Trying to save your home will get you tased

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by xxcalbier
just grabbing the guy you would all be yelling police brutality .

Torture by electrocution with 50,000 volts is also police brutality
..........................................................................................

Its not electrocution, nor is it police brutality when used correctly. Please learn what the tool does before commenting on it. It transmits on the same brain frequency that controls motor function. It overrides the signal, causing the muscles to expand/contract. Once the cycle ends there is no side effects from it.


The 50k volts has nothing to do with anything. The amps is what can kill you.

edit on 8-9-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

Question: What part of "No side effects" means that it feels good?

Torture is easily accomplished without physical side effects or scars. Does hurt like hell, and it have lasting psychological effects.

"Oh, nobody got killed, it is low amperage"

If I did it to you on the street, you would want to sue the pants off of me.

Originally posted by butcherguy

If I did it to you on the street, you would want to sue the pants off of me.

If he's a cop and you did it to him on the street a lawsuit would be the least of your concerns. We can have our synapses overridden all day long. Not the cops though. You'll get shot for that.

I wonder why death isnt considered a side-effect of the tool?

Taser ruled cause of death
Death by taser
Lawsuit highlights taser deaths

Nope. No side-effects. Totally harmless. Please taze some sense into me Mr. Officer. I'm clearly too stupid to live my own life the way I see fit. Taze me right massa. Taze me right.

Wonder if he would've waived legal recourse to the city if he suffered injury, if they still would've tased him? Or was it just some macho, powertripping cop thing?
IMO, futile gesture on the homeowners part, but Hell, if my pets were inside I probably would've done the same thing.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

I wonder why death isnt considered a side-effect of the tool?

Good point. Technically it is "electrocution" when the electrical current causes the persons heart to stop beating!

If they aren't dangerous, they should feel comfortable with everyone carrying them around, including in the US Congress or any Courthouse!

Originally posted by butcherguy

If they aren't dangerous, they should feel comfortable with everyone carrying them around, including the US Congress or any Courthouse!

That would make sense, wouldnt it?

But the reality is:

In CT

•Carrying of electronic defense weapon unless peace officer is punishable by fine of less than $500 or less than 3 years in prison or both (53-206);

In DC

•No person/organization may possess unless they hold a valid registration (7-2502.01)

In HI

•Electric guns are not to be possessed, sold, given, or delivered except to law enforcement (134.16)

In IL

•Cannot carry/possess with unlawful intent or concealed unless at home or principal place of business - handgun license required. (Apply for a FOID card) (5/24-1)

In IN

•Electric stun weapons and tasers are subject to different laws than stun guns; tasers subject to requirement of handgun license (35-47-8-4)

In MA

•No person shall sell or possess electrical weapons; punishable by fine between $500-1000 or 6mos-2yrs in prison or both

In MI

Device capable of electro-muscular disruption must contain identification and tracking system that is traceable to the purchaser through the manufacturer

•Permitted possession and use by a peace officer, employee of department of corrections authorized by director, local corrections officer authorized by county sheriff, probation officer, court officer, bail agent, license private investigator, or properly trained aircraft pilot or crew.

In NJ

•Any person who knowingly has in his possession any stun gun is guilty of a crime of the 4th degree (2C:39-3

In NY

•Possession is a Class A misdemeanor (265.01)

In ND

•Other than LE, cannot carry in concealed manner (62.1-04-02)

In PA

•Possession or use of electronic incapacitation device for unlawful purpose constitutes a 2nd degree felony with intent or 1st degree misdemeanor otherwise (908.1)

In RI

•No person shall carry or possess or attempt to use against another

In WI

•Selling, transporting, manufacturing or going armed with electric weapon is a Class H felony

So darn safe that taser. Most of these states restrict them tighter than they do firearms.

Taser laws by state

stun gun, taser they have got to be taken away from law enforcement, there using them first these days instead of any other means at their disposal, what was wrong with 2 of them just grabbing him and pulling him away from the blaze, if for any reason im ever in a position where a taser is used on me, i swear whom ever deploys it had better hope it kills me, if i get up from it i guarentee to disarm said person and give them more than a taste of their own medicine.

I'm almost dying of laughter.

All cops should have to taser themselves (Or be tasered) before they can actually go on the job. I think that woul help ALOT.

Originally posted by Doubleagent
I'm almost dying of laughter.

All cops should have to taser themselves (Or be tasered) before they can actually go on the job. I think that woul help ALOT.

funny you say that. because all police officers in the united states must be tasered, stun gunned, pepper sprayed before they can use them on duty. so they have all been taserd

reply to post by Doubleagent


Probably just make them mad and give them a desire to inflict the pain they felt/feel on others.

Like an emotionally immature sociopath.

As far as a Taser goes, it is not electrocution (although IU have heard medical use that term, and it annoys the piss out of me because they do not understand how the item works.). It does not affect the heart. You can tase a 90 year old man on a pace maker, and it would not affect his heart. In all of the investigations done where a Taser was deployed, and the end result was death, not one can state that it was the Taser that caused the death. During these autopsies they have found drugs in the system or toher issues thaqt were the cause of death.

You can find plenty of headlines that will state a person died after being hit with a taser, but what they fail to report is the results of the sutopsy, which rule out the Taser as the cause of death..

With that being said, they are classified in most states as less than leathal, not non leathal. Meaning the potential is there to cause death. The same can be said for Mace / OC, Batons, Bean Bsg rounds for shot guns etc. Other states outright do not allow civilians to carry them period. Some states classify the Taser as a Fire arm. Hell most law enforcement agencies will require an officer to have a duty weapon out to protect the officer who is using the Taser. Just like bullets, a Taser can fail as well.

If I were in uniform and someone was coming at me with a taser (pointing it at me) we are allowed to use deadly force to stop the threat. The rationale behind it, whether you agree with it or not, is if we are tased, we loose control over the items on our duty belts, including the gun. Most states have whats called a +1 advantage that is given to Law Enforcement (and yeah, im aware people are going to go bat crazy over this). It allows Law Enforcement to escalate a siutuation to one level higher than the force being used on them. mOur primary goal is to defuse the situation in the fastest way poissible that represents the least amount of force used (Supreme Court Rulings).
My question to you guys is this: If you were a cop, and someone was coming at you, pointing a taser at you, what would YOUR reaction be to that? Do you attempt to speak to the person to get them to stop? Replace Taser witha knife? What do? We used to have whats called a 21 foot rule for a subject armed with a knife, which has since been pushed back to 26 feet.

An officer standing from an individual at 26 feet armed with a knife. The knife weilding guy can close those 26 feet and get in 1-2 stabs before the officer can pull his duty weapon.

As far as the fire goes. The things people are not taking into account is this:

What caused the fire? Is it arson? Faulty wiring? Accidental? It becomes a criminal invesitagtion, and as such, is treated as a crime scene until either Law Enforcement or a Fire Marshall (usually the Fire marshall) determines the cause of the fire. Having the home owner run back in to "save" items could also be an attempt to have evidence tossed into the fire that might implicate him in a crime etc.

Again, I ask people to at least try to see our side of this. Its not as straight forward as many of you like to think it is. If the guy owns the house outright, and everything in it (meaning he owns it all, not credit card payments etc), and is in an area where there is no open burn ordinances, then he could contact the fire department to let them know he is going to burn his house down. The fire department will usually have people check in to make sure their is adequate safety precautions in place (water etc) on the off chance the fire spreads from the house to surrounding areas.

If the house or anything in it is still being paid on, then you are looking at potential arson or fraud by destroying items that dont legally belong to you just yet. Insurance Fraud also comes to mind when dealing with fires as well, whether it be a house, boat or car.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by DONNYxMC

Is the possibility that someone might sue you worth more than a life?

Is any amount of money worth more than freedom?

What price do you personally place on that freedom? And what happens when the desire to stay out of a potential lawsuit becomes an acceptable reason for imprisonment? Torture? Killing?

What price liberty?

Mine has no price.

TheRedneck

if that guy had of burned to death and the police or fire dept didnt stop him they would be accused of letting him die. and his family would have flipped out and sued the police.

they tasered him to prevent him from killing himself. they didnt infringe on his freedoms. this isnt about a police state of freedom. its about cops saving the life of a crazed man. you think he was in a good mental state when he was putting his HOME out?

the cops did what they had to do to save his life. they didnt effect his freedoms. the cops didnt just walk up and taser him for no reason.

did you guys even think about the fact that maybe he was also putting the lives of the firefighters in danger? he could have been in their way and prevented them from saving his house. or other people that could be burning in the fire.

this has nothing to do with him losing freedoms or police brutality. its easy to talk about something you didnt see from behind a keyboard.

Originally posted by badgrammaman
what was wrong with 2 of them just grabbing him and pulling him away from the blaze,

good point… if they wanted to get him safely away from the blaze tazing certainly wouldn’t be the best option knowing that he could spasm in any direction.

I couldn't read any more so if this was said, please don't tazer me.

The guy was not running in or even trying to get in, he was just standing there trying to do what he could, even if that was not much.

When you are helping people out of a fire situation before the FD shows up, and you get the people out safely, the FD should not treat you like you are a 2 year old, pushing you to the side, when they arrive on the scene. If a FD personnel would have walked next to the guy with one of the FD's hoses, the guy would likely have backed off.

If it was just a beat cop trying to assume control when it was obvious he wasn't prepared to help fight the fire in the man's home, he should have been more in control of the situation without using violence. That is all the police seem to understand, use violence.

I was sleeping in my car, bothering no one, when the police came tapping on the window. They threatened me with violence and all I asked is what crime have I committed. I was cuffed and hauled off for no reason, then released and had to find my own way back to my car, when they could not charge me with anything. This is the state the law enforcement is in. What is wrong with this picture? Is it guilty till proven innocent?

reply to post by Xcathdra


From my first link a couple of posts up

A Chicago medical examiner has ruled that shocks from a Taser were responsible for the death of a man in February, marking the first time that the electronic stun gun has been named as the primary cause of death.link

As a non cop the guy with the taser could conceivably take my firearm while convulsing on the street. I should shoot him just like you, right? Or I shouldnt even be armed in the first place as a mere non-cop?

Originally posted by DONNYxMC

Originally posted by Doubleagent
I'm almost dying of laughter.

All cops should have to taser themselves (Or be tasered) before they can actually go on the job. I think that woul help ALOT.

funny you say that. because all police officers in the united states must be tasered, stun gunned, pepper sprayed before they can use them on duty. so they have all been taserd

I can attest to this. I had to go through the training for all of it. THe one thing they dont make us do is put oin our bullet resistant vests and get shot. I had to go through the class, then get tasered as well as drive stunned before I could carry a Taser. By making us go through this, we know the affect it will have on people. We can testify in court to the effects the item causes.

Also.. A Taser is a 2 part item. The probes that deploy are what causes the motor control override. If a probe does not connect, we can follow up by touching the end of the taser to the individual to get the motor control override effect. If the probes fail completely, the end of the taser still arcs, and can be used as pain compliance.

Almost all OC uses has had their forumlaes changed to remove the oil compounds. There are instances where a person was sprayed, then tased. The tasing ignited the oil, with a human torch resulting from it.

Anyways yes, almost all law enforcement is required to go through these so we know what it does to a person, so we know what it does when we get sprayed or tased by a fellow officer (it happens in fights), so we can trestify in court to what these items do, and also in part to teach the officer not to use these items excessivly due to their results.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

From my first link a couple of posts up

A Chicago medical examiner has ruled that shocks from a Taser were responsible for the death of a man in February, marking the first time that the electronic stun gun has been named as the primary cause of death.link

As a non cop the guy with the taser could conceivably take my firearm while convulsing on the street. I should shoot him just like you, right? Or I shouldnt even be armed in the first place as a mere non-cop?

As a non cop you tend to have more leaway in using deadly force than I do, since I am held to a higher standard. If I were on the street with someone coming at me pointing a device at me, My weapon would be out and a challenged issued if there is time to ssafely do so. Deadly force encounters have been defined by Supreme Court rulings. Hind sight cannot be used to determine officer actions and response. The standard is what was the officer facing at the exact moment deadly force was used.

I have seen videos here people were pulled over, and for some reason got out of their car to hand the officer their wallett. At night, a person gets out of the car and walks towards the officer with something in their hand.

What would you do if you were the officer?

As far as the article goes I need to read it.. I am curious as to why its being lsited as cause of death. Gimme a few and I will repost here.

Originally posted by Jenna
If they'd done nothing and the guy had died in the fire, the city, the police department, and the fire department would likely all be facing lawsuits for not stopping him.

Your right. But those lawsuits would have been a lot more winnable than the one they're going to face when he sues the city because they stopped him from saving his house.

If I were the insurance company, I'd definitely lend a lawyer or two to the fellow's cause. It would be in my best interest to.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Its not electrocution, nor is it police brutality when used correctly. Please learn what the tool does before commenting on it. It transmits on the same brain frequency that controls motor function. It overrides the signal, causing the muscles to expand/contract. Once the cycle ends there is no side effects from it.


The 50k volts has nothing to do with anything. The amps is what can kill you.

edit on 8-9-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

My god!!! you better take a electronic course... Wow, this is what's wrong with people who carry tasers, their not educated...

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Intresting article to say the least. It is listed as a contributing factor, and not a sole cause, which is being challeneged. Only 4 cases have listed the Taser as the sole cause of death, and they are being challeneged.

As far as the Chicago incident, I noticed they said an initial shock of 5 seconds, followed up by a "57" second shock. Law Enfocrcement tasers only cycle for 5 beofre shutting down. THe only way to keep the cuycle going is the continually hold the trigger down, which re-cycles after 5 seconds.

Tasing someone for that long seems excessive to me, but I was not present and have no idea if there are other contributing factors for that length of time.I would like to see the police report to see what else happened, if the officer was by himself and waiting for backup etc.

Again, reading a news article does not always give you exactly what happened. Which in turn leads people to aoconclusion that might be incorrect. Any time we use force its totality of circumstances. What was going on at the exact moment it was used etc.

And I would liek to add, that I see a lot of people sounding off on Law Enforcements use of force. My question to you guys is this. If a cop tells you to stop, then why not stop? If you refuse to obey the command, you are technically resisting a lawful detention or arrest. If you feel you did nothing wrong, thats fine. Most of what we do is to rule out people when investigating crimes. I would say most of the actions taken are because people think they know what their rights are, and how the law works. In the end, this is not always the case, which means the incident was created by the person stopped because they are to damn stubborn to acknowledge that.

reply to post by imitator


Uhm yeah.. Go to Tasers website and check the schematics for both the M and X 26 Tasers. The voltaqge is not what kills a person, amperage is.

As far as the comment about the DWI issue, I really think you should learn how the law works and what you are allowed and not allowed to do, then get back to calling me names and making implications with no basis.. ok.