Petraeus: Burning Quran Endangers Troops

So, to wear off terrorists, you become one by burning an Islamic book, uh?

Intelligent, mature and non-extremist, I say.

There goes the neighbourhood.

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

Can I point out one observation? You might see it as minor, but "those Muslims" are your fellow citizens. Born and raised in the United States, like you. Doesn't the constitution, give them the right to freedom of religion or assembly?

By the attitudes being represented on ATS, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of American members want their Muslims citizens to wear black coats and stitch little yellow crescent moon on them

Yes, that is a Nazi reference because, after all, the Nazi's started off by burning books too.

I'm fully aware of this fact. This is America and they are Americans now. So now that Muslims live here all of the sudden they are off limits from getting their book burned? We are supposed to conform and appease them like they are better than everyone else? Are they immune to freedom of expression from those who appose them in a lawful fashion ? NO!

Here in America we burn our own flag, hell we burn the Bible on Sunday on the courthouse steps. Granted it sucks and not everyone agrees with it, its still one of the freedoms we enjoy here in this great country. They are not special or above any other religion no matter what they think.

It makes me mad to no end when I see a flag get burned but I do realize that that is what makes our country great. We have the freedom to express ourselves. The argument about if its morally right or polite means nothing to me.

This new hypersensitivity toward Muslims is bull. Their religion can learn to take the heat just like all others here in this country.

Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.

,Ghostbusters2

Same thing applies. Its his God-given right to to burn any book he wants.

reply to post by Digital_Reality


Have you considered that what you are advocating is simply everyone aspiring towrads and learning to accept and be a part of and promote the lowest common denominator, and to embrace destructive forms of behavior.

I can see too, how it would offend someone to have their symbol of nation burned, or a efigee of a political leader hung or burned, or a Bible burned, yet wouldn't it make better sense to denounce those acts too, and sieze upon an opportunity to aspire to the highest possible common denominator instead of just giving in to anger, and telling people to in essence suck it up and get over it.

I would contend people taking this position haven't gotten over seeing something important to them like a flag being burned, or a bible being burned, so why approach it as a two wrongs make a right falacy, or hide it behind rights, when you could instead use it as platform to encourgage others to not do what you feel is disrespectful, versus simply encouraging and condoning something you have a fair certainty of knowing some other group is going to view as equally disrespectful.

In this world you can be part of the problem or part of the solution, and no, I don't think promoting the same kind of behavior that offends you in relation to what you hold near and dear, to do the same to others and the things they hold near and dear, is a solution, but simply a cyclical way of perpetuating the problem, and giving into the lowest common denominator and becoming and being the very thing you don't respect in others.

When you take the emotions and fears out of the arguments, the details of what is being burned and who it means what to, and just look at the act itself, then yes, I believe we can all agree in theory, that defacing symbols that hold importance to a group, really is just an antagonistic and destructive thing to do.

Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Do you want to be part of the lowest common denomonitor or part of the highest.

Does it really matter what example helps people learn this lesson, is it only valid if they learn it, over a flag? Your flag? Is it only valid of they learn it over a book? Your book, or can the lesson be learned through and by any symbol people hold near and dear?

Fire burns and if you have to stick your hand in a stove top, or a camp fire, which is a completely different kind of fire, or in a burning stack of Qurans, you still walk away with the same lesson and knowledge, fire burns.

People might not realize that they are in fact attempting to teach sticking your hand in a fire, because someone else did too.

Rather than teaching not to stick your hand in a fire, because too many people do it and they get hurt.

Think about it.

The particulars aren't as important as the real lesson any and all of us can learn about mutual respect.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I get it. True freedom always offends someone. Either you do or you don't believe in the right to free speech/expression. There is no kinda..

All I know is we have been pounded with the horrors of Muslim extremism for the last 10+ years and now all of the sudden they don't have to go through metal detectors, they can build a temple where an innocent civilian did a face-plant out of a window after Muslim extremist flew a plane into the building, we cant show any representation of Mohammad on TV, we are not allowed to appose or dislike their religion openly in any way because its somehow out of bounds.

How do you expect people to react?

Thousands died in 911 and countless more overseas. The word Muslim extremist is almost always followed by the word suicide bomber or car bomb on the news every day. And now we are supposed to welcome this cloture with open arms.

Its like all bets are off now that Muslims are unhappy. Screw that, they can go back home if they don't like the rules.
If you come into my house and try to tell me what to say or how to act your ass will get ejected to the curb. My house my rules. Americas house Americas rules. Don't use the poor humble Muslim approach with me. They are a religion of violence. Cant convert then KILL! That is what they believe.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.), 2:191-2 Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

Troops will be in danger while in battle? You don't say ... Don't want them to be in danger, BRING THEM HOME!

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I get it. True freedom always offends someone. Either you do or you don't believe in the right to free speech/expression. There is no kinda..

Oh I absolutely believe in the right to free speech, including how we can all challenge ourselves to learn and do better, as opposed to embracing doing the very things that offend us when others needlessly do things that offend us.

When acts of expression end in destruction whether it's a flag, a book or other symbol it simply begets more destruction.

When people stopped worshipping the Pharoahs they didn't destroy the pyramids, they just left them behind. They moved on.

When it comes to the age of the planet and the universe itself, these things that people place so much external importance in, are but flashes in the pan of time.

Most of our evolution, which has arguably been slow has actually been born of fire, war, destroying the old and through that chaos something new arises. It really will likely be no different with these three religions, and our current nations, yet it could be.

We don't all have to get stuck on stupid and negativity because there are some negative people in the world who are stuck on stupid and negativity. We don't have to out stupid them, and we don't have to out negative them, and we don't have to fight fire with fire, when water, or sand, do the trick.

Yes I grant you what you are in theory advocating is more people stuck on stupid and negative have to learn to let things flow over them like water off of a ducks back.

Do we really have to resort to stupidity and negative destructive acts to convince them of that, and sink down to that level?

That's all I am saying, and if we do, how in fact could we possibly be displaying their own tactics are inferior when we embrace those same tactics to fight against them.

It's really not deminishing them in my humble opinion it's deminishing us.

We lost the war on terror, simply by virtue of responding to it with so much fear. The whole point of using terror as a weapon is to frighten people. Terrorizing them back through similiarly or more frightening things is really just reinforcing that behavoir and extolling them to get better at it, as we become the very same thing we are fighting against.

We aren't cornered and are backs aren't up against the wall, we don't need to resort to things that are really going to deminish us more than those we are seeking to offend or prove a point to.

We don't really need to employ the very same tactics that we decry in others unless of course we want to be just like the others we dissaproved with to begin.

I don't want to be like that.

Somewhere somehow, someone has to break the cycle, does it really matter what the specific issue is when people finally become smart enough to do that.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Blahh blahh blahh, we are both dogs and the fleas come with the dog.

Our founders knew full well what freedom of speech would entail. The good and the bad. Freedom is freedom regardless if it hurts your feelings.

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Blahh blahh blahh, we are both dogs and the fleas come with the dog.

Our founders knew full well what freedom of speech would entail. The good and the bad. Freedom is freedom regardless if it hurts your feelings.

Hey that's an intelligent debate blah, blah, blah!

Fear is fear no matter how afraid you are to say you are driven by it.

I don't fear books, so I don't need to burn them, I don't fear flags so I don't need to burn them, I don't fear the police or the military so I don't need to burn their uniforms.

I don't need to prove to someone I am not scared of them by doing something that in essence would make them afraid of me, or admit my fear of them.

Yes you have the freedom to be insecure, the freedom to be afraid, the freedom to want to try to intimidate others, but the reality is that is all such actions which are simply expressions of speach, very similiar to blah, blah says one has nothing intelligent to counter salient points.

You have the freedom to be ignorant, and to promote ignorance, here on ATS some of us try to deny ignorance, not by embracing the ignorant things others do, but discussing better alternatives.

The prison such people are trapped in is entirely of their own making, that's why they can't get out of it, looking to place the blame on others.

The best revenge is living well, and I would submit those engaged in destructive and hateful agendas are doing anything but.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Look, I don't like the preacher and I think he is a total kook. What I do like is the fact that he can express his frustration without fear in this country. If we uphold freedom for the righteous we have to uphold it for the wicked also.

Thats all that matters here. The god-given right to free speech and expression. Every thing else your saying is beside the point. This is the true test of freedom. Will we let it be practiced by everyone regardless of their beliefs or will we suppress those we don't agree with (which is the opposite of being free). You seem to not be able to grasp the concept fully. You are going off into rants about everybody loving one another and being all nice and doing the right things when all of that is just your FEELINGS.

Will you stand for freedom even when it is a crazy kook exercising his right as you would a righteous person? If not, you are not for freedom or you are a hypocrite.

I honestly understand what your saying man. I truly do. Ive voiced my opinion for pages on here about the flag being burned until I calmed down and took the time to get the big picture.

If we pass on this God-given right this time what will it take to make us pass on our freedom next time? Another bomb threat? Another plane hijacking? Better yet what lengths would you go to to protect your freedom?

reply to post by Digital_Reality


If you really imagine a fringe radical pastor burning Qurans is some how the same as stopping a bomb attack that is an amazing tie in.

While you are busy worried that not burning Qurans emboldens Islam in some way, what you are in fact not doing is focusing on real problems, like the economy, like unemployment, like corruption in our own government.

The real things that really are affecting the quality of your life are in fact being neglected by the drama of emotional thinkers who somehow imagine burning a Quran some how protects something or promotes something.

It does neither. It simply compounds a cycle of action and reaction, action and reaction, meant to distract people with emotion and anger, so they don't actually focus on the things that really are a threat to them.

People who have no jobs and no prospects of finding one, are engaging in more criminal acts to feed themselves and their families than radical Islamists are trying to hurt Americans.

Narco terrorists battling over lucrative turf are killing more Americans than Islamic ones. Much of this too is driven by poor economic conditions.

I gaurantee you there are members right now on ATS who have no job, and would like to find one, who are instead sitting here this afternoon making posts like this.

What are they doing? Venting fears and frustrations on what is becoming a rapidly incresing politically correct scapegoat.

Like I said, yes the right to free speech gives anyone the right to say and express stupid things, but they are still stupid things, and if they are counter productive and destructive things, they are counter productive and destructive things.

The 19 alleged people who carried out 9-11 in fact died in the planes. Whether they were Muslim Extremists, Mossad or CIA agents, Black Water XE operatives, or the Spice Girls does not matter, they are dead.

Punishing other people for their crimes is no different than terrorists who want to hurt innocent people for things that offended or hurt them.

It's all fear for the sake of fear.

Cabin Cockpit Doors have since been sealed making it impossible for anyone whether it's DB Cooper using a plane to get away with a robbery, or some Cuban insisting the plane fly to Havana, or some disgruntled ex-airline employee flying a plane straight into the ground, or Extreme Radicals or Intelligence Operatives flying planes into buildings a thing of the past.

People who imagine Islam is a threat to their safety and security are doing just that, imagining it, millions of Muslim Americans live peaceably amongst us. Millions of Americans travel in and out of Muslim Countries every year with no problem, and no injury.

Burning a Quran is not going to do anything but convince Muslims and non-Muslims alike that you are an over reactionary extremist just like when you see some one burn a flag.

I don't live my life in fear, and I don't hold people who had nothing to do with a circumstance or event to account for it.

The only one who would suffer for that is me.

I am a not a masochist what can I say, nor would I ever pretend to imagine burning some religious groups book is going to protect me from an imaginary bomb attack, or prove anything to them, other than I would rather destroy things than create things.

That I would rather be an enemy than a friend.

This is exactly how it started out in Nazi Germany my friend, with the Jews, unreasonable fears, given life, by people insisting their fears are so real, that it requires negative and hateful acts aimed at a whole group wholesale.

That really is not what being American is about.

The Northern Alliance in Afghanistan had been fighting and winning and making headway in getting the Taliban out of power, isn't it funny that the day before 9-11 it's leader who refused to take help from the CIA was assissinated by men posing as a camera crew and reporters.

Most of the Muslim world doesn't like religious extremists either, El Queda is largely dead today, because most Muslims want a secular existence and not to live under harsh Sharia/Religious Law.

They are appalled at what extremists have done in Indonesia and Afghanistan and don't want to be victims to such radical fundamentalists either.

The problem with most of the people enflaming this situation is they get their news from people like this pastor instead of credible news sources and intelligence sources.

They buy into the pure fabrications that are clearly designed to promote another kind of religious fundamentalism and to terrorize people through fear.

They create fear by trying to perpetuate an endless cycle of action and reaction.

It's retarded man, it truly is.

This isn't about freedom of speech, it's about freedom to be a hateful jerk, and piss people off.

Yeah they have a right to do it, but defending their right to do it, and encouraging them to do it are two different things.

This isn't about freedom of speech, it's about freedom to be a hateful jerk, and piss people off.

Which he has a right to do. However disgusting or vile you may think it is.

Here put me on the news then
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7053ee4a2152.jpg[/atsimg]

There I burned one, and the world doesn't care

its my freedom of speech

it's no worse than American Psyop Troops burning koran's and playing christian music during muslim prayers in Afghanistan. you can see those videos on apacheclips.com (requires free registration)

in the clip on apacheclips, american psyops troops setup loudspeakers outside this muslim town and during prayer times they blast christian gospel music and preachings from like Rod Parsley or whatever preacher they may have. they also taunt them by ripping and burning koran's to try and taunt the enemy into attacking them.

so I support this guy if he wants to burn a koran then let him I burnt mine. So there we go.

reply to post by Cito


I highly doubt American troops are doing that in Afghanistan. It would not only be in violation of the Afghani Constitution we are trying to get to take hold, but just radicalize more people towards El Queda.

Your post basically says you want Afghani's to attack American forces? Why is that?

Do you have something against our troops?

Do you have something against Americans?

I notice you don't have a video of you burning the Quran you claim to have burnt? Were you afraid to make one? Afraid to show your face in such a video?

Or are you just making it all up?

Proof please for all the above, and if you can't provide it here, then you have none.

Thanks.

www.youtube.com...
shows some of the psyops

but the one I mentioned above is on apacheclips.com... you have to register to see it cause it's closed system but registration is free

apacheclips is where troops can upload video they take personall on their cellphones a lot of is is illegal and us govt tries to get them deleted. But one vid in particular from psyops is the playing of christian gospel music and christian sermons over loudspeaker during muslim prayer. And calling them dogs and names such as that.

videos like that litter apacheclips.com

its lot more graphics than stuff on liveleak cause liveleak refuses to host it cause they've been threatened many times by govt to pull videos such as those.

but apacheclips.com hosts many of them

reply to post by Cito


How do we know though that these are genuine occurences happening in Afghanistan, they could be shot by amatuer film makers or other intelligence agencies looking to inflame tensions and then promoted as genuine just because someone is claiming they are genuine.

How could we expect the Muslims in the Afghani Government to partner with us if we were engaging in acts that are in violation of it's own constitution?

How would doing that cause civilians to believe that our troops provide a better level of security and respect for the human individual than the Taliban does?

What led you to visit these sites to look for these things.

Clearly someone would have to have some kind of agenda to do that?

What's your agenda?

Proto, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now. I apologize if I've missed this in your thread, but I didn't see it.

The person I'd like to interview in this matter is the postman for this preacher's home and the church addresses. This guy may just be smarter than most are giving him credit for. I'd be willing to bet his mailboxes have been full of donations from many angry Americans, who did support his plans.

Purely speculation, but it works for Al and Jesse!

Originally posted by WTFover
Proto, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now. I apologize if I've missed this in your thread, but I didn't see it.

The person I'd like to interview in this matter is the postman for this preacher's home and the church addresses. This guy may just be smarter than most are giving him credit for. I'd be willing to bet his mailboxes have been full of donations from many angry Americans, who did support his plans.

Purely speculation, but it works for Al and Jesse!

Oh one more thing, if you don't mind Sir, I know your very busy and this won't take but a minute. Mrs. Columbo was out shopping for new furniture, the wooden kind, you see we have cats, and it sticks to the upholstery. The hair that is not the cat's Sir, I didn't mean to imply the cat's stick to the furniture. And then it dawned on me, Sir your Church isn't just a Church, over half of it's space is dedicated to making wood furniture!

I said how can this be, so I pulled the records and found out that the IRS is billing you for a lot of money Sir, a lot of Money, way more than a Detective like me makes on a city salary.

So I did some more digging and found out you had lost a good portion of your church's tax exempt status because you are running a for profit business out of the same building.

I looked you up on the Internet Sir, well your church that is, and it turns out you sell all kinds of Islam is the Devil Merchandise, coffee cups, pencil holders, T-shirts.

So I did some more checking sir, and found out you make most of these things in your church, that's how you lost most of your Tax Exempt Status.

It's how you got so in debt to the IRS!

Boy the IRS Sir, even I don't like to play around with them, and I am a police detective.

So it occured to me, YOU WERE WILLING TO START A WAR and endanger innocent lives just to make a buck!

(The above all happens to be true, except for the fact that Mrs. Columbo does not favor wooden furniture)

Excellent question my friend! Thanks for asking it.

Originally posted by Digital_Reality

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

Can I point out one observation? You might see it as minor, but "those Muslims" are your fellow citizens. Born and raised in the United States, like you. Doesn't the constitution, give them the right to freedom of religion or assembly?

By the attitudes being represented on ATS, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of American members want their Muslims citizens to wear black coats and stitch little yellow crescent moon on them

Yes, that is a Nazi reference because, after all, the Nazi's started off by burning books too.

I'm fully aware of this fact. This is America and they are Americans now. So now that Muslims live here all of the sudden they are off limits from getting their book burned? We are supposed to conform and appease them like they are better than everyone else? Are they immune to freedom of expression from those who appose them in a lawful fashion ? NO!

Take into account that these action would be acted on overseas. And their telling us that Islam is not a monolith.

as the saying goes

'burn baby burn'

Seems it may not be over after all. He now says it was postponed and not cancelled. He feels th muslims lied to him about moving the mosque.....wanna bet if he goes ahead the federal government does step in and stop him, by force if neccesary.


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