So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

Originally posted by camaro68ss

well i just telling you my belives. i will not force and say yours are wrong. I guess you can say im pro choice in a sence i dont care what you do with your body but i on the other hand think its wrong. and if it must be done i think it sould be in the first few weeks to a month rather then 8-9 months into it.

OK - but I don't think it is about belief - at all. Its about individual RIGHTS.

I've had many discussions on this subject. There are many who do not agree with abortion - - - but still support the right of the individual to choose.

I won't use the term Pro Abortion. Because I think its the wrong message. I honestly don't know anyone who is Pro Abortion. Pro Choice is Pro Choice - - - it is not Pro Abortion.

However - - knowing you have the right to make that decision - - for whatever reason - - is what its all about.

As no one should have the right to force an abortion - - - no one should have the right to force you to have an unwanted child. For whatever reason that child is not wanted.

And I know how difficult it is - - because I've been there.

Oops! Someone has the hiccups.

DP

[edit on 7-9-2010 by Annee]

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened


My current opinion? I say if you become pregnant, you should deliberate and come to a decision as quickly as possible as to whether you will keep the pregnancy. If you choose to abort, do it immediately, and don't burden yourself with guilt for destroying a few cells. If you choose not to abort, then commit to that decision and don't change your mind halfway through the pregnancy. The longer you wait, the more human the fetus becomes.

But I'm a male, so what do I know?

- -
Actually - I agree with that.

There are always variables - - but that would be my basic recommendation also.

And Yes - I did act immediately.

Myself I'd always been pro-choice. The truth is god does more aborting than any one, most conceptions are spontaneously aborted. Of course, being male, pro-choice is the comfortable stance. I have had cause to regret this attitude. My wife and I have had 3 healthy boys, but 5 succesful conceptions. The first one occured too soon for us, she opted to abort, and I supported her. She spent many a teary night struggling with regret and guilt, it was exhausting but she eventually got over it. Our 3 boys were conceived at exactly 88 month intervals there after. Things seemed to go ok, we both were getting older, and the time for having kids had passed for us and then she got pregnant again. She was frightened about down syndrome, and we already had a house full etc,. So she'd decided to abort again, once again I cowardly allowed her to take the weight of the decision. That was over 6 years ago, and sex has pretty much ended up as a thing of the past. I'm stupid for the girl and always will be I guess. Reproduction is a complicated thing, I'd recommend to any man to make anticonception their personal responsibility and make every effort to avoid accidental conceptions. While a woman may find an abortion justifiable, it can still do great harm to her psyche.

Originally posted by amodedoma
So she'd decided to abort again, once again I cowardly allowed her to take the weight of the decision. That was over 6 years ago, and sex has pretty much ended up as a thing of the past. . . . . . Reproduction is a complicated thing, I'd recommend to any man to make anti-conception their personal responsibility and make every effort to avoid accidental conceptions. While a woman may find an abortion justifiable, it can still do great harm to her psyche.

Great post. I don't think the abortion ended your sex life - - - I think most women lose interest in sex when their prime function of child bearing is coming to an end. Unfortunately for husbands - - I think it is a natural thing. Reproduction is definitely a complicated thing.

And Yes! Justifying abortion can be a difficult thing. I had two children to support and feed on my own - - I focused on the positive of providing for them.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened
ETA: Notice this post is about the ethical question of abortion. As for the political question, I could give a whole analysis on that too, but to me it's not as important because political debate among us powerless is all fap fap fap anyway, so I'll just leave it at saying I'm pro-choice.

Not that I disagree with your opinion, but abortion is more a legal issue than a political or moral one.

Many act as if their concept of morality should be reflected in the law. . . why else seek to change the law to conform to their moral stance? Especially since the Supreme Court has already ruled that it cannot. After all, the fact that abortion is legal doesn't actually affect them one bit, since they always could decide not to have one with no interference from anyone.

What they actually seek, it seems to me, is the right to mandate in law a woman *will* gestate an unwanted fetus for nine months then endure labor against her will. That's not a right any American is entitled to.

Originally posted by igor_ats
Not that I disagree with your opinion, but abortion is more a legal issue than a political or moral one.

Understandable, I mostly just don't think it matters because American democracy is a sham.

Even if it did, the political and ethical are closely related, as you mentioned. Except in the political case, it's helpful to establish black-and-white rules to avoid arbitrary decision-making. This has even been done in some respects by for example drawing a line for "late-term" abortions and applying different rules to them.

But at the end of the day, there's really no way to tell if someone's having an abortion, as it can be done at home (crudely). But once everybody's accepted a law, it's easy to push for invasions of privacy because of "enforcement difficulties". The libertarian in me says "eff that". I want less laws, not more.

I just don't think we need to make this political. Hence why I said pro-choice.

Plus I have a general distaste for debate on bureaucratic politics, anything involving details of which rules should exist and which shouldn't. I love broad political theory but debates on individual laws just feels like so much lawyering. I'd rather leave that to the lawyers, since they're gonna be deciding this stuff anyway whether we like it or not.

Hence why I don't really care to debate political details.

I had always been riding the fence on the pro-choice, pro-life debates, but after I read the book Freakonomics, I had to go with pro-choice.

There is a chapter there that talks about the impact of legalized abortion on crime and you can read their paper here

The summary is that the crime rate drop is not accounted for by more police or longer jail sentences, but by making abortion legal and accessible to those mothers who, unfortunately, live in a world full of crime. By not bringing those babies into a "ghetto" life, those babies did not have to succumb to a life of crime.

I am pro-choice because of this reason and others. Others being extenuating circumstances, such as the mother's failing health, rape, ect.

I know some might say that there have been great individuals who "rose out of the ghetto" to do something great with their lives. But I have to wonder how many of those "good" kids are born in ratio to how many kids are born that are, in a poor choice of words, born criminals. We certainly don't know now, but do we really want to guess, if that ratio is something like 1:50?

Personally, I'm pro-life. I don't see "human error" a good reason to kill off future offspring. Having sex comes with it's own risks, STD's and pregnancy. You know this before you even consent to having it, and if you are capable of turning on a tv and watching any tv show/soap/program, you know about the options out there for what to do if your immediate bc fails. For example, if the condom broke or you forgot to take your pill... then there are things a woman can do in the next 24 hours to make sure she doesn't end up pregnant. I'm sure you've heard of emergency contraceptives? I've yet to hear a case of a woman who took those and still ended up pregnant.... I'm sure it's possible, but seriously what are the odds? Even if by some miracle you end up in that small number of people who exhausted all contraceptive possibilities and they all have failed, you as a consenting adult (and this counts teens, who are taught from 10 years old and older about sex and the causes of pregnancy), you are aware that this action can lead to pregnancy. By consenting, you are taking responsibility to allow your body as a home for another human being for the next 9 months. After that, there are millions of loving homes that would gladly take your child in and make sure he/she gets whatever they want and would be treated like the gift they are. How can you be so selfish to deny another HUMAN BEING the right to make their own way in the world.

Most women who weren't "date rape drugged", can get a hold of emergency contraceptives, even if they aren't ready to deal with the fact they are raped. Planned Parenthood Clinics give them out like candy with little questions asked.

I always wonder what people mean when they say "In cases of incest". I can only assume it is geared to minors aged in the early teens... cause if you are 20 and having sex with dad... i don't think you should have a right to cry incest when you come up preggers.... but that's just me.

Oh, and I absolutely positively HATE it when a guy says, "It's not my choice because I can't get pregnant." It's your DNA, and your participating in the sexual act that created this life. Don't take the easy way out when asked about abortion. It is your choice to have sex or not. Sex is a two person act, after all. It's not something a person should do for pleasure alone... they make toys for that kind of thing, if that's what you want.

Very perplexing discussion there are many different view points. I am pro life but I am a male and has never had to make this monumental decision.

I have noticed in this argument that the word baby and fetus are used, (non personal), replace this with Suzy or John. It is easier to say terminating a pregnancy than to say terminating Suzy. How much harder would it be to say it's okay to abort John.

reply to post by JessicaS


You seem to be making the assumption that my "I don't feel comfortable telling a woman what to do with her body" somehow suggests that I've relied upon abortion as a method of birth control.

To the best of my knowledge I have never caused a pregnancy that led to an abortion.

So, no, stating that a womans body is her business and not mine is not a method of avoiding responsibility.

reply to post by JessicaS

I totally understand where you are coming from and just felt I should clarify a bit.

For me, it's not so much 'not my choice because its not my body' as much as 'it's not my body, so what right do I have to tell you what to do with it'

I am pro-abortion because I know that if it were outlawed, middle and upper class women would still be able to get them, just as they did in the past, while poor and working class women would be back to the coat hanger type of abortionists. That's how it was in the past. Women with money and connections could always find doctors to provide abortions.

Plus, I think if we got rid of abortion, there would be a lot more crime, alcoholism, child abuse, drug addiction and general social pathology, because we would have more unwanted children growing up unwanted, in dysfunctional conditions.

[edit on 8-9-2010 by witness63]

Originally posted by TokiTheDestroyer
So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

False dichotomy, apart from any resident sociopaths, we are all pro life here.

However, some of us pro-lifers realise that making abortion illegal causes more harm than letting women have the freedom to choose.
And some of us have even been in the sad situation where having an abortion was the lesser of two evils.


By the way, know how you can tell a patient seeking an abortion is Anti-choice?
She sneaks in through the back door.

Pro choice I guess~

I don't really care what women do with their own bodies, although if it were me I like to think I would keep it but who knows what I would really do in that situation.

Originally posted by JessicaS
Personally, I'm pro-life. I don't see "human error" a good reason to kill off future offspring. Having sex comes with it's own risks, STD's and pregnancy. You know this before you even consent to having it, and if you are capable of turning on a tv and watching any tv show/soap/program, you know about the options out there for what to do if your immediate bc fails. For example, if the condom broke or you forgot to take your pill... then there are things a woman can do in the next 24 hours to make sure she doesn't end up pregnant. I'm sure you've heard of emergency contraceptives? I've yet to hear a case of a woman who took those and still ended up pregnant.... I'm sure it's possible, but seriously what are the odds? Even if by some miracle you end up in that small number of people who exhausted all contraceptive possibilities and they all have failed, you as a consenting adult (and this counts teens, who are taught from 10 years old and older about sex and the causes of pregnancy), you are aware that this action can lead to pregnancy. By consenting, you are taking responsibility to allow your body as a home for another human being for the next 9 months. After that, there are millions of loving homes that would gladly take your child in and make sure he/she gets whatever they want and would be treated like the gift they are. How can you be so selfish to deny another HUMAN BEING the right to make their own way in the world.

the problem in your argument is sex education and who has enough access to it with accurate information
Most of the women who either not aware of emergency contraceptives or have no access to any, or worse, are too ashamed or embarrassed to ask for it are likely to have an abortion, either legally or illegally.
Studies have shown that more educated women are less likely to get pregnant, therefore less likely to have an abortion because they know safe sex and emergency contraceptives. If more women (and men) were educated, the abortion rate would go down, crime would stay down.

Pro-death. Dash those unborn babies to the ground, and execute random prisoners for fun. Mwahahaha! Mwahahahahahaha!

I am both. My own "choice" is life. Coming from a position of faith, I am perplexed why a believer would think that God would not, or could not, intervene. "not even a sparrow falls..." It is so true. Working in dog rescue has strengthened my belief in this so much.
We all- mankind or animal, have a purpose on this earth & in our lives. We are all Blessed.
Have peace.

I look at this issues this way if my wife was pregnant and some thug shot her in the stomach and killed the baby would it not be murder?



If you answer yes but are pro abortion you really need to soul search a little.


Abortion=murder and not because of any religious beliefs.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth

I look at this issues this way if my wife was pregnant and some thug shot her in the stomach and killed the baby would it not be murder?

This comparison doesn't work at all for me.

A woman who makes a personal and informed decision to terminate her pregnancy is not a victim of an unwanted procedure or assault.

Would you call a tonsilectomy a "throat slitting"?