tasers website and check the schematics for both the M and X 26 Tasers. The voltaqge is not what kills a person, amperage is.



edit on 8-9-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



No joke Sherlock, ummm if there is no voltage there is no amps, you might also think pumping small bits of amps per sec can't kill, you'll be wrong too.... get a clue, it's a torture device, it's electrocution!



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:24 PM
link   
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


I have done enough studying and training with these devices to know how they work. We have gone through their training, as well as the Law Enforcement training for their use. The stats I stated stand. Instead of relying on wikipedia, check the Taser website, being its their product, they would know. Dont want to beleive Taser, then check the Stinger website as they are the other company out there that has their own stunguns.

While I commend the attempt with the info provided, its off base and incorrect. We are going to have to agree to disagree here because you will not change my mind on the training ive recieved, and my experience with the item in practical use, both on me, and using it in other situations. I apparently will not change your mind here either.

People on here are way to quick to assign motive and to blame without knowing how things work. For a site that allows people the ability to seak the truth for Governmentment coverups, I am amazed at how many people refuse to do that. Everything the Government does in most peoples minds on here are wrong no matter what.

Ive given you gusy reasons for the Fire / Police action - Yet all people talk about is how brutal the cops are, or what this guys rights are etc. At no point has most people gone beyond the initial incident and actually looked at the laws in place.

Most of the posts I see are so absurd its not even funny.. Insinuating I would be a murder for using a taser on an individual interfering with Police, Medical and Fire.

What I find funny is there is no winning with most of you guys. The Cops are evil, bad, and corrupt no matter what, until something happens to smeone you know, and then it becomes we are inept, incompetant etc. At no point do I see anyone who complains about this becoming a cop themselves.

I guess its easier to constantly bitch and blame others rather than take part.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:25 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra

In all of the investigations done where a Taser was deployed, and the end result was death, not one can state that it was the Taser that caused the death. During these autopsies they have found drugs in the system or toher issues thaqt were the cause of death.


Really?

Amnesty International says that between 2001 and August 2008, 334 Americans died after Taser shocks. The stun gun was deemed to have caused or contributed to at least 50 of those deaths, Amnesty says, citing medical examiners and coroners. Most suspects were unarmed, and many were subjected to repeated or prolonged shocks, according to Amnesty.
Source: www.cbc.ca...

"citing medical examiners and coroners".... sounds like an official declaration of death by taser to me.


In November 2007, the UN Committee Against Torture released a statement saying "use of Taser X26 weapons, provoking extreme pain, constituted a form of torture, and … in certain cases, it could also cause death."
Source: www.cbc.ca...

The UN says it's torture... even they admit tasers are a form of torture and are potentially lethal.


In June 2008, Taser International lost its first civil suit. The company was ordered to pay more than $6 million in damages after a California jury found that shocks from the company's devices contributed 15 per cent to the Feb. 19, 2005, death of Robert Heston. The 40-year-old was zapped three times.
Source: www.cbc.ca...

Strike three...

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by imitator

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by imitator
 


Uhm yeah.. Go to Tasers website and check the schematics for both the M and X 26 Tasers. The voltaqge is not what kills a person, amperage is.



edit on 8-9-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



No joke Sherlock, ummm if there is no voltage there is no amps, you might also think pumping small bits of amps per sec can't kill, you'll be wrong too.... get a clue, it's a torture device, it's electrocution!


Yeah.. its a torture device.. Just like Water is a torture dvice when used in a way its not intended. The saqme with cars, boats, planes, hatchets, rocks, piano wire, toothbrushes.. I can keep going if you want...

What exactly is your training and exposure to a Taser? Plese by all means educate me on how they work and their ffect on the body.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:43 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra

I have done enough studying and training with these devices to know how they work. We have gone through their training, as well as the Law Enforcement training for their use. The stats I stated stand. Instead of relying on wikipedia, check the Taser website, being its their product, they would know. Dont want to beleive Taser, then check the Stinger website as they are the other company out there that has their own stunguns.

If I drive a car, does that make me a mechanic?

If I live in a house, does that make me a contractor?

You have been trained, apparently, in the use of a taser. I am speaking of the actual design and operation of the device, under the hood if you will. You have had training in how to use the device; I could easily build one from components right here.

Incidentally, you should keep in mind that your training was provided by those who advocate the continued use of tasers.


While I commend the attempt with the info provided, its off base and incorrect.

From Taser's own website, including the page on Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI):

A sophisticated pulse wave that utilizes a high voltage leading edge to penetrate barriers such as clothing around the body followed by a lower voltage stimulation pulse to cause neuromuscular incapacitation.

Apparently I was correct about the skin (and of course, clothing) being an electrical barrier... they admit it openly.


The human nervous system communicates with simple electrical impulses. The command center (brain and spinal cord) processes information and makes decisions. The peripheral nervous system includes the sensory and motor nerves. The sensory nerves carry information from the body to the brain (temperature, touch, etc.). The motor nerves carry commands from the brain to the muscles to control movement.

TASER technology uses similar electrical impulses to cause stimulation of the sensory and motor nerves. Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI) occurs when a device is able to cause involuntary stimulation of both the sensory nerves and the motor nerves. It is not dependent on pain and is effective on subjects with a high level of pain tolerance.

Apparently I was correct about how electrical signals could affect neural pathways.


The use of TASER technology causes incapacitation and strong muscle contractions making secondary injuries a possibility. These potential injuries include but are not limited to: cuts, bruises, impact injuries, and abrasions caused by falling, and strain-related injuries from strong muscle contractions such as muscle or tendon tears, or stress fractures.


So again I was correct about the possibility of muscular strain damages... but this next line made me laugh so hard, I had to post it here...

These injuries are secondary in nature and not directly attributable to the electric output of the TASER device


So what exactly are these injuries attributable to? The motion of Saturn?


TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by Xcathdra

What I find funny is there is no winning with most of you guys. The Cops are evil, bad, and corrupt no matter what, until something happens to smeone you know, and then it becomes we are inept, incompetant etc. At no point do I see anyone who complains about this becoming a cop themselves.


Oh that's just crazy. Cops can be both corrupt and incompetent.


I once toyed with the notion of becoming a cop. Decided it wasnt worth it after seeing what it did to friends and family. After college I was working briefly as an EMT and thought about it again. Too many douche cops at scenes killed the desire yet again.

Then while working with a private firearms training firm I finally decided once and for all to stay as far away from 'law enforcement' as possible given the nonsense I saw from these guys.

This was all in CT. Maybe CT picks really bad cops or trains some real intense idiocy into them at the academy or something but given the corruption and ineptitude I witnessed I have a learned distrust of them.

Dialing 911 is perhaps the absolute last thing I would ever do.

And firefighters, when I saw them do a vehicle extraction demo that would have left everyone in a 5 mile radius a paraplegic I learned they're just as useless yet harmful in their half-assed fumbling as cops.

Dont ever get into a car wreck in CT.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:53 PM
link   
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Yes by all means lets use stats from amnesty international and the United Nations. The coronor and ME conclusion have stated that only 4 are the singular cause of death. The other deaths they were listed as contributing cause. Just like alcohol is listed as a contributing cause of death for DWI.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 04:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Yeah.. its a torture device.. Just like Water is a torture dvice when used in a way its not intended. The saqme with cars, boats, planes, hatchets, rocks, piano wire, toothbrushes.. I can keep going if you want...

What exactly is your training and exposure to a Taser? Plese by all means educate me on how they work and their ffect on the body.


Sure anything can be a torture device, however each pull of the trigger makes Taser a bona fide electrocution torture device.


Huh? You should be the one to know... but you don't.
Here is the deal, you said voltage had nothing to with it..... Your wrong, period...If there is no voltage there is no amps... Really take a electronic course and stop reading Taser International junk.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 05:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra

Yes by all means lets use stats from amnesty international and the United Nations.

OK, you don't like Wikipedia, you don't like Amnesty International, you don't like the UN... how about a list of what sites you will accept as references so we can all save each other a lot of time?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how we can't rely on Taser either... , sorry but I used their site above...


TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 05:06 PM
link   
Alrighty.. I am heading out on a road trip to visit the parntal units. I will com back ands argue with you guys in a few hours when I get there.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 06:26 PM
link   
The title of your thread reminds me of that Simpson's joke where the old man says all the things that will get you a paddling.

Speaking the truth will get you tased,
Knowing your rights will get you tased,
Being tased will get you tased



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 06:43 PM
link   
All you have to do is to say your headed home to retrieve all of the money you were going to donate to the sheriffs reelection fund - they'll let you pass.

If those blue nazis think they can stop me from going home they better come with a bazooka to stop me.



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 06:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by SaturnFX


Its a interesting dilemma...your home is on fire...you should have every right to battle it...its your home, your property...at what point is it no longer your home and you must evacuate the premise?

I have no doubt the guy was doing some dangerous actions by trying to battle an inferno with a few drips...but, isn't it his (darwinian) right to defend his own property if he so chooses? He was warned, repeatedly, of the dangers and to please stop...

Whats the proper course of action...can a cop tase you for endangering yourself on your own property?

cbs3.com
(visit the link for the full news article)
yes he can
but he shouldnt be able to
or suffer the wright consequenses



posted on Sep, 8 2010 @ 07:35 PM
link   
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Is it not a STUPID tactic to stun 50,000 volt's to a victom securely holding onto a water (garden) hose when the muscle's in that chap's hand would automatically lock into a spasm and therefore risking not only electricution or possible death to the victom but also to the police officer.

I'm starting to wonder if authority these days means- You Job's More Important Than Your Initiative????



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 12:14 AM
link   
This clown actually took up for the cop. And I guess for the cops who don't carry stun guns, just shoot him the leg.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 01:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by Soshh
reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


Their job is to keep him alive.


No, their job is to enforce the law. Read all the court cases of police letting people die and not stepping up to protect them. They always win. Why? Because its not their duty, right, or job to protect you; their job is to enforce the law. I believe in my heart that most police officers aren't as cold as the ones brought to trial, but still, they are not bound by law to save you. Most law enforcement departments also swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the state (or commonwealth) and/or of the United States, that oath doesn't give them to right to pull a tazer on you just because you're being a dumbass. If that were the case then they'd taze all the stupid kids who re-enact episodes of jackass every weekend in their backyards. Judgment call or not, police need to exercise a little restraint and work on protecting that oath they swore to uphold.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 06:50 AM
link   
I'm reading alot of justification for tasers here.
That's all it is, justification.
If tasers are so harmless then we should all carry them, wait they tried something like that once, but with firearms.

E
_
IR

Tasers do have the potential to kill.
They arent the be all end all safe weapon, and they are a weapon, and yes they are drawn and used way to quickly and frequently.

Somehow getting qualified to use a taser, and being shot with one in front of your fellow officers seems more like a rite of passage and an opportunity to compare your cup size than an instruction on the retention of an individuals rights.

The removal of the barbs will tear holes.
The applied voltage, though consistant, does not allow for the variable conditions found once the target is engaged.
There are milliamps generated, and skin and tissue conductivity vary from event to event.
The amperage created can cross the path of the heart and can alter the heartbeat and in some cases induce heart failure.

www.osha.gov...

Bottom line,
All cops are not bad.
All cops are not good.
All cops are not intelligent.
All cops are not stupid.
Tasers are used way too quickly, way to frequently, in way to many unrequired scenarios, and way too many more incidents like this are on the way.



posted on Sep, 9 2010 @ 07:06 AM
link   
reply to post by Xcathdra
 





used as pain compliance.


What you said could be a definition for torture, don'tcha think?

Causing a person pain to force them to comply?



edit on 9-9-2010 by butcherguy because: Why? because I screwed up, that's why.




top topics



 
21
<< 2  3  4   >>

log in

join