Is physicist Stephen Hawking right that physics, not God, created the universe?

reply to post by 547000


Depends what you mean by personal experience....

Did God poke you and say "hey, it's me the creator of the universe"

Did you "feel" his/her or it's presense?

Did you follow his lovely 10 commandments and you somehow thought you had been rewarded for doing so?

Of course you had a personal experience, to the believer in God, God is completely subjective, some people light shining through the branches of tree onto them is God, people use the word God to comfort them.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


It proves nothing to people who don't believe you. Why should it prove to others anything in order to be true? It can be true and unprovable at the same time.

Problems:

1) Physics and God aren't the only possibilities.
2) Being "religious" doesn't mean you can't also think like a scientist.
3) And vice versa.

There's a lot more to being "religious" or a "believer" than the opinions you have about certain scientific theories. A lot of scientists also have religious beliefs. The two spheres of knowledge, in many ways, complement each other.

But when either side gets too dogmatic, you get controversy.
Well, what's the purpose of that controversy? To clarify the situation, or to confuse people and create upsets between them?

So, I say, to hell with the controversy. If you keep studying and don't fall down one of the dogmatic rabbit holes, chances are you might even find data that reconciles the whole mess. But that's up to you. I wouldn't want you to loose all your friends just on account of wanting to learn the truth!

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

 

It proves nothing to people who don't believe you. Why should it prove to others anything in order to be true? It can be true and unprovable at the same time.

That's redundant then! Shouldn't we discuss the Bible instead of personal experience? When I used to go to many Churches we discuss personal experiences and sing praise songs more then discuss the Bible as a group. Churches find it easier now to take money using imagery as a result.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Well, it's not blind faith if you know there is a higher power due to personal experience. It's blind faith if you believe without reason to.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


My point was something can be true and unprovable at the same time. But I guess you missed it completely because you wanted to discuss the Bible instead. Go to BTS and discuss it there if you want to. I'm talking about religious experiences, not the Bible.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by 547000]

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

 

My point was something can be true and unprovable at the same time. But I guess you missed it completely because you wanted to discuss the Bible instead. Go to BTS and discuss it there if you want to. I'm talking about religious experiences, not the Bib;le.

Well the Bible is supposed to be the ultimate experience for God. In Judaism the event at Mount Sinai was the natural experience with God and his convent with the Jewish people. The same could be said with Christianity and Islam.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to be the ultimate experience of God.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

 

I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to be the ultimate experience of God.

Well that is hard to explain. There is so much we can learn about God, Holy, The Holy Spirit and everything else. Search sites for teachings on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three would be great help for you to understand your questions. Because they have so many great answers from Biblical and Koranic text.

reply to post by 547000


What really is the Holy Spirit though? It could be different things to different people.

There is no proof of "nothing". It simply does not exist, because we can not measure it.

I'm open to answers, but we can not answer these questions with stagnant terminology. We must look for newer ways to explain our reality system. "God" and "nothing" are just as old as each other.

Time to grow up.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Well, if we go with what the bible says, it's a divine spirit that comforts people and leads them to understand things. In my experience, which was during a period of immense grief, I felt the presence of a light in the room, and next thing I knew I was filled with it and radiating that same light, and with it pure bliss and love. I instantly felt in love with the world, and much, much better. When it was gone, I was no longer in grief.

Mind you, the feelings I received were "not of this world". I've never felt anything like it before or ever since, and I doubt I'll ever feel anything like it until I die. It was divine love, not human love.

I don't think this proves that the UK is not a "Christian country" nor do I think it proves anything about religion whatsoever.

It sais that Hawking has an opinion on the matter and that he's speaking it.

This is Stephen Hawking after all. It's not like he doesn't know people are going to disagree with him!

The problem here is that there is a misconception that by understanding the beginnings of our universe that it will tell us whether or not god exists. That simply isn't true.

For starters, some religious people might believe that through understanding what really happened when the universe was created that they would be vindicated. But this belief would, inevitably, be based on what those people already believe! And what happens if science eventually proves religious beliefs about creation all wrong? Science is always going to be cast aside by people of religious faith if scientific conclusions are not exactly what those people beleive, regardless of what proof there is. Some might eventually come around and say "OK, I was wrong". But how likely is that exactly?

Second, many scientists and physicists now think there are other dimensions or universes beyond our own and that dark matter might be gravity "bleeding" through to our universe from a parallel one more or less superimposed over ours. Maybe god didn't create our universe but did create a separate universe in another dimension that resulted in ours being created.

Third, aside from the idea of parallel universes in other dimensions, there may already be billions, trillions, maybe more separate universes out there all coexisting within whatever medium separates them. Maybe god didn't create our universe at all but DID create the multiverse that existed long before it.

I seriously doubt that science is ever going to tell us anything about god. At least not anytime soon. And even if it did, who would listen or care if it were to prove that either most or all the religions of the world were completely wrong?

Stephen Hawking understands that regardless of what he sais there are always going to be people that disagree with him.

IMO, the closest we could ever get would be by fully understanding paranormal activity right here on earth (which we don't). But even that wouldn't necessarily tell us anything about God.

There is nothing right or wrong about his statement, but I respect it because I respect him. Even though I believe a higher power exists in some form, that higher power may or may not have anything to do with this world/dimension and it is highly likely that God didn't have anything to do with the creation of our universe.

People think that by understanding the big-bang we are understanding God. That is totally and completely a man-made assumption.

-ChriS

Stephen Hawking has to give the non God answer to physics.
Thats his job.
Religion is the job of a different community of which they do not
spout things of physics.

There was an in between character Velikovsky.
Perhaps relating the works of creation for a planetary system.
Thats all we know from the past.

Now its telescopes and Hawking telling us things.

Originally posted by TeslaandLyne
Stephen Hawking has to give the non God answer to physics.
Thats his job.
Religion is the job of a different community of which they do not
spout things of physics.

There was an in between character Velikovsky.
Perhaps relating the works of creation for a planetary system.
Thats all we know from the past.

Now its telescopes and Hawking telling us things.

I believe he is honestly stating his opinion on the matter though. The reason I say this is because he's been pretty bold as of late when it comes to making public statements like this. It seems more like he's thought about all this stuff for a while and is just now speaking his mind when before he was too afraid to.

Even Stephen Hawking knows that nobody can ever argue one way or another and have a solid ground to stand on from a scientific standpoint. But you have to agree that it's plausible God had nothing to do with the birth of our universe.

Like I said earlier, even if we definitively understood the birth of our universe it would not necessarily tell us anything about God. That is completely a man-made assumption and nothing more.

The anthropic principle states that our universe and everything within it was created so perfectly and so orderly for us to be here on planet earth having this very discussion about it that our beginnings must have involved some kind of divine influence. But it can also be argued that this is an assumption and that our existence on planet earth is a huge cosmic accident.

In fact, if you were of the opinion that God didn't have anything to do with our being here, you would basically be backed up by science since we've seen no definitive fingerprint of the creator. We don't witness god spinning galaxies. We don't witness god creating stars and planetary systems. What we can say is that we do see the lack of any direct divine influence. I think this is basically Hawking's argument. Everything in our universe has an explanation even if we have a hard time understanding it all. Even if we somehow understood every process in the universe, there's nothing telling us we would be any closer to understanding God as the divine creator.

Regardless of what anyone believes philosophically, spiritually and/or religiously, it is always going to be more difficult to prove a creator exists than to prove it wasn't there to begin with.

Even if we had all the answers and we had definitive proof that God created the universe and Stephen Hawking was completely wrong.. It would only act to piss people off. IMO, spiritual beliefs seem to only act to cause disagreement, social disparity and armed conflict. No answer we could ever scientifically come to involving God will ever be good enough for everyone. Such a groundbreaking scientific discovery would cause more harm than good.

We all have the individual right to believe whatever we want about God but science will always clash with spiritual and faith-based ideaologies. Science could never prove one way or another which religion(s) are correct and which aren't. And even if we somehow we stumbled across something to prove who was right and who was wrong, it wouldn't matter.

If you are someone who is devout in your spiritual beliefs, you have every right to. But it also means that you can cherry-pick your facts. If scientific discoveries support your pre-existing beliefs, so be it. If a scientific discovery conflicts or otherwise proves your beliefs false, you can ignore it and chalk it up to atheist scientists who only exist to spread fear and hate. I've always wondered why a God argument even exists in science though, just like Stephen Hawking probably has. No scientific conclusion is ever going to be good enough for everyone, despite what exists to support it.

-ChriS

again
yes but i do believe in god
lets explain
physics created life then life created god

i think physics created scientists. scientists created science. science created physics, and all four of them realized the necessity for god.

666?

FIZZ SIX

seek writ = secret

fizz six = physics

compound words, i learned about them in the third grade from Mrs Yates. Thanks Mrs Yates

so...

Dear Stephen Hawking,
are you sure you are not just a retard in a chair, being held captive and used as a false flag beacon that is seducing those emotional behaviors and empathy that people love, and capitalizing on the opportunity to serve the martial law objectives that the planet is currently under?

seriously, Stephen, how far are you from your destination if the distance is no longer measurable by numbers?
how far are you from your destination if the distance is no longer measurable by numbers and letters?
how far are you from your desitnation if the distance is no longer measurable by numbers, letters, and symbols?

"Even if i knew the theory of everything i don't think i would tell anyone, because what would there be left for anyone else to do?" - Stephen Hawking

that is a confession, folks. even if he knew the answer, he would not share it.

he is like a member of a track team who refuses to pass the baton because he is convinced he already won the race, prior to any of his team members crossing the finish line.

way to be a team player Stephen


those are few of my negative thoughts on Steven Hawking. flame away at et. fine by me.

et

reply to post by Parallex


Just a few points of interest...

The British historically are pagans who honor nature and live in accordance with it. Not followers of a deity. It was only a matter of time before their genetics overruled social indoctrination. They need to find spirituality in their own way as a people now as true islanders.

Secondly if it was physics that created the universe, and not God. Who/What created physics? The issue I find with western religion is that they seek to turn the divine source into a sentient entity more resembling ourselves than some supreme being.

I believe that whatever the ultimate source is, that is God. If physics was the beginning, then physics is God. Hawking is merely attempting to eliminate divine nature, and turn the greatest thing in the known universe into a trivial formula.

I imagine it's all he has as a severely disabled individual. Eventually angst and hatred take over when the patience of reality runs out.

its a little bit of both

Lately mister SK said :
Stephen Hawking says we must flee Earth
or his latest comments about.. God didnt create Earth/Universe

I think he dont see a bigger picture here..
he his a wise man YES.. but not his latest comment..that was closeminded

It was FAITH that created this rare living planet called Earth
one of the most liveable planets ever created .. and we have a huge sun helping us...
EVERYTHING was perfectly alligned to create this "Heaven like" habitable planet that we call earth .. MOTHER EARTH

A little to FAR from the sun = makes the earth not liveable
A little to CLOSE to the sun = makes the earth not liveable

Earth was created in a none coincidential way or by someone powerfull..GOD .. our Father and Creator in the first place

just ask yourselfs ... the chances are very slim that earth popup up like this in the center of nowhere perfectly alligned to substain life... i have learned that coincidences like this ARE VERY RARE TO NO CHANCES OF HAPPENING EVER in millions of years
Faith created us ...and that everything was created for a purpose..
i dont know but somebody had this higher purpose good deal to create all of this beautifull heaven
is it simply coincidential ?

we cant possibly think that science created earth and the univers
we need to stay skeptic on this and open minded to balance things up
now we are to young to know what really created all of this
lets speculate without denying the powers of our Creator

thanks

reply to post by mryanbrown


Well said, fellow Phoenician. While I find organized religion to be an unfortunate part of humanity, I am spiritual. I look to science for answers to alot of things in life, but there is a driving energy behind everything in this universe, it's something I believe we all feel deep down and greedy people learned early to capitalize on that to manipulate and put themselves into power. That's how religion popped up, IMO. Everything has to begin somewhere, and there always has to be more on the other side. If you reach the end of the universe, what's on the other side? A wall? Infinite dark matter? For religious folks who believe in a conscious higher power, how did that being obtain that power? There HAS to be a beginning. I think people can only ponder so long before they call it quits and just pick a side....