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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Brood
That's not intelligence. That's fecal matter.
All things have the 100% potential to die, so under your logic all things might as well be put to death.
We are dealing with specifics. if things that have the potential to become intelligent don't have the right to exist, than murder is a-o-k up to age 5.
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
But, what about a bird's eye view here? Not to derail the "vote" / debate, but after all this voting, after all these strong opinions, what does this issue do "to" or "for" society? Seems like some posts have just barely touched on this so far. Or, maybe we could ask, what has abortion done so far, since it became widely legal?
I don't know, I'd sort of like to hear from a "sociologist" finally, since the armchair psychologists, philosophers, biologists and theologians have already been heard.
I prefer psychological definition of consciousness. See above. Even the one you have me earlier is good:
By this definition, the separation line between conscious and uncoscious system is located between biological and philosophical definitions separation lines (uder philosophical, above biological) - single celled organisms like bacteria colonies, or simple vegetative multicellular organisms (embryo) are uncoscious, whereas higher organisms with sufficiently advanced neural networks (or analogous structures, eventually) to meet the above points are conscious (higher animals, fetuses with brain waves in telencephalon, babies, humans..).
He clearly worries about his software primarily, as do all geth. Thats why he is trying to beam out. He would not be trying to beam out if the software was not important. Hardware is just another material resource for geth, its the information encoded in their neural networks that defines geth. Just like the information encoded in human neural networks is what defines sentient human being, and our bodies, cells, genome is nothing more than potentialy replaceable hardware.
Originally posted by Truth_Hz
reply to post by snowen20
In a loving relationship yes..
but what about those conceived in violent relationships, rapes, accidental pregnancies.
Not every pregnancy is planned...
As I have stated in another thread, abortion should not be advocated as a replacement to contraception but circumstances dictate necessity.
Hence I am Pro-choice
I'm arguing that potential has absolutely nothing to do with current identity. You could not be more wrong here. If a fuzzy caterpillar (which can have poisonous bites, symbolizing the complications that come with pergnancy and children that could ruin the mother's/other children's lives) lands on your hand, do you not fling it off as quickly as possible? Now, if it were a monarch butterfly, what would your reaction be? Potential does not define an identity.
Education =/= Intelligence; there is a huge difference between knowledge and intelligence. Newborns are extremely intelligent in their innocence, and I believe they are more mature about it than many of us adults; sad but true. If someone presents an idea to a child that they can prove (with the standard a=b, b=c, therefore a=c argument diagram) the child accepts it as fact because they realize that the people who are telling it to them are more experienced with the subject; many adults argue against facts like these regularly. If someone does not prove it to children, they are hesitant, but still at least somewhat believe them because they are more experienced and educated on the subject, many adults argue against facts like these that they do not have a chance of fully understanding, and in that fear of misunderstanding, create opposing "opinions" that are arguing against facts. Unfortunately us adults like to mangle our preconceptions and ignorance to form ideas against people who otherwise know that they are telling full truths, we simply don't want to believe them because us, as adults, don't want to be educated because somehow it affects our ego; we don't want to learn, we just want to be right. In this way, children, in all their innocence, are much more intelligent than many of us adults.
Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by Truth_Hz
Often times I have seen those who have aborted feel a great deal of regret that follows them for life, this is not the sign of a murderer.
Higher functions? The intelligence is barely noticeable. You are talking about something that has as much brain power as a common mammal.
You are still arguing on the potential of those brain cells to organize and become consciousness. And that is dependent upon the first cell continuing to differentiate.
Psychology is in itself a homo-centralist subjective topic because it only deals with the ideal human adult brain, not the chances of many other things.
Crows certainly do not display abstract thought. They have no artistic ability. They don't even have the part of the brain that we have to make us intelligent. And yet they are as smart as apes.
I think you really have to rethink the homo-centralist viewpoint of what is worthy and not. It's dangerously subjective. Not objective.
Again, homo-centralist.What defines intelligence? The human adult brain? Are we the be all and end all? Like I said, there are species with more neurons that have less intelligence than us. Under Physiology they deserve more rights for more brain function.
It's just the same with a human with faith in an afterlife. They value the soul more yes, but in terms of the physical tangible world, the primary concern is the hardware. The soul is just taped on.
When traumatic brain injury occurs and a person't consciousness restarts itself. We don't care about the consciousness anymore. We care about the flesh. keeping it hardware so that the new consciousness can get back into the world.
Consciousness, soul, physiology and the lot are all subjective sciences and beliefs. They are not objective facts. The objective fact is that a human is defined by their genes, not their consciousness. That starts at conception. If the consciousness is lost, we start over. Maybe we mourn a little, but not nearly as much as when physical death occurs.
Yea, no. Babies are retarded. Quite literally. See the difference between retarded and uneducated is that an uneducated person can learn, a retarded person cannot. A child is incapable of knowing certain things up to a certain age. IE, babies are retarded.
...do you still think abortion is just a small problem that can be ignored?
Thirty million bictcles, school, employed teachers, and eventually taxpayers to pay for health care.