Did Jesus really exist?

Originally posted by frozenspark
Did Jesus really exist?
What do ATSers think about this subject?

I think there has been a positive ripple effect, detailed below....so yes I think he did (does) exist...

Let's think about things if he hadn't...hmm…..A world with out Jesus? How would slaves fair? Not Good! Yes, it’s true we Christians allowed slavery in the American past. This was an erroneous belief. Please see (Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10) for the biblical condemnation of slavery. Christianity lifted the roles of those oppressed, by accepting women and slaves as full members. Historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the catalyst for ending of the international slave trade (which happened before to the Civil War). Did you know that 2/3’s of the members of the American abolition in 1835 were Christians.

How would women fair? Not Good! For many ancient cultures a wife was property of the spouse. Even Aristotle said a women was somewhere between a man and a slave. Read Reasons for God by Tim Keller…"It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitiation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. Also in India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. The gospel spreaders/missionaries saw to it this practice stopped.

What about the Gladiator competition? It may still be going on…Telemachus, an early Christian is recognized as the one who stopped this barbaric practice. What about cannibalism? Yep, alive and well is some countries…before Christian Missionaries, helped primitives grow up.

Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.

How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.

What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.

Many of the fine Ivy League Schools used to be Bible Colleges…to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. With the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation…many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.

To require education for the masses in America was first passed by the Puritans. "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.

Remember before Madelyn Marie O’hare, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. This was so prevalent in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.

Most of the first 123 colleges in America were Christian institutions. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: “Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life.” Who wouldathoughtit?

What about the arts? Non-existent! The Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc. Music? No! There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, signed all his work "Solely to the glory of God". Architecture? Boring! No glorious….cathedral!

What about freedom? Government of the People? Nope! For one, America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. Remember the Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture…we used to be taught that in public school history! Also 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were Christians. Also, the truth of the sin nature played a role in the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system. Also the 10 commandments Helped form the idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man…this traces back to the Old Testament, and the Ten Commandments. And what about the idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence? This is certainly a biblical doctrine. Also, the sovereign authority of God (in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical. Also, The Declaration of Independence—speaks of, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator. Remember John Adams emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10.

Free Enterprise and the "Protestant work ethic?” Nope! We have two chooses…biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is servanthood--a Jesus teaching, right?. Evolutionary capitalism relies solely on survival of the fittest. Communism, too is an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good…thus we have ‘the common good’ ???

reply to post by frozenspark


Frozenspark, the issue “was that NO contemporary historian recorded anything about Jesus” but why there's no abundant information about him in the secular world?

The fact is, there are records of him and these (however small) establishes his existence.

Note:

Back then the small group of Christians were considered a sect, not part of the mainstream religion so it is to be expected that their popularity amongst their contemporaries to be very small. But Jesus' existence never depended on the secular world - what they will say or will not say about him because his very existence was to be documented in a book that will survive age and time itself. That book is the Bible.

But as you've already noted in your OP when Rome burned to the ground it also confirmed the historicity of Jesus.

Note again, Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote that the Roman emperor Nero ‘fastened the guilt for the burning of Rome on Christians,’ and then Tacitus explained:

“The name [Christian] is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.”

Here's another:

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also made mention of Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote in Antiquities of the Jews regarding the death of the Christian disciple James. Josephus said in explanation that James was

“the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

Of course deniers will question these writings and they will insist that they are mistaken, misinterpreted, made up stories or whatever reason they will use to disprove the existence of Jesus. But in so doing they also deny the authenticity of ALL of the people who believed in Jesus Christ's existence.

Note this statement made in the New Encyclopædia Britannica:

“These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

.

Think about this for a moment – if Jesus Christ did not exist, where did the first century Christians based their belief from? If it was based on a non-existing person would you not expect the “opponents of Christianity” to mount a vigorous dispute even ridicule of the Christians? Like the deniers of today? Fact is, there was no dispute launched against the authenticity of the Christians. In fact undisputed history showed us that many of them choose to die for their faith – they choose to remain loyal to God and His Christ rather than worship the emperor. Would such faithful men, women – young and old be willing to give up their lives if Christ never existed?

Then there's the comments made by historian H.G Wells:

“The historian’s test of an individual’s greatness is ‘What did he leave to grow? Did he start men to thinking along fresh lines with a vigor that persisted after him?’ By this test Jesus stands first.”

Is there someone in the history books past and present ever achieved what Jesus Christ achieved and still achieving?

Continuing...

H.G Wells -

“It is interesting and significant that a historian, without any theological bias whatever, should find that he cannot portray the progress of humanity honestly without giving a foremost place to a penniless teacher from Nazareth. . . . A historian like myself, who does not even call himself a Christian, finds the picture centering irresistibly around the life and character of this most significant man.”

The reference work The Historians’ History of the World observed:

“The historical result of [Jesus’] activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the chief civilisations of the world, dates from his birth.”

Question:

Could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably?

So it is not because there are no records of his existence (in the secular world) – it is because there's not much abundance of records documenting his existence that is being questioned. But that alone is not a valid reason to doubt his existence.

Note one of the most recognized generals said about him:

Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence.” – Napoléon Bonaparte

That's why up to now there's no one can surpass Jesus Christ as the Greatest Man who ever EXISTED!


Ty,
edmc2

ps

There's more info here:




[edit on 7-9-2010 by edmc^2]

Sigh...
I really have begun to hate these threads.
One begins to read them, hoping for some kind of intelligence, only to see them quickly descend into schoolyard taunts.
Someone tried to make a point about Christ.
--A Judaic post--

--An athiest weighs in, usually insulting every Christian with some withering retort about all Christians believing in "fairy tales" while the athiest is a much more evolved and intelligent person, more spiritually in tune with their inner self....

--Someone else posts crap, just trying to egg on a fight, nothing to say--

--Yes!! A zinger about Catholics, usually involving pedophilia or the antichristic Pope! That's original!!--

--The Bible is a mythical, fictional book that we are all brainwashed with--

Why bother? Really.
No one can even make a real, reasoned argument for Christ's existence in a thread anymore. Too much hatred, sarcasm, and juvenile antics.

Suffice to say that is it too much outside the realm of possibility that we are still all talking about a poor carpenter who was born over 2000 years ago and died at age 33? We apparently divided our age of time over His birth- B.C and A.D... until very recently, that is... why would we do this?

God Bless~

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by frozenspark

 

Is there someone in the history books past and present ever achieved what Jesus Christ achieved and still achieving?

Continuing...

H.G Wells -

I would suggest Romulus and Remus. They were the sons of the God Mars, were raised by wolves, and founded Rome. The rulers of this empire forced people to believe in the myth of Christianity or they killed them. One religion invented by the state to control the people. I give Romulus and Remus much more credibility than Jesus.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by BillfromCovina]

reply to post by OldThinker

Let's think about things if he hadn't...hmm…..A world with out Jesus? How would slaves fair? Not Good! Yes, it’s true we Christians allowed slavery in the American past. This was an erroneous belief.

What the hell ??? Are you serious ?

So, because the world is as it is, however that may be, this is evidence that jesus existed ? Duh.

Yes there is plenty of evidence that jesus son of joseph existed, indeed there was plenty of them hanging out in the first century.

Did the jesus of the new testament exist ? Well there is no evidence that this dude was a real person . Please don't go on to insult our intelligence with because millions of people believe it and that he is the most written about man on the planet he must be real.


If the same reasoning that is applied to verify the historicity of the godman jesus is applied to any other charter, then we can safely say that Batman and Smurfman are are real.


I would like to touch on the other comments you made such as slavery but this would (as you have a habit of doing OT) detract from the task at hand which is to seek evidence of the reality of jesus.

Needless to say there is nothing new coming in so jesus is as equally imaginary today as he was last week.

Unless of course there are any apologists out there who have something new to bring to the table .

reply to post by frozenspark


I'll say.. probably..
But I haven't seen conclusive evidence.

reply to post by thegoodearth

The Bible is a mythical, fictional book that we are all brainwashed with-- Why bother? Really. No one can even make a real, reasoned argument for Christ's existence in a thread anymore.

Why not try ? But keep it reasoned, and also provide evidence and give us your word that when you've finished you won't fall back on the old "It's all a matter of faith " trick.

reply to post by The Djin


Here Goes~

As a Christian, I do believe and assert Jesus Christ ascended bodily into Heaven.
Therefore, as that also is supported by the Bible, which is the main documentation of His life on Earth, there is no body as evidentiary support.
(and no, I do not buy into the rubbish of the Da Vinci code conspiracy and the 'supposed' body of Christ found in the 80's, there were too many scientific errors with that, even if I wasn't a Christian.)
As the Bible has survived, the apocryphal writings and the Old & New Testaments, over the course of thousands of years... it is quite astonishing the amount of text that refers to Jesus Christ. The Gospels of the New Testament, of course, as well as many references in the Old. The Old Testament is revealed in the New.

Even taking the Bible somewhat out of the picture for a moment, though, you have the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which in Sacred Scripture, Jesus Christ instituted as His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to live among His people on Earth.

Now, this is a point of contention, even among Christians. Many believe it is a "symbol", and not the True Presence. (That is an argument for another thread entirely).

How can one explain the Eucharistic Miracles on Earth that occur if Jesus Christ did not exist, and did not institute His Sacrament of the Eucharist?

In only one instance, one of the better known ones, Lanciano- 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size after the Priest consecrated it in front of the congregation during the Mass.
These are still able to be viewed today. They were then documented and examined immediately.
The most incomprehensible fact is that the most recent investigation into these particles revealed that not only were they all the exact same weight, but the Host was comprised of FRESH, LIVE cardiac tissue. The Precious blood samples were fresh, live blood samples.
The scientists that conducted the testing were not Catholic. They were astounded at their findings.
Blood and tissue samples rapidly degenerate after exposure to air. They do not display live characteristics, especially after not being in any preservative medium, and certainly not after centuries of storage.

This is only one of MANY, MANY Eucharistic Miracles that have occurred over the centuries. There have been many in the 20th century as well. On videotape, even, where the faithful have received the Eucharist and it has turned into a living Host on their tongue... Therese Neumann lived for 34 years on the Eucharist alone and was healthy. She didn't even drink water.

This is a departure from the usual Biblical recitations of why to believe Jesus Christ existed, I know.

However, in the Bible, He said,
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh"

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

"I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My Blood will have Eternal life."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves."

Therefore, I believe that, if Jesus Christ had not existed, then the Eucharistic Miracles could not occur. How could they? It makes no sense.

How can a person sustain life on ten calories a day, and no water, for over 30 years?
How can unleavened bread and wine become cardiac tissue and type AB blood?

At any rate, I hope I at least made you ponder a little.
And not just give you the usual stuff.
Sigh...now if you'd like, I will trot out all the Bible stuff, and the early Church father stuff too. Just thought I would give a new look at one of my mainstays.
God Bless~

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...



This video is subtitled, but really good, a scientific view...
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by frozenspark


This is what I believe, spark:

I believe that Jesus walked this earth, but I have no proof.

However, I believe in the values that apparently Jesus taught, which are -
Forgive, love, and do no harm.

So, whether or not He existed (and I believe He did), we can't go wrong following those teachings.

Also some great thinker, I forget who, said that no human could have come up with all of those things about another human - true.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
The person talked about in the bible did not exist. How could he? Christian scholars today say that his name would not have been Jesus. Therefore Jesus did not exist.

Which Christian scholars? Secular scholar G.A. Wells believes that Jesus is historical due to Q.

reply to post by thegoodearth

As a Christian, I do believe and assert Jesus Christ ascended bodily into Heaven.

Why ?

Jesus is actually mentioned by the followers of John the baptist.

They call Jesus 'the deciever-messiah'

reply to post by thegoodearth

As the Bible has survived, the apocryphal writings and the Old & New Testaments, over the course of thousands of years... it is quite astonishing the amount of text that refers to Jesus Christ.

Survived ? You mean copied and edited of course.

Considering the New Testament was composed some centuries after the alleged events and the earliest gospel would have been 50 odd years after the alleged life of one JC then there is no more to be astonished about than references to Horus or Appollo.

The Gospels of the New Testament, of course, as well as many references in the Old. The Old Testament is revealed in the New.

There is no mention of one Jesus son of Joseph in the old testament , no doubt a very good reason why jews reject chrisitianity.

I note you've not mentioned who the authors are of your new testament please enlighten me and provide evidence.


Reading the name jesus or the title christ in books compiled several hundred years and even thousands after the alleged events took place when this is no historical account of said charcaters and events. Is no more astonishing than being born in the year 3010 and finding some paraphernalia making reference to Batman.

The Most Wonderful Allegory of All Time


Now, before I take this on, I need to make one statement up front – I love the person of Jesus, and I love the notion of Jesus walking on the earth 2,000 years ago. To me, Jesus the human character, was the quintessential example of what humanity should aspire to, and to love Jesus and want to be like Jesus is the finest commitment that a person can make. That said, the story of Jesus, as presented in the gospels, is too rich with symbolism to ignore, and I am just not able to ignore that aspect of it. I've never been able to.

When I began to suspect that the biblical Jesus was possibly an allegory, it distressed me. I struggled to find some level of disinterested evidence that would allow me to sit back and leave that debate up to those who enjoy debate, while I simply enjoyed a full knowledge that Jesus’ historical presence had been established once and for all. Of course, that never occurred, but something else did occur. I began to see Jesus as something larger and more important than a carpenter who lived in Judea during the first century. While people battled with each other over whether he had actually lived, and if he did, then whether he'd actually been God’s Son sent to Earth to straighten out a mess that only He could straighten out – that this fix could only be made through His death and resurrection – I was beginning to see Jesus as a much more universally significant figure in the history of humankind. Certainly greater than a doomed repairman sent to clean up a mess that a breakdown in the relationship between God and humankind had made of everything.

In this segment, I'm going to share with you the way that I view Jesus and the gospel story. For the sake of trying not to inspire the wrath of the devout, I’ve decided that if I refer to the person of Jesus as an abstract concept, I will call that abstract concept THE JESUS. This way, it’ll be obvious that I’m not attempting to make a statement concerning the validity of the actual historic person named Jesus. I know that I have no authority to make a statement like that. No one does.

The truth is that a person named Jesus could have lived, taught and died in exactly the manner described in the gospels, and yet the narrative of His life and ministry could still be the same parabolic allegory about the struggle for God’s truth to find a stable home in the mind of each human being. In other words, the human Jesus could have lived a real life that served as that allegory expressed in corporeal representation – with the flesh and blood Jesus representing THE JESUS within the larger function of that allegory concerning the importance of God’s creation information that rests within The Residual’s Informational Continuum. I'm not saying it did happen that way, but I am saying it’s not impossible. Other folks can work to prove or disprove the historic aspects of the narrative.

The Residual’s Primacy Is Declared

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:1-5

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us… John 1:14

This may be the most important collection of words that has ever been preserved by humanity. With this statement, the specific intent of God – The Word – not only became the direct authority in the daily lives of the human being at the individual level, it was declared to be available and perceivable by the average human being. No longer could any king simply declare himself to be the ultimate authority. Well, he could, and many did, but in the heart and mind of the Christian initiate, if such authority was granted – for whatever temporary reason – it was granted by the God of heaven and earth.

This was powerful stuff for its time, and it put the final authority – of course, only to the followers of this theology – in the hands of the deity itself, taking it away from any human kings or emperors. The permanent authority was God’s intent expressed as information – The Word – and that information described what the characteristics of a righteous life – and by extension, a righteous rule – looks like. The information took on the crown of absolute authority, and did so as The Word of God, which was the title given to the personification of that information – THE JESUS. You couldn’t fight the information, or The Word. This was The Word of God, and THE JESUS, that was The Word made flesh.

And that was just the start. The narrative is brilliantly crafted, and the metaphors are wonderfully threaded throughout the entire story. I’ll (encase) my own interpretations of those metaphors, since they flow pretty heavy in some areas.

(to be continued)

[edit on 9/7/2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by NorEaster


The Word of God as Flesh

Now, as John’s first chapter declares, The Word “became flesh, and dwelt among us”. The Word, as is described further in the Gospel of John, has the full physical authority of God the Father as it reaches out, with that power and authority, through THE JESUS as He experiences the corporeal realm of the human being on Earth. It is declared that it was through The Word that God created everything in the first place, regardless of what else has been claimed. Now, this reaching out – this actually causing The Word to incarnate – was about establishing this final and ultimate description of God’s authoritative message, and declaring all other messages to be null and void. The net effect was that The Word was to be God’s own perceptible and presentable authority on Earth concerning all matters related to His relationship with humanity.

In this relative context, God’s Holy Spirit (The Residual infomation mass itself) would be considered the Masculine expression of The Father, since what is being presented to the human race is this final and authoritative truth concerning its real relationship with God. The Holy Spirit actually contains The Word, and makes it available to the human mind - to take that truth and make that truth its own - internalizing it as knowledge and a full realization. Now, the gospel writer understood that each human mind has its own mechanism and capacity for interpretation of information, and that no two minds perceive the same information in the same way. That internalization of The Word – by way of personal interpretation – is what the phrase “made flesh and dwelt among us” refers to.

In the gospel narrative, the ultimate Feminine archetype (Mary, the Madonna) metaphorically represents the open, receptive human mind. The Holy Spirit, of course, represents The Residual – containing that authoritative information concerning everything related to the God-human relationship (who we actually are, what we actually are, who God really is, and why God created us and this entire reality). It’s written that the Holy Spirit comes and impregnates (exposes) Mary (the human mind) with God’s divine essence (God’s actual authoritative information itself in raw data form), and Mary (the human mind) gives birth (internalizes via personal interpretation) to the “child” (that resulting personal interpretation) who then dwelt among us (was offered to others as transformative information meant to affect their lives). If we look at John’s account, he refers to the offspring of that God-human mating – THE JESUS – as a being that is both divine and human in essence – which, as an allegory of the factual synthesis of God’s information and humanity’s interpretation of it, it is.

The gospels calls the child Jesus, (I’ll be referring to THE JESUS instead) and each goes into great length about the ministry of the grown human male. It’s clear that the day-to-day effort of THE JESUS involved teaching the human race about God, and the relationship between God and Man. This is critical to keep in mind, even as the modern Christian faith focuses primarily on the sacrifice of THE JESUS, and the resulting establishment of the discipline that arose in response to that sacrifice. THE JESUS spent all but the final day of this ministry in the constant effort to teach the human race, and this means that the principle reason for this birth and ministry was to teach humanity of God’s intent, and make God’s plan widely available to the rest of the human race.

As far as the author of the gospel narrative is concerned, the positive impact of that information (The Word) is miraculous, as it touches the human being that is “blind’, “lame” and otherwise afflicted due to its ignorance of it (The Word) and what it brings to the human condition through the very fact of what it is – the truth of the human being’s priceless and eternal relationship with God. In this narrative, THE JESUS (the human mind’s internalization of The Word) gives sight to the blind, renewed life to the dead, and fullness of function to the lame, through acceptance of what it is as the truth of God’s plan involving humankind. These are the signs and wonders that THE JESUS performs in the Christian narrative, and this is what transforms that information into the phenomenon that it becomes in that narrative.

(one more segment)

[edit on 9/7/2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by NorEaster


Son of God – Son of Man


Of course, as one would expect, this new information is very different than the established truth of the day, and THE JESUS becomes targeted as a subversive element to be monitored and investigated. The established leadership picks at it with intellectual and philosophical challenges, and is stunned when THE JESUS hits back with overwhelming clarity – in fact, besting their old truth before witnesses in public incidents of confrontation.

This, as one would expect, is the natural struggle that any new truth has in its effort to supplant an established truth, and this is the sole mission of a new truth, if that new truth has any mission at all. Its ministry is to establish itself as the accepted truth, and THE JESUS continues that ministry with signs and wonders for a period of one to three years until finally rendezvousing with its ultimate destiny, a showdown in the home of ideas and truths for that specific culture in its day, Jerusalem.

It’s here, in Jerusalem, that THE JESUS – this new understanding of the truth concerning the relationship between God and Man (notice that I’m not referring to the relationship between God and humanity - since Man is the fullness of God's people as one entity) is given its greatest and most consequential challenge. In fact, in this challenge, the attempt is made to divert THE JESUS onto the small focus of corporeal concerns and societal authority, with a dramatic account of an Apostle falling victim to this distraction of focus and, as a result, betraying THE JESUS within the Garden of Gethsemane.

It’s then that this ministry is put through its most extreme test to date. THE JESUS is arrested, beaten, scourged, and The Word is rejected as heresy by the very people it came to serve, and for the simple fact of refusing to serve them as their corporeal salvation during their infinitely transient journey through existence as flesh and blood beings. THE JESUS, this human realization of the familial love between God and Man, is finally crucified in the most repugnant and public method known at the time, and is tossed into a borrowed tomb, a failure in its effort to challenge, and best, the powerful, but erroneous, established truth concerning humanity’s role in God’s plan.

But, then, in three days THE JESUS overcomes the death it suffered, and becomes the full ethereal embodiment of the all-powerful and immortal truth that can’t be killed off by any means. It transcends the corporeal, and become the bridge between corporeal humanity and its ultimate relationship with the divine authority that brought it into existence. The human being’s realization of the truth of God’s intent, acting as the eternal connection between God, the creator, and corporeal humanity, the created.

Seems obvious as a wonderfully effective lesson, but there are people who will bristle if presented with Jesus as metaphoric allegory. Even though Jesus, himself, rarely taught in ways other than parables. It’s only fitting that the personage of Jesus shares the same existential structure as his entire ministry. That of truth in a desperate struggle for accurate interpretation.

If the gospel narrative was the inspiration of someone or some ones who translated this inspired information, and possibly (I said possibly) preserved it in the best way they knew how, then the sheer genius of it is beyond stunning. In fact, it becomes even more significant in this light and more important as a possible information link between Earth’s humanity and the eternal realm.

[edit on 9/7/2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by NorEaster

I love the person of Jesus,

Please feel free to go into detail, how is it possible to follow the command of loving an invisible man ?

Have you met this man that you love ?

Does this man that you love speak to you, hug you etc ?

Are you a man ? If you are, are you gay or bisexual ?

Do you love this man more than your spouse or your children if you haev either ?

If this man told you to kill me , would you -

A) Do it straight away unquestioningly ?

B) Struggle with even contemplating such a repugnant act ?

C) See a doctor ?


You claim to love the "Person of Jesus" , interestingly enough , in British law a Person is defined as a "Fiction".

reply to post by NorEaster

In this segment, I'm going to share with you the way that I view Jesus and the gospel story.

Clearly then, the writers (inspirer) was/is a very poor communicator if he/she/it left so much room for differnt takes on the alleged same truth.

Have you not considered even remotely the possibility that the bibles were written by pens of very imaginative controlling men ?

reply to post by The Djin


You seem distressed. Did you read the post at all? I go into great detail about the fact that I can't assert that Jesus did exist as a human being. This is the only issue I have with some board members. They seem to only be interested in expressing themselves, and not in reading other people's ideas. That's too bad. There's a lot to learn on a site like this one.

[edit on 9/7/2010 by NorEaster]

Originally posted by The Djin
Have you not considered even remotely the possibility that the bibles were written by pens of very imaginative controlling men ?

I actually believe that The Church was established to allow the ruling elite of the dying Roman Empire to migrate their power structure into a bureaucratic infrastructure that would give them the same level of power, the same ruling class status, and would give them that authority without having to pay for a massive army and bother with societal governance.

The Senators became Cardinals, the Governors became Bishops and the Emperor got himself a big pointy hat and became Pope. That empire changed its business model, but the products and services haven't changed much in the last 2,000 years.

I'm not ignorant of how humanity destroys everything it touches.