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A Culture of Lying

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posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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It seems that people accept as normal that people lie. When trapped, people do lie.

But what about lying for convenience to people we have a relationship with or a responsibility to - to avoid having to deal with an embarrassment or an annoyance? Or to get people to do what's in your interest but not theirs? Or for ego gratification?

We know that the "elite" believe in the "noble lie." But do ordinary people believe in it as well? I'm beginning to suspect they do. I say "they" because I am averse to lying. I really don't want to be lied to and I lie only when I think I have to or I think it's forgiven under the circumstances.

I think we have a culture of lying. It's disturbing to me. It's as if we're being lied to by the powers that be because that's what we all accept as perfectly okay. Shrug. Who cares?

I do.




posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:39 AM
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Your a hypocrit, thats all there is to it realy. You cant pick and choose when its ok to lie, you have to accept your going to have to decieve people at some point and be done with it.

The problem isnt actualy lying, its a useful tool, all this you must be honest at all times bull# more or less seems like a scam perpatrated to trap us. The real problem is WHY you choose to lie.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 



But what about lying for convenience to people we have a relationship with or a responsibility to - to avoid having to deal with an embarrassment or an annoyance? Or to get people to do what's in your interest but not theirs? Or for ego gratification




I'd be be lying if I said I've never lied. I lied last week to my partner, I told him that the bottle of wine that I brought home was bought by my boss as a present and I couldn't really say no. I'd actually bought it myself, on the way home from a spectacularly crap day at work. My partner doesn't like me to drink, and I don't often, out of respect for his wishes, but sometimes..well. I felt at the time, a lie was better at keeping the peace and would make him more prone to forgive me when I got drunk later that evening. It worked. He blamed my boss
.

Sometimes a lie is better at keeping the peace then the truth.

I don't know if that makes it justifiably less immoral, or dishonorable, but it just is one of those things, ya know?

Thing is, even lies that are said with the best of intentions have a habit of coming back to bite you in the behind. For that reason, I keep it at an extreme minimum. I think the last time I lied before the wine incident was the "how many men have you slept with" question at the begining of our relationship over five years ago.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Mary Rose
I really don't want to be lied to and I lie only when I think I have to or I think it's forgiven under the circumstances.

I think we have a culture of lying. It's disturbing to me. It's as if we're being lied to by the powers that be because that's what we all accept as perfectly okay.


I really don't get what it is you want from this post.

You state you're against lying and that it disturbs you, that you dislike people who lie to achieve certain results/goals. Yet you yourself state you lie "only when I think I have to".

Why are your situations for lying "ok" but the rest of ours are not? What makes your lies any more acceptable than the rest of society?

I lie all the time. I lie about how I feel, what I'm thinking, whether I like you (I do) or the people I meet and work with, about my history, my experiences, etc. *I* believe them to be valid lies as it allows life to continue in a relatively comfortable and communal fashion.

What if we all started speaking honestly? What if you agreed with your wife when she asked you if she looked fat? Or when your child asks you if the unintelligble painting they made looks good? Or if the police officer asks you if you were speeding when you were? How would any of that help society become a better place?

I'm keen to know exactly what/where/when you believe a lie is acceptable and where it is not.


[edit on 6-9-2010 by noonebutme]



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:54 AM
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Mendacity is a system we live in


~Tennessee Williams; Cat on a Hot Tin Roof~


All warfare is based on deception


~Sun Tzu; The Art of War~


A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a lot of explanations.


~Saki~


There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it.


~William James~


A man would rather have a hundred lies told of him than one truth which he does not wish should be known.


~Samuel Johnson~


Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well.


~Samuel Butler~


The liar's punishment is not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe anyone else.


~George Bernard Shaw~


The cruelest lies are often told in silence.


~Robert Louis Stephenson~

The culture of lying is universal and has been with us since time immemorial.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 09:57 AM
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I try to avoid lying very much. Even the little white lies. Not going so well for me. I tend to disappoint people when I don't tell them what they want to hear.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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Note that venerable proverb: Children and fools always speak the truth. The deduction is plain: adults and wise persons never speak it.



Almost all lies are acts, and speech has no part in them.



The lie, as a virtue, a principle, is eternal; the lie, as a recreation, a solace, a refuge in time of need, the fourth Grace, the tenth Muse, man's best and surest friend is immortal.


Mark Twain



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


You forgot one...


"It's not a Lie, if you believe it."
- George Costanza







posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:07 AM
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When you hear references to "losing your Soul" or "Selling your Soul to the Devil", it seems so Fairy Tale-like. Most people do not even know their Soul let alone know they are losing it.

Some say that children natural lie as a means of coping with information that is not fully presented, information that is not fully understood. They "fill in the gaps" so to speak. However, I believe that parents lie from the moment they teach their children to speak, not in so much it is a "big lie" but in that they only tell half-truths because they feel the smaller person hasn't the capacity to understand the truth. So children are learning from those around them how to lie and silly adults think that children are naturally liars.

There was a time when it was understood that "Children are brutally Honest", but I really do not hear folks say that anymore.

It is true that our Society as a whole has become nothing but Big Fat Liars, even now when they are caught lying it is treated as normal or acceptable. They always try to make an example out of one but let so many get away with it over and over again. They do this because they all know they are all guilty of lying and deceiving on the same levels.

Demons attach to humans by way of the lie. This is how they feed off of our Soul, this is how we become the attachments of Demons. Society thinks that it is acting in a prescribed manner in which to better itself, but this is one of the biggest lies, it has become its own Psychotic. Society is slowly being dragged through lies and deceit to the point where it has become counter to anything healthy. Lies about our food, lies about our water, lies about our Environment. All contrived so that we pay up and owe some more while living the Big Fat Lie.

Satan is Society and through Satan we find possession by Demons. Saving your Soul is easy, just stop lying and those that attach will let go, those that do not will face the abyss with their Masters.

I am not lying! It is that simple... Just stop Lying.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by noonebutme
 


It's acceptable when it does no harm, and telling the truth might do harm.

The ones I'm lamenting over are the ones that are unnessary and do harm. In each case, it is a judgment call.

Surely you do know what I'm talking about. I think you probably do.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by Johnze
 


Reading your reply, I don't think you read my OP very attentively. How about re-reading it?



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:21 AM
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I try very hard not to lie. It embarrasses me when I do, makes me terribly unconfortable, and as I grow older I am tending to forget things, so I fear I may get caught in a lie. That is most embarrassing of all.

I do not like white lies - or good lies that are meant to "make people feel better" or to "keep the peace as posted by the wine drinking lady, and I can explain why and how to get around it.

First off, especially in a relationship, it may come out one night at the Corporate Christmas party about how the boss bought the wine, and the husband is against drinking, and wanted to let the boss know in a friendly joking way. The bosses surprise may expose the truth. Now that would be involving more people, cause more embarrassment, and be costly in more ways than being honest would have been.

Lying causes hurt and betrayal. It is hard, especially in relationships, to deal with betrayal on any level. Loss of trust is hard to overcome. The only way to appreciate that really is to become the victim of lying. If one is uncovered, then the person being lied to becomes suspicious to the point that "Maybe our whole relationship is a lie?"

Instead, I find it more courteous and respectful to be honest. "I had a terrible day at work, and I need to unwind. Share a glass with me and lets sit and talk for a while." This may have fostered some closeness in the relationship. Instead, the poster feared the worst without really knowing, but assuming they would know the outcome. If an argument ensued, then so be it, you still have the wine that comforts you more than the relationship seems to, so whats the loss?

On the same vein, you can be honest with someone without hurting them. When someone says, "Does this dress make me look fat?" you can reply something like, "I love the way it makes your eyes shine, you are so beautiful to me." You *can* find something positive to say, and take their mind off the fat thing. What they are really asking is along the lines of, "Do you still find me attractive? I know I have gained some weight..."

People talk in code, but the one universal code is: Lying is bad and usually causes more problems that it is worth. Not to mention, you best be certain you can remember every lie, because it will catch up to you sooner or later.

It is a much nicer life to be kinder and gentler to people and to be honest even it causes trouble. The trouble can be dealt with, and if not there are worse problems in the relationship than the bottle of wine. If you don't lie, you don't have to worry!



[edit on 6-9-2010 by Libertygal]



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by Merigold
 


Merigold,

Your honesty in sharing your personal experience is very refreshing!! Thanks for sharing!




posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Mary Rose
reply to post by noonebutme
 


It's acceptable when it does no harm, and telling the truth might do harm.

The ones I'm lamenting over are the ones that are unnessary and do harm. In each case, it is a judgment call.

Surely you do know what I'm talking about. I think you probably do.



But don't you think the only lie that does no harm is the lie yet undiscovered?

I think all lies are unecessary, and most particularly in relationships. My children knew at a very young age that Santa wasn't "real", but what we espoused in them was the spirit of Santa Clause, the giving, and what that means. They still went to be totally excited because "Santa" was coming, and they were just as excited to see their daddy and me open presents from them as they were to be getting things, too.

I think it all has more to do with tact and implementation of the truth, and the maturity to know the difference and the skill to confront those uncomfortable situations head on. Most of the time people do not ask us to lie to them, we choose to do it. If telling the truth makes them uncomfortable, they shouldn't ask you for the truth.

I do know what you are talking about, but I have to disagree that there are harmless lies. All lies, once discovered, hurt on some level. You can only hope that your definition of "white lies" equal that of the person you lied to. If not, you could lose friendships or spouses over it. For some people, betrayal is a very deep wound.

Personally, when I lament over a weight gain, and someone says to me, "Oh! You are NOT fat!" I get a bit put off at them obviously lying. I know the truth, and didn't ask them to lie, but they felt compelled to on some level - that it was somehow necessary? However, in my view it lessened my opinion over them.

If a person is willing to lie about one thing, what else have they lied about? Thing is, what you call reasonable or harmless may not be in their book, and you have no way of knowing that.

Usually when I catch someone in a lie, it is not long before - after observing them talk to other people - that I discover they lie relentlessly, and seemingly without conviction. Not someone I would want to know.

After I married my first husband, I discovered over time he was not just a liar, but a pathological one. He lied about what we had for dinner, or when his parents asked what we did last night. It was meaningless and useless. It disgusted me to the point that it was one of the main reasons I divorced him. Afterall, what else had he lied about?



[edit on 6-9-2010 by Libertygal]



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


You are making excellent points.

One "harmless" lie I had in mind was lying when someone asks, "Do you like it?" and a person feels on the spot. But I like your argument about finding tactful ways to tell the truth.

Another lie I had in mind is lying to a store clerk. I did this once when I returned a pair of jeans that shrank after I washed them.

Another circumstance that I might lie in would be claiming not to know where someone is to an authority figure if I sensed the authority figure was not trustworthy.

But I love your commitment to truthfulness in relationships. One of the experiences I've had that I had in mind when I started this thread was an anecdote my older sister told me about lying to her husband because she thought he would be embarrassed if she told the truth. That bothers me. I think the truth is more important than avoiding embarrassment. Much more important. Dealing with the truth is what life is all about.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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Regardless the reason for the lie, I see it as the 'road not taken'.

If we lie we will never, ever truly know where we were supposed to be, who we were supposed to be with, what life truly had in store for us, etc.

One little lie can and does change our whole life.

Then what?

We'll live that lie the rest of our lives.

THAT is VERY scary.

I do my best not to lie.
If I do, I do all in power to 'fix it'.

No, not that I am holier than thou or a prude, but simply, I want to know what my TRUE path, the TRUTH PATH in life is - and that means I only have one road to choose.

Truth.

peace



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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Can I be brutally honest with you here?

No, please just tell me a big, fat, lie.

(Rant follows


How ridiculous is that?
What purpose is served by lying to anyone?
I realize that's very much the question of the OP, but why would anyone ask a question if they didn't need correct information? (aside from rhetorical, which this question is)

I think people, in general, talk too much. Why else would they ask questions knowing the answer was going to be a lie?
"Do I look fat in this dress?"
An honest answer may earn you an extra half hour wait, but if "you can't handle the truth", don't ask the question.

"It's just conversation."
Crap. As guilty as I am of the same thing here, people stroke their own ego by holding others hostage with questions with no good answer, and un-asked-for answers.
Is it a person's neediness that creates the urge to "chat"?
I think so.
I think it's a crutch for a person's ego to think that they can hold someone's attention away from their own thoughts.
I think it's the reason the cellphone companies need to offer "unlimited" everything plans.
People need to drop their cellphones and get used to their own thoughts, instead of incessant yakking for the sake of listening to their own noise.



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 01:01 PM
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The danger is not in the lie but in the ability of those lied to, to accept the lie as truth.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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It's really a requirement that you're good at lying to be successful in this country, I really think so. And dealing with BS, which I think go hand in hand. If you're a good liar, you're probably good at dealing with BS....hence the lying


Families seem to be lying to each other even. Real communication between family members seems a rarity as well.


Lying is sort of a cop out though, on a random note, George Carlin would never lie in the way some people do. "Tell the truth, there's enough BS as it is" in his words.

[edit on 6-9-2010 by ghaleon12]



posted on Sep, 6 2010 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by ghaleon12
It's really a requirement that you're good at lying to be successful in this country, I really think so.


I want a new paradigm!



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